Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: dwardo on May 10, 2011, 01:34:54 pm
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Hi all,
I am on a quest to try all of my local woods for bows.
I started with Sycamore (pseudo platanus) and found that it is VERY weak in tension. Blew two bows before they hit 15 inches. It did seem ver good in compression so will bear that in mind. I also have elder (sambu nigra) and cherry (prunus avium) drying out clamped to a form to try and pull out some twist.
This one is hazel which i had forgotten all about. I have tillered it out to 20 inches. One limb has a bit of deflex due to a hump n bump It is 64 inches long and a faintly bendy handle. I saw that Gorden made a lovely bow from this stuff so i have been following his hints and tips. I think ill try a heat treat as suggested?
Anyone see anything scary?
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/IMAG0984.jpg)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/IMAG0982.jpg)
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The right limb right off the handle looks like it is bending a bit too much, or doing a bit to much work, right after that mid limb seems to be doing not enough bending, is a bit too flat. I would make the flat mid limb area on the right limb bend a bit more to even out the bending right off the handle or you could suffer an unexpected hinge when bracing. And as always, get it to a short brace as soon as it looks good to you and use the shortest longstring possible until then, :). (at the same time it doesn't look that bad to me, and you must always consider the unbraced profile compared to the bending one... It actually looks pretty good now that I look at it again, darnit, I just can't make up my mind! ;D Eh, looks good to me.)
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I think you are right about the right limb, it does need to bend between more just out of the first third, left limb too? maybe. It is braced at about 4 inches in the drawn pic.
The two knots just outside of the right fade is throwing me, time to put it down for a day i think and await a few opinions.
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The right limb right off the handle looks like it is bending a bit too much, or doing a bit to much work, right after that mid limb seems to be doing not enough bending, is a bit too flat. I would make the flat mid limb area on the right limb bend a bit more to even out the bending right off the handle or you could suffer an unexpected hinge when bracing. And as always, get it to a short brace as soon as it looks good to you and use the shortest longstring possible until then, :). (at the same time it doesn't look that bad to me, and you must always consider the unbraced profile compared to the bending one... It actually looks pretty good now that I look at it again, darnit, I just can't make up my mind! ;D Eh, looks good to me.)
I agree with all of this, well said! ;D
Look forward to seeing this finished
I do agree after looking at the unbraced pic and then the braced dwardo you mentioned that knot and before its braced it looks to have a little hump there wich makes it look like the tiller is off but I think it is actually good on the tiller in my opinion. might be a little stiff mid limb or so on the right limb
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Looking forward to seeing how this turns out.
Your scales... is it a suitcase scales for checking bag-weight before taking a flight? Looks VERY similar to what I've been using :)
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is that a hing in the right limb or deflex?
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To me after looking at the unbraced picture I think its a spot of deflex and not a hinge imo
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"To me after looking at the unbraced picture I think its a spot of deflex and not a hinge imo"
Ya, I'd say so too, looks good to me.
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Looks very good. Jawge
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Toast the belly and flip up the tips a bit more - Hazelnut responds well to heat treating.
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How wide is it? I'd go pretty wide and expect some set if it's not heat treated.
My fave Hazel bow isn't heat treated, has lost a few pounds and taken a lot of set, (no crysals) but still spits 'em out fast .(built in early 2009 and had a lot of use)
Del
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Thanks for the advice all. I hope these step by step tiller shots will help others out too. I hope to post all of the "local woods" bows as i go over the next few weeks/months.
I tillered it out to about 21 last night. Set isnt too bad at the "moment", less than an inch so far and i have been making a point of exercising it a lot.
I will post a few more pictures of the tiller later and then get the heat gun out. Its pretty wide 2" at the fades then 1,3/4 about mid limb with a taper to the nocks.
Feels very light in weight this bow.
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I tillered it out to about 21 last night.
You mean 9pm ? O:) ::)
Del
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Looks good to me. And I dont think its hinging on the right limb....unbrace indicates a deflex not hinge imo.
I have real bad experience with hazle, no matter how I tiller them they develop chrysals on hunting weight bows....I have started a new one and is going for at least 70" to avoid chrysals. So...based on my own experince I might induce more bend in the outer limbs to distribute compression on your bow.
Hazle makes really fast bows tho:-)
Cheers
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Just finishing a 40# hazel semi pyramid... I'll post when it's done.
Del
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I have had no luck at all with Hazel. So all I can say is it looks good to me, mine all got compression fractures :-[
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Right o chaps,
Tillered out to 26 where its pulling about 45lb, bottom limb has since been scraped a little as it was a little too stiff. Hoping to pull it out to 28.5/29 for my draw so hopefully maybe 50lbs? Hazel seems capable of more i think.
I think i am the only person who can pick a humpy bumpy bit of hazel! The limb with the bump has a little deflex and so far its only taken less than an inch of set. I also heat treated and flipped the tips as Gordon the hazel guru suggested. Just have to sand her a bit before shooting her in for a while and maybe pull the string over a little. I like hazel so far but its not finshed yet so ill keep shtum. If it makes it through that lot i have some antler overlays to sort out the temp nocks.
my camer work is a poor so evened up the shot
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/IMAG1054-1.jpg)
bumps n humps
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/IMAG1056-1.jpg)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/IMAG1055.jpg)
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Just as a foot note, Hazel is shockingly fast! :)
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Drat, my Hazel I'm working on has chrysalled :( I went a bit too narrow and a bit overdid the heat treatment I think. I'll press on and see how it shoots.
Del
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Drat, my Hazel I'm working on has chrysalled :( I went a bit too narrow and a bit overdid the heat treatment I think. I'll press on and see how it shoots.
Del
Sorry Dell, that sucks mate. Is it an all over chrysal or just an oops local to one area chrysal?
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Nice bow! Tiller looks perfect.
Hazel and Wych Elm is my favorite woods. For some reason I never had much trouble with Hazel, like I have had with other woods. It seems almost an indestructible wood to me!
Go Hazel!
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Drat, my Hazel I'm working on has chrysalled :( I went a bit too narrow and a bit overdid the heat treatment I think. I'll press on and see how it shoots.
Del
Sorry Dell, that sucks mate. Is it an all over chrysal or just an oops local to one area chrysal?
There's at least two of 'em on the lower limb about 4" apart, that shows I'm spreading the load fairly evenly I s'pose ::)
I'll get a string on it tomorrow and give it a good workout, see what happens. I may need a crotch protector as it's on the lower limb :o.
Del
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Just a duff bit of wood then :( How long was it seasoned out of curiosity? The bit i had was only a few months roughed out indoors.
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looking mighty fine Dwardo, good work. I have a stave of hazlenut I am hoping to start on this summer.
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I just finished a really nice hazel bow, shot in no bother started to think about a handle and blow me if it didn't start to get compresion fractures. One is so bad I had to give up on this bow. This is my 5th hazel drop out. Mine shot real nice for a couple of hundred arrows, go figure ???
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Nearly there! Teaser pics :)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/IMAG1068.jpg)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/IMAG1074.jpg)
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LOve that dye job. looks real nice
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That looks great, not too short, not too narrow, just right <click 'Goldilocks Mode' OFF>
The one I made is shooting ok despite the chrysal and hasn't taken any set, bottom limb has gone a tad weak but it's obviously nearly right ::). (close but no cigar)
Maybe Hazel needs a bit of safely factor built in, but then we all like to push the timber, I feel I gotta make another just to prove my decent ones weren't a fluke :D.
C'mon where's the full draw shot eh? eh?
Del
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Nice stain job! I sure hope she turns out ok, looks like a good few hours went into this one!
Nathan
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The hazels I've built I over built. Any exture stress you will get chrysalizz. So I made mine all in the mid 60's. It surprizenly light in the hand and mine were really snappy and fast. If it wern't for OSAGE AND HICKORY it would'nt be in the #3.
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Right then here she is finished, well bar a little bit of something to stop the arrow wearing the pass, dunno what yet :)
After a good shooting in and a lot of sanding out dings she pulls about 45-48 lbs at 28, 64 ntn. Lots of tension at brace height and is a joy to shoot. The bow is very light so seems very fast. The over lays are red deer antler which is incredibly dense in comparison to other horn and bone i have worked, which ultimately leeds to more sanding and that orrible smell! The stain is black leather dye with a rosewood stain over the top, finished with lots of coats of thinned poly varnish.
Gonna take a while to catch up on the chores i have been putting off mainly the veg garden but after that and some cleaning up its the cherry next or maybe the elder.
First off the money shot for Dell. Bottom looks a bit strange but it has a dip before the recurve, all seems to even its self out. Recurves seem to be working hard too :)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/fulldraw2.jpg)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/fulldraw.jpg)
Bumps n humps made it "fun" >:(
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/bumps1.jpg)
Back with wood showing through the cambium lazy mistake but looks nice lol
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/fenceback.jpg)
Belly
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/fencebelly.jpg)
Brace
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/brace1.jpg)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/brace2.jpg)
Nocks about 3/8
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/noc1.jpg)
Thanks for looking all.
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Well done!
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must try to find some hazel in my neck of the woods :) looks amazing
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Very nice bow. Spot on tiller. I really like this idea of useing local wood, cant wait to see what you do next! Elder sounds interesting; ELB style or flatbow? Still cant belive the bad luck I have had with hazel, seeing your bow proves it can make a great bow.
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Thanks for the kind words all.
Not sure on the elder bow it has some nast prop twist that i am going to try and heat/steam out first.
The cherry is stupidly very light at floor tiller, my own fault for rushing so no idea on that one. I have access to more though.
PS has anyone tried leaving the bark on cherry?
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Yeah, that's sweet, I'm a bit ambivalent about the whole staining thing, but knowing me I'll try it soon and then I'll be a convert ::).
Looks like you got the width/thickness balance spot on... that's the sort of thing I was after on my last one until I screwed up >:( (mind it might have found a home as a kids bow with a bit of re-tillering ;D)
Del
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Cheers Dell,
I know what you mean about the whole stain thing but i have enough white wood looking bows so this is a nice change.
I am sure you will make a kid very happy with a new bow and start off another timber worryer :)
Lets see it anyways, even if its a dog of a stick you have more than enough kudos with that stunning yew ELB, still keep flicking through the shots of that thing.
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Cheers Dell,
I know what you mean about the whole stain thing but i have enough white wood looking bows so this is a nice change.
I am sure you will make a kid very happy with a new bow and start off another timber worryer :)
Lets see it anyways, even if its a dog of a stick you have more than enough kudos with that stunning yew ELB, still keep flicking through the shots of that thing.
ta, It's nearly finished and it's much better, I'll post a before and after soon, there are still a couple of little chrysals but they aren't under any strain now and the darn thing still has a hint of flip tip recurviness about it ;D.
Actually, just have a shufti here http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.com/ (http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.com/), it saves me posting the pics to Photobucket., and if you go back a few posts you'll se why it needed re-worling :-[.
Del
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So ive heard this everywhere, what are chrysals? ???
Definition please! ;D
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Hazelnut is good bow wood if you utilize an appropriate design. Your bow looks like it came out perfectly.
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Hazelnut is good bow wood if you utilize an appropriate design. Your bow looks like it came out perfectly.
Thanks Gordon, not a patch on your Hazel bow but give me another 10 years or so... ;)
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So ive heard this everywhere, what are chrysals? ???
Definition please! ;D
Tiny little fractures that tend to run across the limb. Basicaly the cells in the wood have crumpled causing the little tiny cracks to appear. have a quick search on this site for the word and you will see what we mean :) Orrible little things.
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So ive heard this everywhere, what are chrysals? ???
Definition please! ;D
Look on my website (click on the globe symbol under my username) on the 'Hazel Primitive Bows' page , there is a nice pic of 'em with some explanation too, and video of my son shooting a Hazel bow, in fact it's soooo cool I've had to go and have a look myself! ::).
Del
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So ive heard this everywhere, what are chrysals? ???
Definition please! ;D
Look on my website (click on the globe symbol under my username) on the 'Hazel Primitive Bows' page , there is a nice pic of 'em with some explanation too, and video of my son shooting a Hazel bow, in fact it's soooo cool I've had to go and have a look myself! ::).
Del
I just saw your website! Its awesome! Lots of information and pictures, Thanks Del! ;D
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Hi All,
This one was almost lost when I damage the side of the bow whilst using steam to straighten out a limb, the padding I was using had a wooden chip hidden in it which dug into the side of the bow, I was gutted. The bow was originaly destined for about 55lbs but after removing the damaged area it came in around 45lbs. I am not too distraught as its a pleasure to shoot. No idea what the tip overlays are it was just something from my oops pile, any takers? Black silk backed flipped tips and a light heat treat. Top mid-limb has a little deflex that refused to go away so i just worked around it. Not overall happy with the tiller but i was running out of wood fast. I have no doubt that this would be a good bow wood providing you dont ruin it as i did. So thats another for the list in the UK and soon ill make a much nicer one. Just need to decide whats next, the wych elm thats near 30rpi or the bit of yew, all local again.
Thanks for looking,
First off the boy making sure my work is Ok before finishing up,
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/boy.jpg)
Unbraced
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/unbrace.jpg)
Temp handle
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/handle.jpg)
Tips
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/tip.jpg)
Standing
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/standing-1.jpg)
Full draw GET THAT ELBOW DOWN!
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/fd.jpg)
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Nice one!
I think the tips are padouk,that red ember glow seems familiar,i made some knifehandles from it.
If it smells aromatic and a touch of vanilla when sanded its what it is.
/Mikael
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It did smell quite nice but was a very fine dust that got everywhere :o so i guess your right. Thanks.
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That Cherry does look nice, you call it 'black cherry' dunno what the cherry is on Harlow's cycle tracks, prob some fancy Japanese stuff grown for it's blossom rather than it's bow making properties.
BTW, It's interesting you put the slight deflex limb at the top, if I have one with slight deflex I put it at the bottom, then everyone (including Robert Hardy!) tells me the lower limb is weak >:(. I'm still a bit iffy on the strong lower limb thing, as long as it looks even at full draw I'm happy.
Del
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That Cherry does look nice, you call it 'black cherry' dunno what the cherry is on Harlow's cycle tracks, prob some fancy Japanese stuff grown for it's blossom rather than it's bow making properties.
BTW, It's interesting you put the slight deflex limb at the top, if I have one with slight deflex I put it at the bottom, then everyone (including Robert Hardy!) tells me the lower limb is weak >:(. I'm still a bit iffy on the strong lower limb thing, as long as it looks even at full draw I'm happy.
Del
Missed this post dell,,
Its just the usual prunus avium stuff you see everywhere, tricky bit is finding a bit long enough without a load of radial branches. I have another that should make atleast 2 bows but that was one of only 2 suitable saplings from 100`s. Just part way through a bow from my favourite wych elm so will post that when i am back from the woods. Like i say if you ever find your self up this way be sure to let me know and we can trade ;) I am off to a friends wood for a few days where there is a load of ash, elm, hazel and massive cherry so will drag a few back if i have the energy.
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Hi Dwardo,
I have my eye on a beautiful piece of cherry (Prunus avium) on a site not a million miles away from you... I will let you know if/when I acquire it! It should be good for a couple of staves at least! Having said that, I've got my eye on some bird cherry (P. padus) too! I cut some English elm (Ulmus procera) today. one of the staves may have your name on it! By the way... sorry for the botanical names, but I'm a Countryside Ranger, so it's in my blood!
I've been lurking on here for a while... time to take some pics of my first yew ELB (made with much help and advice from Dwardo).
Happy days!
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Hi,
Must keep my eye open for some hazel!... I may have some somewhere!
By the way, you'll just have to come and check out the woods near me... ash, elm and yew EVERYWHERE!!!!
I hope to get out to Dave's wood sometime soon....
I'll give you a bell!
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Nice bow, nice dye job!
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Beautiful finish, good job!
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Hi,
Must keep my eye open for some hazel!... I may have some somewhere!
By the way, you'll just have to come and check out the woods near me... ash, elm and yew EVERYWHERE!!!!
I hope to get out to Dave's wood sometime soon....
I'll give you a bell!
Get the pictures up! Lovely bow especially for your first, yew learn quick lol. Here is a taster ;)
(http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o218/dwardo/P1010016.jpg)
So liitle time to do anything lately, must pull my finger out.