Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Badger on April 12, 2011, 11:52:04 pm
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I find I can easily go 8 hour hard stretches with a draw knife, spokeshave, rasp or scrapers but for some reason if I try to work with an axe my forearm seems to blow up like a balloon and completely fatigue in just minutes, I have to think I am holding it wrong, been using hammers and such all my life just can't seem to adjust to the axe for some reason. Very short session are about the best I can seem to manage and then arm is shot for the day.
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are you choking up on the thing?
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Badger, I don't have a bow grade bandsaw so I have to use a hatchet for roughing out. I keep it sharp and let the tool do the work. I do ned to choke up and take short controlled strokes for the fine work. Jawge
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Just my opinion but may its because the nail absorbs some of the impact of a hammer strike and an axe or hatchet doesnt get absorbed by the wood. Maybe
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Steve I have the same problem,so I let Jesse do the axe work. ;) ;D ;D No kidding we were trimming up some small cedar for our Hide racks and it would wear my forarm out,Jesse could do it for hours.
He said it was technique but didn't show me what he meant by that , just left me to suffer. ;) ;D
Pappy
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I was having the same problem a few years ago as well. The problem was solved for 75% when I used a SHARP axe. A high quality sharp carpenters axe is completely different from a $5,- hatchet you can buy at any hardware store, but which you can never get sharp enough. A sharp axe makes the work so much better. I can now work for an hour with the axe, without having serious pains or cramps. I get blisters before my lower arm feels like a balloon ready to pop.
Another 15% was solved by using a lighter axe. An axe weighting 1½ pounds is much, MUCH more tiresome than a 1 pound axe.
The last 10% was solved by a combination of improved technique and increased muscle strength in my lower arm. The first time I used the axe, my muscles were not yet completely developed, but after a few times my muscles became used to the motion.
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Darksoul has it right although I only use a drawknife I've heard other people say the same thing Darksoul saided.
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If your forearm is blowing try keeping your wrist straight and transfer the force to the bicep shoulder and tricep.
Choke up on a heavier axe too, i could never get on with hatchets a proper weight limbing axe is much easer and let the weight do the work.
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Some good suggestions, I have a good quality sharp axe but not sure of the weight. I think choling up as suggested might help, I have tried that but felt awkward, maybe with more practice it would become more natural. Axe really is a great tool t master. One of the guys at our pasadena meet uses and axe, he works in an office and I know he doesn't have nearly the arm strength I have but he can go for hours just like Pappy said Jesse does. Maybe I will study up on tecnique and check the weight of my axe.
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Good Post.
I have the same problem when I try to use a Hatchet.
It not nearly so bad if find something to hold the wood and then use both hands on the hatchet.
I have a $3.00 (made in China) hatchet that I bought new, 20 years ago, from one of those, way out in the boonies, road side junk stores. I thought it was a good deal at the time. ::)
David
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I love axes and hatchets, but if I'm trying to remove all the wood from a quarter split of dry (or even green for that matter) hickory with just a hatchet I can't do it. I get tired- and bored- and give up for later. So whenever I can, I cut down outside marks with a hand saw and split off large amounts of excess. Smaller amounts are no issue, and the whole job becomes about the finer removal down to the lines. Sure is easier than otherwise.
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I use a hatchet for almost all my rough in and wood removal. I choke up near the handle and let the sharp blade and weight of the head handle the work, also using short strokes, like Jawge. I also use it to rough in the shape of the bow. It will follow the grain down the sides if it is sharp and you don't force it. I also use it for removeing the sapwood on Osage.
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I used to have a heavy axe which I put a slightly longer handle on so I could use it hand-and-a-half. But I got bad tennis elbow.
I bought a lighter good quality axe which helps, but I still find some woods are much harder on the elbow than others. Ash is a right pig, Yew and Hazel are much kinder, the bandsaw is best, but I still have trouble picking it up and swinging it ::)
Del
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Badger, just to clarify...I use a hatchet. Not an axe. My hatchet is a cheap camp one I bought in the 70's to use when camping. It has a metal handle...it is one piece. I keep a stone handy for frequent touch ups on the sharpening. When I get tired rest. I usually just use it for roughing out and then go quickly to the drawknife. It makes quick work of the roughing out process. If I get tired I rest. No hurry. When I'm done with it, it gets sharpened, oiled and cased to protect the edge. Ready for the next time. It has served me well for many bows. Jawge
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I thought I was the only one getting old!
Why dont ya just come to my house cause I can't run a draw knife anymore but I can chop All the other junk out of the way just fine?!!
Maybe between the two of us we can getter done !!!
I supose its in the way we learned!
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have you considered using a froe to take long slabs of extra material off before even switching to the sharp hatchet? I agree with Darksoul, the hatchet should be sharp and comfortable in weight. You can remove alot of wood quickly with one.
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Both a suggestion, and an antecdote.
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/swedishcarvingaxe.aspx
I think I traded for mine, many years ago, but this little ax is THE tool for such work in my opinion. At least I haven't found an ax or hatchet to come close yet. Hard to justify the price, from my pov, but like I said, for what I got in it, it can't be beat.
Wife texted me while I was turkey hunting early this last Saturday morning. Said what a beautiful day it was, that she was working in the yard and she'd already pulled one of the old dead shrubs out of the front bed. We started working in the bed last fall, pulling out old box hedges, junipers and such that were too old, overgrown and some dying. By the time I got home at dinner there was a pile in the yard, maybe 5 or 6 shrubs she'd pulled. When I climbed out of the truck she said "The axe was too heavy for me so I borrowed your hatchet. That sucker works great!" Since I don't own a hatchet, least not a sharp one with a handle in it, and what she thinks of as an ax is one of those cheesy home center, True Temper pos I use for splitting wood, my response was "the one with the leather scabbard, under my work bench..." Needless to say cutting out roots in the flower bed didn't do much for it's sharpness. Fortunately the chips are not so deep I can't hone them back out. But it will take more than a standard sharpening. It would shave hair bettern a broadhead prior to this mis-adventure.
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David, I have the same identical axe. They take a great edge and I tend to use it in the yard quite a bit. I bought it with the intention of making bows while camping but my forearm seems to give out before I have a big stave worked down. Hard to beat when digging out tree roots but it is a bit hard on the edge.
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I just went out and did some chopping just to examine my tecnique. I find I grip the axe a bit harder than I normally grip tools bcause of the shape of the handle. I am going to wrap it in leather to see if that helps.
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I experience the same thing, it's why I switched to a machete. Even so, I've been meaning to invent a sling or a cuff that will basically attach the tool to my hand so I only need to control it, and not need to prevent myself from throwing it accidentally. I picture something that ties to the front of the gripping area, with a velcro cuff like a (gasp!) compound release.
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I think too tight a grip is what causes a lot of shock. I used to play badminton and a loose grip with a throwing/pivoting action generates speed.
At one time I did try a loose strap from the front of the handle around my wrist so that I could really let the raquet whip over like a trebuchet sling.
Obviously a grip is needed to accurately direct the power of the axe, but I think it's matching the weight to what you find comfortable and 'letting the axe do the work'.
My Bro' nearly drove me mad one day, we were on either end of a big two handed saw ripping down a Walnut stump for making gunstocks. He kept on accusing me of pushing and saying 'let the saw do the work'. Jjeez I nearly smacked him one, but he's a good bloke who's helped me saw stuff many a time, so I gritted my teeth and kept going.
So that's Del's tip of the week, if really want to rile someone, just keep tellin' 'em "let the (insert appropriate tool in here) do the work" >:D
Del
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i use a hatchet more and more these days, and my bowmaking is getting alot faster. Doesn't seem to hurt the hand, wrist, elbow, anything. My hatchet is a cheapo version from the local mom and pop hardware store. I sharpen it with file and stone. It cuts through black locust like butter.
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Use a sharp axe. I like old carpenters broad axes. And find an axe that is well balanced. I find I like a little weight, but if the balance is wrong I pay for it.
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the bandsaw is best, but I still have trouble picking it up and swinging it ::)
Del
I recently switched from axe to chainsaw for dropping trees. I find the shock to my hands, wrists, and arms from the axe was bad but the chainsaw is worse. And worse yet I can't really get a good swing with the chainsaw! Going back to the axe. ;)
I have been using a falling axe with the handle cut down to about 12 inches for shaping out rough dimensions on bows. It's hard on the forearms mostly because it's a bit heavier than necessary and out of balance. I've beeen reading up on carving axes like the ones made by Grunsfors, but they are about $140 a pop. I'm keeping an eye out on yard sales and rummage sales....I'll find something for a buck and talk 'em down to 4 bits.
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My hatchet is one of thos expensive Gransfors Bruks, shock is no issue at all just muscle fatigue. I changed my grip a bit and it is helping. I also think I was doing nearly all the work with my wrist and forearm muscles and am going to try and practice using a bit more arm. The handle diameter being so small makes it hard to grip firmly.
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Steve, try letting the weight of the head do most of the work.
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DCM, my friend has that hatchet, and loves it. It is a quality tool, but it wears me out. I'm so used to my Estwing that anything else just feels awkward to me.
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I beefed up the handle with leather, improved the grip a lot and gave me a better fit. I think it will help a lot next time I take down the whole stave I will report back. Steve
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I use my carving ax rarely, and usually to reduce a rough stave enough to get it to ride the bandsaw table without too much trouble. There is a knack to it, where you back-cut and then let the weight of the blade chip off pieces with a splitting action. Seems like mine wants to strke with the blade at about 45 degrees to the work, partly away from me and down in a slashing motion, rather than straight up 90.
I think it's the bevel angles that make or break an ax, and usually the fault with the mass market ones, too steep. The carving ax is offset, eg. "right handed."
I'm too tight pay $150 for a dog-gone hunk of steel. I think I traded a bow for it, which I usually would just give away. But I've enjoyed using it.
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I recently got a Gransfors Hunter's axe and I gotta say - it's possibly the best hatchet/axe I've ever held or used. I've never used an axe to roughwork a stave but I'd be tempted to some time.
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I've looked at that same axe, Hatch, and just from reading the description I felt it would be about the best possible choice. Now I just gotta find a way to fund it. Hate it when I like an expensive tool better than run of the mill cheapies!
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The leather on the handle made a huge difference in how fast my arm gets tires. I kind of hated putting leather on such an expensive tool but it made a world of difference.
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I've looked at that same axe, Hatch, and just from reading the description I felt it would be about the best possible choice. Now I just gotta find a way to fund it. Hate it when I like an expensive tool better than run of the mill cheapies!
If you've looked into Gransfors axes, you've doubtless seen their range of carpentry specific products - tasty stuff indeed!!
Like you though, I figured the Hunter's axe would be the best "all rounder" for pretty much anything a small axe can be used for.
Very much well worth the initial outlay!!
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When you come out to hunt deer in the Black Hills, bring that hand axe with you (just not as carry-on luggage) and I'll give it a test run on some dry osage. Thanks, HatchA.
-john
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Will do John. ;)
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I haven't been around much, but I wanted to add a couple of cents.....
...I'm missing some fingers on my right hand, so gripping things sometimes becomes fatiguing very quickly.
Might I suggest a review of your technique? I'm pretty sure that you already have it down to a science, as this is clearly "not your first rodeo", but I think that lots of people try to take too big of a "bite" when using carving axes/hatchets.
To remove a lot of material, do you cut a series of notches, working up towards yourself, then take one longer swipe at it to remove the bulk of what you just loosened? When you drop the blade into the material, do you twist the blade after it has cut a notch, to help loosen the material?
Might be worth describing how all of you use the hatchets? I know I saw a good reference on-line somewhere, but I can't find it. It was related to Swedish Carving techniques...using an axe.
Cheers,
J
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Get a fiskars or Gerber hatchet. The handles are hollow so they're very hollow. I can swing my fiskars axe all days plus it's easy to sharpen, takes a razor edge, and it's only $20
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what weight axe is it? maybe you should get a lighter one...... I've noticed if I get joint or muscle/tendon problems,its because I'm not staying relaxed and using way more tension than necessary. Most people grip their tools much tighter than they need to. Use minimum tension and let the weight of the axe do the work. With the stave in the right place relative to the axe strokes that you dont need to lift it too high for each stroke , ie., at the right height etc etc. You probably know these things already but just trying to be helpful...
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My axe is a 3 1/2 lb felling axe with 12" of hickory handle. I choke up on the grip so that there is about 2 fingers of space between my grip and the head. And yeah, I fatigue quickly because I do not have lumberjack forearms.
I don't do a lot with the hand axe, but it can move material quickly enough.
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Funny thing is that I have always had very big forearms and have worked with hand tools my entire life. I have the Gransfors hand axe which is one of the best and it is razor sharp. My leather handle did help considerably but I have been practicing lately and found I was taking too much bite. Just a bad habit I guesss. I do plan to stay with this axe till I can do at least a 2hour session with one. I can't imagine even the biggest stave taking over two hours to reduce if I can master this thing without the fatique. I got half way through a big locust stave 4" wide in about 1 1/2 hours last weekend with several 5 min brakes taking smaller bites so I am encouraged.
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Watch the first 40 seconds of this video to see how to use a hand axe on wood.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVwTSzNLxcM
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I watched that video, pretty much the same tecnique I use now except I don't choke up quite so much on the head. A big hardwood stave just needs more power, just a much bigger job. I have found my muscle stamina increasing everyday. I got through an hour today with no breaks and just medium fatigue in the forearm, I imagine in a couple of months the muscle will proably be pretty well adapted to it. Starting to think I just haven't been using the same muscles that an axe requires.
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In the video, the guy's wrist hardly moves at all. A lot of the work is being done by the shoulder muscles. He also chops up on the wood and then trims downward. In the US, we tend to chop into the wood about mid-stave and then try to split and pry the wood off with the axe. It's the opposite of the way they do it in Europe. We like to do it the hard way, I guess.
If you are chopping on large staves, my question is: Why? You should be splitting the big stuff with wedges and then working on thin material: a little bigger than the wood in the video.
I used a hand axe for years and I'm no muscle man. My main problem was shock from the handle: it was making my whole arm sore. When I got an axe with a shock-absorbing handle, it made a world of difference.
I've used several axes that cost a lot but were pretty much crap as far as wood carving goes. I enjoy working a stave with hand tools but I had to get the right ones. To this day, I've never had a need for a spokeshave or scraper. I don't own a shaving horse either. I do all my roughing out with an axe or bandsaw. I tiller with a pocket knife and sandpaper when I don't have access to a sander. ;D
PS RyanO can vouch for the way I make a bow...haha ;)
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Main reason I want to get better with an axe is so I can remove wood a bit faster when I don't have access to electricity. I do pretty well with my draw knife and spokeshave but I think the axe will be faster if I can master it. Most the guys I know that use the axe including myself chop up and trim down just as in the video. I make my chops more like straight in and then chop down. On small jobs like the one we saw on the video you wouldn't want to much wrist action I wouldn't think. I am working on two staves right now a locust and a mulberry. Neither stave is that good so I plan to get all the way to floor tiller with the axe just for the practice, not much to loose anyway.
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Most axes/hatchets have the edge set at the middle and are not made for shaping straight things like bows. If the blade of the axe head is thick they will normally take off too much for my taste. The large axes for making boards are a good indication of what we need. Those are flat on the side that touches the board, which makes it possible to take off very thin chips by swinging the axe nearly parallell to the board. We say that they are ground like a scissor. A broad edge is also useful, as you can focus all the attention on the chopping angle.
Here's one of my axes. It's a replica of a 13th. century axe from Bergen, Norway. The side shown on the picture is nearly flat all the way to the edge. The nearly round grip is quite typical of the medieval axes, and is very comfortable to grip, but is perhaps not the best for precision work. It's also slightly too heavy for the finer work. The round edge (as seen from the side) makes it bite better and more softly, but makes a concave surface. I like a straighter edge for final axe-work. Don't have a picture of my favorite axe at hand though...
(http://kviljo.no/bue/oks.jpg)
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Like Youngbowyer i use a fiskars,the next smallest model with a few modifications,first of all sand off that silly orange paint on the griparea.It gets slippery when you get warm witch makes you grip it harder.
and secondly i stuffed the hollow handle with paper and epoxied lead in the last 2-3" of the handle until it felt balanced,it doesnt take much lead to make a lot of difference when you have to restrain your chopping.
Im new to bowmaking but i used it a lot to rough out gunstocks and i dont think there is that much difference.
/Mikael
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The hatchet I use for everything is an old "hewing" hatchet. The secret to this hatchet (something I haven't heard anyone on this thread mention) is that
it only has a bevel on one side. Just like your drawknife or a chisel. The old hewing axes were bevel ground just like this and were used for squaring up logs
into timbers for timber framing. It's very effortless to give a nice flat or square surface similar to what a plane would do (plane blades being ground on one side only also).
It can almost achieve a finished surface. This is something that can't be done with a double bevel hatchet. With a double bevel you have to come at it with a much steeper
angle to engage the cutting edge than with a single bevel. Double bevels are great for chopping a tree or branch down and using as a splitting wedge but I seriously don't
know how you guys use them for shaping and carving. I bought this one at an antique store for $12. And you can't beat that old steel, I've maybe sharpened this on twice
in the 5 years I've owned it! It's heavy so if you let the weight do the work by gripping at the end of the handle you can remove a lot of wood fast but if you grip near the head
you can get very controlled and smooth wood removal. And if you grip the head and push, you can remove thin shavings like a plane.
Also, the bodger in the posted video is using a hewing hatchet very similar to this.
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I've had my eye out for a good old carpenter's axe for some time, but the ones I find are always "antiques" and priced accordingly. I use the small Fiskars hatchet with good results, full for roughing and choked up for fine work. It has a nice flat bevel grind that's easy to maintain, and I keep it shaving sharp. You gotta grip it loose, just like a hammer, or your arm will be on fire in no time. I'm considering one of the axes on this site: http://www.ragweedforge.com/ThrowingCatalog.html I have owned the throwing axe on the top; it was cast steel and great for throwing. I'm not sure of the tool quality for the shipbuilder's axe, but for $47, it may be worth a try.