Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DanaM on May 29, 2007, 02:04:48 pm
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Ok guys what yer take on a properly constructed bendy handle D bow? More specifically the handle area.
No cut-ins at the handle area no fades. I'm lost I guess on this one.
I've seen bendy handle pyramid bows posted on here that had fairly deep cut-ins.
Perhaps someone could post pics and enlighten me.
DanaM
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You're just taking a chance when you use a deep cut-in on a bendy handle bow. Not to say it won't work, just a higher probability that you'll see a crack develop in the fade that will travel into the limb.
For a bendy handle bow, you can either (1)not change the shape at all from the limbs, or (2) you can shape it modestly (like narrowing from 1.5" to 1.25") and over a couple inches on either side. Gradual narrowing, gradual thickening. This way you don't have a lot of fibers in one place that are cut off from the rest of the limb. Sometimes you leave this handle a bit stiffer too, a semi-bendy handle.
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If I make a bow that bends through the handle, I don't want to cut in a handle or fades at all, seems like a good place for a break to start. With most D-bows, the handle is usually the widest part of the bow. I have seen bows that bend slightly through the handle with narrow grips, like the west-coast NA designs, but they are usually heavily backed with sinew. You can get away with a narrower bow if it bends through the handle and is preferably a little long.
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Just saw the discussion on the other thread. I agree with Pat that you don't need 2" width on a bendy bow, even a white wood (OK pine is an exception). You're on the right track with the gradual change of shape, also leaving the handle area a bit stiff also helps some. More wood holding things together. Rounding edges also helps in my opinion. Again, this is changing where fibers end and staggering the ends a bit. It all helps.
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Thanks guys, I think I was trying for to much bend in the handle thats why it split.
Ain't making bows fun, as has been said before you learn more from the failures than the successes!
DanaM
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Dana......leave about 8 " in the handle area alone. Work rest of bow and then work 8" VERY slowly an carefully so it just barely bends. Forget handles. rests ,cutouts and all that other stuff...................bob
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They're some painful lessons, I agree. Unfortunately, seems like the lessons other people tell you about never sink in quite like personal tragedy. And I remember my broken bows better than my successful ones, why is that?
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Everyone loves tragedies :)
Dana
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It's possible to tiller a bow to bend through the handle and fades even on a narrow handled bow. I've done it often. On bend through the handle D bows, especially from boards, I leave them 3/4 thick and 1.5 wide. When tillered they appear to be stiff handled bows but they bend. So let's say I want to make a bow 1.75 inches wide bow and let the handle and fades bend. BTW 1.75 wide is pushing it as far as arrow paradox. It's tough to find an arrow that will bend around that wide a bow. I modify the handle in 1/4 inch increments. So I'll make the handle 1.5 wide and 1 inch thick or 1.25 wide and 1.25 inches thick. These handles and fades will bend just a bit to make a shorter bow safe. Jawge
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Question.....Since bows with perfectly lined up tips and handles are rare. Wouldn't it make more sense to move the tips slightly to the side or use the natural tip alignment to limit archers paradox? Then you wouldn't have to narrow the handle. Justin
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Justin, Wouldn't that add excess stress to one side of each limb and reduce the life of the bow. I know we all think about doing this with every bow but for argument sake ;D what do you think? ;) Pat
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Yea Pat, you are probably right, on both counts.
1. Purposefully leaving the limb tips out of alignment is probably contradictory to all our attempts to make a better bow.
2. Bendy handle bows probably don't need to be very wide. Therefore there is no reason to narrow the handle. Justin
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Damn, I'm good! ;D Pat
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I wonder if PA sells hats in XXXXL. ;D Justin
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I have made 2 bend in the handle bows out of osage, both of them 1 1/8 wide, both 50# give or take a couple #'s. One tracks just a little to arrow rest side the other is right down the center, parodox is much more prevailent on the one that is off center :o???? Sooo, I'm not sure I buy into offcenter thing, but then I've only built a couple....Oh and the center shot smokes arrows off and the other is pretty slow in comparison.....Brian
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The thing I have a problem with when the string lays off to the side a little is arm slap. :) :
Pappy
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Wasn't there an article in PA about building your bow with offset limbs purposely
to reduce archers paradox? I know I saw it somewhere anyhow.
Thanks for the good info all.
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Seems like every D-bow I've made that the string didn't track down the center of the handle wound up developing a lot of limb twist after awhile.
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I craft all my D-bows (thats all I make) so string tracks down center of handle. Dave Kissinger wrote article in ole' PA about offcenter string. I Dont buy into it >:(..............bob
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If you use single side nocks on opposite sides of the bow it doesn't matter if there is a slight twist. the string will track across the handle. It is a good way to eliminate a slight twist without removing wood or heating to correct. Pat
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Torges also weighed in on the off-center aspect, his opinion was similar to Pat's. I persoanlly haven't seen where a bow that tracked a little to one side, ever broke or deteriorated at a rate in excess of normal. Maybe if you shot one bow every day, all day for years.
I don't lay out a bow to purposely get a string to trak closer to one side. But it seems that as often as not, this is the way they turn out. Gary Davis recommends making same-length limbs for this reason, so that you can orient your bow for center-shot after the tillering is done. It might not be quite as professional to do it this way, but it is certainly a practical way to go about it.
Guess I'm just naturally slightly warped.
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Pat what in tarnation are single side nocks?
I better start rereading the bibles again.
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It might not be quite as professional to do it this way, but it is certainly a practical way to go about it.
Who determines what is professional. I say if it works for you, DO IT.
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paradox is much more prevalent on the one that is off center :o???? Brian
I imagine that if the bow tracks off to the side, it could be even farther off to the side at full draw. If it throws the back of the arrow toward the other side of the bow, it would make the paradox worse. Justin
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Dana, On some of the Cherokee(and probably others) hunting and war bows only 1 notch was cut on one side of the limb tip and the same on the opposite side of the other limb tip. This will automatically bring the string across the handle. ;)
I made an osage Cherokee style hunting bow this way that I gave to Hillbilly's son for his birthday while we were at the Tenn Classic. That bow had a slight prop twist so I added the side nocks so they would straighten the limb as the bow was pulled. ;D Pat
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Thanks Pat I get it now and makes perfect sense.
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That makes sense to me Justin
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Two separate issues here. I don't care if the string tracks down the center. If it doesn't I shoot it on the other side. The string slap is awful on those bows that's why I flip them around. I would not intentionally tiller a bow like that. I leave the handle full width and nocks full width and shape the handle accordingly. Nocks can be cut deeper on the offending side to track the string better. I make sure the limb removal is equal on each side of the limb. Sometimes that contributes to off center string tracking. Wood is funny. Last yew bow I made I was careful to remove wood evenly and the string still tracked way off still. The bow bends to the weak side so remove wood from the other side. Jawge
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George, I think what you're saying is to scrape the opposite side from the side the string is tracking to to bring it back in....
Side nocks are mentioned in Hardy's book, Longbow. If I remember correctly some of the Mary Rose bows had side nocks. Also remember reading where Hugh Soar has a few bows made by different bowyers that used side nocks too.
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Jimmy, I believe the side nocks on the MR bows were for tillering purposes. After the tillering was done, horn nocks where fitted. I'm sure others must have used side nocks.
After building a few bows with side nocks I appreciate their simplicity and practicality. Pat
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Thanks Pat. I remembered reading it in there in some context....
I remember reading somewhere, maybe one of the SAA newsletters, a discussion about side nocks....oh well, guess I'll have to dig around my stacks.... ;D
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Pat hows about a picture of the side nocks?
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Dana, I was looking for a pic last night but couldn't find one. My wife "organized" my archery pics when I was out of town last weekend. :o I'll have to do some searching. ;) Pat
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Wifes are so helpful ::)
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" George, I think what you're saying is to scrape the opposite side from the side the string is tracking to to bring it back in...."
Yes, jpitts, that will usually work. When I remove wood I always have to check because I favor one side of the limb. That would definitely result in a leaner as I call them. Jawge
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My wife's real helpful like that too....especially with my magazine arrivals.....doggone it....
Thanks George, I ran into that with my last bow.....guess I favor one side too. Luckily I caught it by noticing the feathering of the rings and the way the tips were moving on the tiller. Now I use my calipers more ;D
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When I'm working from the vise on my work bench I have a tendency to remove more wood from the right side. I guess it's because the bench is on the left and in the way. On the shaving horse I'm pretty consistent. Pat
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So as long as the string crosses thru the handle everythings fine?
Lets say the tip of the top limb is to the left of the handle and the tip of
the bottom limb is to the right, but the string crosses right thru the handle.
Is that ok then? Especially fer a character bow.
Dana
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Yes, that often happens with a bow that has a propellor twist much like Aerobow on my site. Jawge
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Dana thats exactly how my"ugly bow" I just posted is and it shoots great.....Brian