Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: ratty on June 05, 2007, 11:40:09 am
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heres my bit of information to add ;)
tudor war arrows were over spined.
made of ash poplar beech and hazel. and 1/2" diameter :)
length debateable ;)
piles points / warheads were of hand forged steel.
fletchings were goose or swan. 7.5" - 8.5" inch long
arrows were spiral whipped with linen and covered with (something= copper and tar i think, but i think im wrong, maybe someone can correct me on that) ;)(to stop the rats eating the fletchings during storage ?) :-\
and arrows were nocked with horn. and no deeper than 1/4" and 1/8" wide for the string, tapered to 3/8" at the nock from 1/2" from the pile.
Ratty, I hope you don't mind but I've broken your points down.
1. Over-spined? Perhaps for the vicarage lawn, not for war. Light arrows mean poor penetration.
2. Add birch and oak at least. Fletchers seemed to use a wide variety of hardwoods. Also there is good documentary evidence of coppiced shafts as well as split.
3. Well iron and steel, really.
4. Peacock too maybe? As to the length I’m a bit confused, Dr. Margaret Rule state s the average MR fletch was 6”, but as you mention I seen it written as longer. The low triangular shape seems the most commonly represented but that does not mean it was the only cut used.
5. Maybe silk as well, and were all war arrows whipped? As to the seating compound on MR arrows I’m also confused. Al has tried to simulate this compound using this mix… (ish)
1 part boiled linseed oil
3 parts Dammar resin
1 part pure turpentine
0.5 parts ground verdigris
3 parts bees wax
It works well but takes a while to dry. However, what was it for? Surely mites would still attack the feathers, that were not coated and the arrows were stored in a chest. Wouldn’t this deter the furry pests? It must have been there for a reason. Perhaps to moisture proof the animal glue to hold the fletches down?
6. Were all war arrows cross-nocked/horn or bone reinforced? If soo why are they specifically requested in orders.
Hmmm, interesting tread.
J
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This Dandy's got some interesting arrows,i can see the red binding at the start of the feather but cant see any whipping,maybe the artist couldnt be bothered (i know how he feels i hate whipping arrows :D),the Nocks allso look too large,can you splice the bone to the end of your arrow instead of inserting a piece?
Like his glove 8).
Image removed
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I realize you guys are looking at a more medevial time period, but I'd say any arrow designed with the express purpose of killing humans would be a war arrow.
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Here's my 2 cents worth
tudor war arrows were over spined.
Spine is not a medieval or renaissance concept to best of my knowledge. Spineing shafts only really comes in the 1st third of the 20th century so to say they are over spined is over complicating things a bit. Are they over spined by today's standards? Bugger me if I now. All the so called normal rules about spine can't be extended that far. By modern standards a #120@32 bow with 125g points needs a #140 shaft, more or less, how much extra do you need to add for an extra 400 grains in the point? #5 for every 25 grains would mean 55 lbs of spine? Now you are up to #195 shafts. I've seen some 1/2" ash that spines as high as #260 and some that only spines #100 but they all seem to work. One thing I'll bet on is that medieval archers did not use arrows that didn't fly right.
made of ash poplar beech and hazel. and 1/2" diameter :)
Ascham mentions several woods but he definitely preferred Ash for war arrows, here is a partial quote from Toxophilus
...as Brafell, Turkiewood, Fusticke, Sugarcheste, and such like, make dead, heavy lumpish, hobbling shafts. Again Hulder, black thorne, Serues tree, Beche, Elder, Afpe, and Sallow, either for their weakness or lightness, make hollow, starting, studding, gadding shafts. But Birche, Hardbeme, some Oak, and some Ash, being both strong enough to stand in a bow, and also light enough to fly far, are best...Yet as concerning sheaf Arrows for war (as I suppose) it were better to make them of good Ash, and not of Afpe, as they be nowadays"
notice the SOME Oak and SOME Ash, which seems to imply that not all Ash is good arrow wood and that Birch and Hardbeme (Hornbeam?) may be generally better suited One of my goals is try all of Ascham's arrow woods and come to my own conclusions. So far I've done lots of ash and some oak, and birch. Beech and hopefully hornbeam is next. Ash is good, some birch is OK. I hate oak for arrows but it's good for quarrels.
length debatable ;)
yes
piles points / warheads were of hand forged steel.
Debatable, and debated by lots and lots of people. Don't get Jaroslav started on this one ;). Some make a case for case hardening wrought iron heads. This has been an ongoing argument for a long time. Personally I think by Tudor times they are using steel, but I can't prove it. It seems to me if you are using steel for your armor and your swords then a little more for your arrow heads isn't that big a deal.
fletchings were goose or swan. 7.5" - 8.5" inch long
Ascham also mentions peacock and duck although the seems to dislike everything except goose. I prefer peacock. Length is hard to judge in period art, and I'm not aware of any surviving fletched arrows. The longest fletchings I've ever done was 10" for a swallow tail
arrows were spiral whipped with linen and covered with (something= copper and tar i think, but i think im wrong, maybe someone can correct me on that) ;)(to stop the rats eating the fletchings during storage ?) :-\
I seem to remember some references to red silk bindings on the Mary Rose arrows but I can't find the reference.
and arrows were nocked with horn. and no deeper than 1/4" and 1/8" wide for the string, tapered to 3/8" at the nock from 1/2" from the pile.
Probably generally true but Ascham never mentions horn inserts, and....
"Again likewise as no one wood can be greatly meet for all kind of Shafts,no more can one fashion of the stele be fit for every shooter For those that be little breasted and big toward the head called by their likeness taper fashion, reshe (rush?) grown, and of some merry fellows bobtails, be fit for them which shoot under hand because they shoot with a soft lowfe (loose?), and stress not a shaft much in the breast where the weight of the bow lieth as you may perceive by the wearing of every shaft."
He talks about big shafts, little shafts, short shafts and long shafts. There's also a passage about the different kind, shape and size of nocks but I can't find it right now.
All in all I think your mostly correct, an arrow made to your specifications would certainly meet my criteria for a war arrow, and also meets my definition of the BEST war arrow, but I also think it's an overly narrow definition for all sheaf, livery or war arrows, For true war arrows, which are munitions grade weapons, they are mass produced, so you know the workmanship will not be top notch. Here's one last quote and then I'm done "but let every man when he knoweth his own strength and the nature of every wood, provide and fit himself thereafter"
In the end, from a historical perspective we have the Mary Rose arrows, I think one other true medieval arrow in a cathedral somewhere in England, and Toxophilus for primary sources. The rest of it is all guess work, supposition, and practical experimentation. Which is where the fun begins.
well, that was little more the $.02. Sorry to go for so long.
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here are some pics of some of my war arrows, which in spite of everything I said in my previous post happen to meet ratty's definitions almost precisely, except I used peacock feathers and silk thread. Otherwise it's right down the line wit his specs.
these shafts were bob tailed form the head to the nock. They were turned by a friend of mine on a lathe.
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t46/lloydwwinter/Archery/prizearrows04-2007.jpg)
These are hand tapered for the last 12" to the nock. These shafts were made from some Czech ash I got from Jaroslav. This is some of the heaviest stiffest ash I've ever seen. The two on the left weigh a little over 100 grams each. All the rest are about 75-80 grams. The one on the right is poplar
(http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t46/lloydwwinter/Archery/wararrows_full_length_2.jpg)
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Ascham also mentions peacock and duck although the seems to dislike everything except goose.
I think one other true medieval arrow in a cathedral somewhere in England, and Toxophilus for primary sources. The rest of it is all guess work, supposition, and practical experimentation. Which is where the fun begins.
well, that was little more the $.02. Sorry to go for so long.
The arrow is in Westiminster Abbey. Have a look at this site.
http://huntingsociety.org/Fletchers.html
I'm not sure he mentions duck for war arrows.
Very interesting reply.
J
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Correct, Ascham mentions duck feathers as only useful for flight shooting. He also mentions eagle feathers at one point but then says there are too difficult to obtain.
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Whilst we are discusing war arrows do any of you guys have any thoughts on the weight. There is an opinon at the moment that war arrows were over 75grams. I have no doubt of this when it comes to heavy plate cutting designs but if we look to the MR which many of us site when debating all thing ELB the majority of shafts are made of Pop and are bobtailed. From experience it is hard to make the weight (75grams+) with a that design unless you have a very heavy head! Also would these archers need a heavy head? given the nature of sea warfare compared to land based fighting.
Any thoughts
Outcaste
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This Dandy's got some interesting arrows,i can see the red binding at the start of the feather but cant see any whipping,maybe the artist couldnt be bothered (i know how he feels i hate whipping arrows :D),the Nocks allso look too large,can you splice the bone to the end of your arrow instead of inserting a piece?
Like his glove 8).
(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3281/d3d273bcvq2.th.jpg) (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=d3d273bcvq2.jpg)
Someone on the old warbow forum showed a picture of what these nocks probably are. It was similar to the way a hardwood footing is placed in the front of an arrow, but in this case a wedge of horn was inserted into a V shaped slit at the string end. So the last few cm of the arrow was made purely of horn with a nock cut into it for the string.
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That makes sence Simon,does anyone make those type of Arrows? they sound tricky,i have enough trouble trying cut the insert groove straight ;D.
Also would these archers need a heavy head? given the nature of sea warfare compared to land based fighting.
I read somwhere that only a few of the Bows on the wreck were for naval warfare (the big square handled ones), Steve told me the ones locked in the chest were for land campaigns so i presume the majority of the arrows were for those Bows,i maybe wrong though ;D.
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Whilst we are discusing war arrows do any of you guys have any thoughts on the weight. There is an opinon at the moment that war arrows were over 75grams. I have no doubt of this when it comes to heavy plate cutting designs but if we look to the MR which many of us site when debating all thing ELB the majority of shafts are made of Pop and are bobtailed. From experience it is hard to
make the weight (75grams+) with a that design unless you have a very heavy head! Also would these archers need a heavy head? given the nature of sea warfare compared to land based fighting.
Any thoughts
Outcaste
I think once you accept 1/2" hardwood shafts as your basic arrow material 1000 grain arrows will be fairly common.
I have two shafts made recently with the same machined head, the same length and the same feathers. One is a poplar bobtail and the other is ash that's tapered for the last 12 inches. These two arrows weigh within 3 grams of each other (73-76 grams) and that really surprised me. I expected the poplar to be a lot lighter especially being tapered for the whole length of the shaft. I've made several arrows now that meet the spec for the John Holder Challenge arrows and had them come out from the high 60 gram range to well over 100 grams. All of them 1/2 poplar or ash and tapered for at least 12 inches to the nock. I recently had a 36" ash shaft weigh almost 1700 grains before I ever did anything to it. After weighing it the first thing I did was remove about 300 grains, then barrel taper the sucker. It now weighs 1280 grains fletched and finished without a point. I'm tempted to put a 700 grain bodkin I have on it just to scare people with a 2000 grain arrow but I'd need a whole yew tree just to get it air born.
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SimonUK said:
"Someone on the old warbow forum showed a picture of what these nocks probably are. It was similar to the way a hardwood footing is placed in the front of an arrow, but in this case a wedge of horn was inserted into a V shaped slit at the string end. So the last few cm of the arrow was made purely of horn with a nock cut into it for the string."
..and Outcaste answered:
"That makes sence Simon,does anyone make those type of Arrows? they sound tricky,i have enough trouble trying cut the insert groove straight"
I have seen some made by Chris Boyton with buffalo horn dowel, although he generally uses hardwood (sometimes two different, contrasting woods on the same insert!) rather than horn for the nock inserts. He made a very clever jig which holds the shaft flat under a bandsaw, and also angles the cut exactly by positioning the jig against the ripfence. Inverting the arrow and jig allows for perfect mirror orientation of the angled cuts. The results are just beautiful, but too much work for field shooting, which is my usual fare. I do however shoot horn slice inserted self nocks...
I have made some similar hardwood inserts and used them for repairing self-nocked arrows, whcih as worked well so far - I just dont want to chuck away an otherwise fine arrow because the nock got shot off! I have also bought some buffalo horn dowels (and other stuff) from this place:
"""PM SimonUK for the link"""
...you can generally get three nock inserts from a 100mm length horn dowel.
//Bob
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SimonUK said:
"Someone on the old warbow forum showed a picture of what these nocks probably are. It was similar to the way a hardwood footing is placed in the front of an arrow, but in this case a wedge of horn was inserted into a V shaped slit at the string end. So the last few cm of the arrow was made purely of horn with a nock cut into it for the string."
..and Outcaste answered:
"That makes sence Simon,does anyone make those type of Arrows? they sound tricky,i have enough trouble trying cut the insert groove straight"
I have seen some made by Chris Boyton with buffalo horn dowel, although he generally uses hardwood (sometimes two different, contrasting woods on the same insert!) rather than horn for the nock inserts. He made a very clever jig which holds the shaft flat under a bandsaw, and also angles the cut exactly by positioning the jig against the ripfence. Inverting the arrow and jig allows for perfect mirror orientation of the angled cuts. The results are just beautiful, but too much work for field shooting, which is my usual fare. I do however shoot horn slice inserted self nocks...
I have made some similar hardwood inserts and used them for repairing self-nocked arrows, whcih as worked well so far - I just dont want to chuck away an otherwise fine arrow because the nock got shot off! I have also bought some buffalo horn dowels (and other stuff) from this place:
http://www.highlandhorn.co.uk/shop.asp?type=12
...you can generally get three nock inserts from a 100mm length horn dowel.
//Bob
Don't think this was me.
Outcaste
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OK, my mistake, Loki said...... etc
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;D
Do you have any pics Bobnewboy,i'm quirius now ;).
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This Dandy's got some interesting arrows,i can see the red binding at the start of the feather but cant see any whipping,maybe the artist couldnt be bothered (i know how he feels i hate whipping arrows :D),the Nocks allso look too large,can you splice the bone to the end of your arrow instead of inserting a piece?
Like his glove 8).
(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/3281/d3d273bcvq2.th.jpg) (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=d3d273bcvq2.jpg)
Hi Loki
Please can you remove that image as you are in breach of copyright, sorry mate but Richard Wadge took that picture and was allowed to on the sole proviso that it would not be published.
Cheers
Steve
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Oh bugger! sorry steve i didnt know,i've removed it m8. :-[
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Hi Simon
I have been making this type of nock for quite some time, i also supply shafts with these nocks already fitted, please email me at steve@diyarchery.co.uk if these interest you.
Here's one i made earlier.
Cheers
Steve
(http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m163/stevesjem/WedgeNock.jpg)
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Nice war arrow steve. Steve are you coming to the flightshoots in sept. marlon
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Indeed a nice arrow.
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Just a thought, what is known about weatherproofing medieval military arrows shafts or not? Presumably, war arrows were basically expendable (in most cases and reuse was a bonus) and didn't need much in the way of protection. External protection was, perhaps, enough ???? Other reuseable arrows must have needed help, but you could chose not to shoot during inclement weather(unlike in a battle!).
This is Antoine (1421-1504) "le grand bâtard" with a bulbous nocked (and spliced/dyed fletches) recreational shaft. You wouldn't want moisture to lower spine and warp these labours of love.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Antoine_de_Bourgogne.jpg/444px-)
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Steve, do you have any more info about that painting, i.e. where and when it was painted? It looks sort of Italian renaisance.
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Thanks guys,
Marlon, i am planning to come this year but i need the dates as soon as possible as i have to plan this trip carefully, also i will need to know about entering and places to stay etc.
Simon, the painting was painted by Berkmeyer (I think that is how you spell it), anyway it is part of the "Trytich of St Catherine" and was painted in the 16C and now hangs in Augsberg Cathedral.
Cheers
Steve
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Thanks Steve
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Hi Loki,
I see that Steve beat me to it to post a picture of inserted horn nocks, but the attached files show what Chris Boyton has done for his roving arrows. Please excuse the quality of the pictures - i met up with him at a shoot at the weekend, and only had my phone's camera available.
//Bob
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Yeah Steve's gorgeous arrow pretty much cleared it up for me m8,i've never shot an arrow like that never mind made one but i like the look of them.
C.B's nock looks outstanding!i've seen him on the telly a few times but never handled one of his Bows,does he have a website?
Thanks for posting the pics Bob.
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No problem. CB doesn't have a website unfortunately, but even so seems maxed out most of the time with bow commissions and shaft production.
//Bob