Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Justin Snyder on June 11, 2007, 01:36:55 am
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I know this is going to be a touch subject. If it offends you, I apologize now.
When I first started making bows a couple of years ago, I didn't know about this site. When I found the old site I was able to post pictures and get help, much like a lot of others do. I posted a couple of bows with what I thought was good tiller. The great guys on this site were helpfull enough to point out areas where I could improve the tiller. This brought my bows to a whole new level.
Now the touchy part. Myself and many of the other guys vote for bows in the Bow Of the Month contest based on the quality of the tiller. Eye candy such as snakes and paint are great, but it is BOW of the month, so we grade the bow first. This leads me to my request. I for one would like to see the cool MONEY SHOT of you drawing your bow while hanging from your tree stand or however you like. But I would really like to see a picture of the bow at full draw on the tillering tree, or at least drawn and held straight (not canted) for one picture so I can see the tiller. If you don't want to post a picture like this, that is fine, it is just my own idea. But I think all of our bows could be improved by a set of fresh eyes. And it would be a lot easier for the fresh eyes to see the tiller if they see it the way you need to while you are tillering. This would also make it a lot easier to know what we are voting for in BOM. Thanks, Justin
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Justin, I agree with you, a good tiller shot has prevented me from voting for certain bows in the past just because I really couldnt see the tiller that well, I also like to see a front view along with the other views as well. Steve
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hi justin! - even for myself i now find pictures on the tillertree very informative; it's another aspect to look at the tiller and sometimes i can see things that i didn't see before.
i had that problem you are talking about with the last bow i posted: i had asked volunteers to take pictures of me drawing the bow, twice. but i angled the bow on all the pictures just a little bit, so that the tiller looks strange.
frank
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I agree that a full draw shot should be taken with a strait bow, not canted,...that's what I always do even if it isn't my style of shooting.
However I don't think a tillering tree can compare with the human drawing, gripping hand, drawing fingers, can't be reproduced by a tree and a scale where the only place I can put the scale hook on the string is nowere near where the nocking poing will finally go, as a matter of fact I belive that a good looking tiller on a tree might even turn out not so good once handled by a human being.
If you really like to look at the bow pointing upwards you can always turn the picture ;D :D
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Justin while my bows are not good enuf for contention in the BOM(yet), I will try to remember a tiller tree full draw pic in
the future, but I agree with Manny that the FD profile can be different when hand drawn. As for BOM voting your right
that the tiller has to be good, a bow can be a thing of beauty with all the accessories but if poorly designed or tillered all ya have is eye candy.
But I also think you have to take into account the bowyers experience vs. the finished product. A difficult stave for me could very well be a routine
job for someone else. So who worked harder?
Now I will one up ya and tick alot of folks off I firmly believe you should only be allowed to win BOM
once per year per category. This will allow more people to experience the honor and there would be 12 bowyers per category vieing for Bow of the Year honors.
And before anyone suggests that I'm jealous, let me say that you are wrong I just feel that it is the fair way of doing it.
And I won't apologize in advance for my opinion.
Dana
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I greatly prefer to see a human being drawing a bow, partly for the reasons already given.
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I prefer a human drawing as well, but a good view for judging. Dana, I have thought the same thing many times, I try and take a bowyers experience into consideration when looking them over, if I see a releatively new bowyer so a real nice job it will often get my nod. Whre is if a man is putting out consistently good work every month I tend to expect more out of him when I vote. Steve
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I have posted before that if the full draw image is not square on that I will pass on voting. Also I like to see an unbraced picture of the bow because that tells me something about the bow as well. I picture of a bow on the tree make me cringe though.I used to do that many years ago but use the timer on my camera now and draw by hand. Much better for the bow. Like you, eye candy does not move me unless the bow is also very well made and tillered
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Yep, square but not on a tillering rack. Drawing the bow with your hands tells you much more. ;D
Did I mention I hate tillering rack full draws? ::)
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I try to hold my bows vertical when having pics made to show here on PA. Also, I try to have a somewhat neutral background so the bow, and all its glory ::), make a good appearance. The tiller tree doesn't work for me because I can't hold at full draw and take the pic by myself...and my wife hates to come to my dusty basement shop. ;D I have noticed that the bow at full draw on the tiller tree can be differant from the when I pull to full draw. The bow's position on the tree as well as where you attach to the string will make a big difference. Pat
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Dana, could your 'win-once-per-year-per-category' thing come as a result of, ahemGordon? ;D
I agree, I try to take a good square picture of me pulling the bow, and I really don't like it when someone doesn't. They've missed the beauty of it!
Sean
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Sean, no its no one in particular, I have nothing but respect for everyone on here. To me its a fairness thing.
Personally if I ever win BOM(ya right ;D) I would request that Don not enter any more of my bows in the contest.
As a matter of fact Don messaged me for a full draw pic of my daughter with the bow I made her, he wanted it for the kids bow contest.
I responded that my daughter is no longer a kid, she's 18 and that the bow has developed a fatal hinge so I requested that it not be considered.
To me its only fair.
Dana
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I like the response you all have given. My suggestion of the tillering tree is not meant to have the bow on the tree necessarily. It is more wanting the bow to have a solid background for the full draw. If the background is trees and grass and brush of different texture with shadows and sunlight it can cause illusions. I like the way Pat and others always stand in front of the shed so the background is uniform. ;D Justin
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I agree with the majority as far as having the pic drawn by hand. And I can tell you that tiller is something that is very hard to photograph properly, a very slight cant and you make the tiller look different. Heck even photographing the bow from both sides can give you a different look.
The BOM contest is based on somewhat subjective criteria, but it is adequate I think. Its up to the bowyer to provide adequate photographic evidence of his/her work. Eye candy can't help but affect the judgement of the bow. I'm personally a lousy artist so I always fall short in that category.
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The only example I have is that the cherry osage bow I built. The tiller was not "picture perfect" due to the snakiness, but it shoots 65# @ 26" with ZERO handshock. That to me also says a lot about the bow. But I am a novice too so...this is just one opinion of thousands.
;D
Joe
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Good thread, Justin.
Like others I'm a fan of full draw pics drawn by hand. Though I'm relatively new to this site, I've been active on other sites for quite a while and have seen many, many pics of selfbows.
At this stage in my own bowmaking, the tiller is the ONLY thing for me. The month's that I've voted for BOM, that is my most important criteria. The eye candy stuff doesn't do nearly as much for me.
I'm also a guy that chrono's everything I make. I know, I know, chrono's aren't "primitive" but I know for myself that the challenge is in trying to coax a good performing bow out of wood. Without the chrono, so much is subjective for me. This is not to say that speed is everything, I like quiet and low handshock as well, but speed I can measure, set I can measure, draw weight I can measure.
I'd take an ugly good performing bow over a beautiful "dog" any day of the week.
Stan
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Joe, Perfect till doesn't necessarily mean a perfect bend throughout the bows length or each limb. Look at Manny's latest snake bow :o. By no stretch of the imagination does that bow bend evenly through the limbs but it has perfect tiller for what it is...both limbs are taking their fair share of the stresses.
If your bow shoots well with little or no shock then you've done good. ;D The more experience you have building bows the better you will get. The more you look at bows held at full draw with a neutral background and the bow presented at a right angle to the camera, the better it is to see the tiller of it. I believe this is what Justin was going for with this thread. ;) If we could hold and shoot each of the bows we would probably have a different opinion of them but that is a luxery we don't have. Pat
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If we could hold and shoot each of the bows we would probably have a different opinion of them but that is a luxery we don't have. Pat
Wouldn't it be fun though. ;) Justin
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Yea it sure would be, send yer bows to me and I will take real nice pics ;D
I'm surprised no one has jumped on me for my opinion on the BOM contest, just goes to show
what a fine bunch of folks you all are.
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I think all of us want to not only make a good performing bow, but if possible one that looks good as well. If I'm going to hunt with a bow(no offense meant to those that don't hunt, that's just what I do), I'd rather have a good performing bow over one that performs poorly but looks good.
I've only had one of my bows posted, and I tried to portray it in natural settings to its best light. After reading some of the comments, that may not be the best way to go about it...although everyone has an option of the type pictures they take I guess. I agree that what is most important about a bow is how well it is made, not how good it looks which is secondary in my opinion.
I big time cant the bow when at full draw. Although a picture of that is fine, I agree that a good vertical side full draw profile should be included with the pictures.
Maybe some discussion should take place with some of the following topics.
1) If someone wants their bow to be considered for BOM, they say so up front when posting their pictures???
2) Certain views of the bow must be included, i.e. side braced, side unbraced, side full draw vertical, end-to-end (show string crossing handle), etc.???
3) If possible a solid background to clearly show bows profile???
4) Should a person be allowed to win BOM more then once a year?
5)other...
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I think anybody should be aloud to win multiple times if they are putting out an outstanding product time and time again. (I think we should just ban Gordon for good ;D)
Greg, picture of the string relation to the handle is a good Idea
And I think full draw from both sides to, because selfbows might have a different look on each side, I know my last 2 did a lot
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Mannie, your last couple of bows were so cool they needed pic's from all 360 degrees! ;)
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I don't want to eliminate anyone because they didn't post the pictures I like. Its just not real likely that they will get my vote, if I cant see the tiller very clearly. I like the fact that many posted full draw from both sides on his last bows. If you look from one side it looks like the tiller is off slightly. If you look from the other side you can see the tiller is spot on, it just has a character spot on the other side. This is also the reason why the braced and unbraced profile are so important. If the bow had a lot of natural reflex in one limb it will look goofy at full draw. However, if you see the relaxed profile and the braced profile you can see that the tiller can be perfect without having a perfect arc.
Like others have said, I will also give my vote to a guy who produces a bow that is higher quality and shows great improvement over his other bows. It cant just be good for him, it has to be great for him. Justin
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I usually take a couple shots with my 10 second timer,thats not a lot of time to pick up the bow draw and anchor.The pic that looks the best I'll show.
If I EVER win bow of the month my head will be so big I WILL NEED BIGGER SHOULDERS.
My head will be so big I will move to Holliywood and become a star,or join the circus (probably the later).
I may just become a legend in my own mind ;D
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Yep thats a mellon for sure :o
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I have finally found a use for the 'mirror effect' on my laptop camera. Wow. My actual head is slightly smaller. ;)
J. D. Duff
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I much prefer a natural full-draw as long as the angle, lighting or background does not obscure the true nature of the tiller. Rack mounts leave me cold.
I found people’s comments about form vs. function interesting. If the craftsman has the skills to properly tiller a bow, he certainly possess the skills to make his work visually pleasing - there is no excuse for making an unattractive bow. I would never vote for an ugly bow no matter how good the tiller or cast. But I would never vote for a poorly tillered bow either.
A suggestion I would like to respectfully make of my fellow bowyers is to pay closer attention to your photography. I’m not suggesting that photos be on the level of a professional, but pay attention to the basics, i.e. shadows, composition, background, lighting, etc. For example, it’s so much easier to appreciate someone’s excellent tip work when the picture is in focus, or a fine snakeskin backing when the colors are not washed out. When so much care and effort goes into your work, why hide it with a poor photograph?
Finally, regarding the BOM issue that Pat has raised – as a repeat winner and a recipient of a number of personal messages regarding this subject I’ve thought a lot about this. I can understand the desire to make BOM winners a more inclusive group. On the other hand, I like to see the bar continually raised and the best work rise to the top. I enjoy going head to head with the likes of Manny, Ryan, Keenan, Pat, Marc, JD, Pappy, Frank and the many other fine bowyers who contribute to this site. It has certainly motivated me to improve my skills. That said, I recognize that there can be too much of a good thing and that I have been blessed by this community more than I really deserve so I will ask Don to remove me from further BOM consideration.
Respectfully,
Gordon Ferlitsch
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Actually Gordon, I don't think Pat brought up the issue of BOM. Until PA changes the rules on BOM, which may or may not ever happen, everyone is welcome to submit as many bows as they wish. If you don't wish to submit that is your business, by do it on your own accord, not on any other pretense. Justin
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I do so on my own accord Justin. Thank you.
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i d like to see more people post an f/d curve with the pics.
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Gordon,
If you choose to withdraw your name from future considerations, can I borrow the next bow you make for a photo shoot?.... ;)
Joe
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Gordon, I think you stated very well a good reason for not limiting the amount of wins to one. It helps to keep the bar up high. Anything that keeps the standards high I am in favor of.
I do disagree with your feelings on pretty bows and nice finishes, that means next to nothing to me but I admire those that do finish them nicely. I tend to judge bows by how I imagine they work for what they were intended. You put a lot of work into your bows and it shows and should be rewarded, they are also popular with the visitors here and those that want to compete should keep in mind what wins a lot.
I don't think I heard but one comment regarding how many times someone can win. Things will never be 100% unanimous. Steve
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Badger, I will readily admit that I appreciate beauty simply for its own sake. But there is utility in fine craftsmanship. Tool marks and sharp edges lead to splinters, unshapely handles are uncomfortable to grip, tip overlays that do not flow gracefully into the back are prone to failure, backing that is not neatly trimmed will lift, roughly cut nocks will prematurely wear strings, poorly tapered limbs will either be weak or excessively heavy, a poor finish will eventually admit moisture, and so on. A well built bow is beautiful by design.
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Badger, I will readily admit that I appreciate beauty simply for its own sake. But there is utility in fine craftsmanship. Tool marks and sharp edges lead to splinters, unshapely handles are uncomfortable to grip, tip overlays that do not flow gracefully into the back are prone to failure, backing that is not neatly trimmed will lift, roughly cut nocks will prematurely wear strings, poorly tapered limbs will either be weak or excessively heavy, a poor finish will eventually admit moisture, and so on. A well built bow is beautiful by design.
I don't think anyone is saying they don't like the eye candy. Just that the bow had better be a shooter first and foremost. Most of what you mention is what is required of a bow to be a great bow. The eye candy is the snake skins, custom paint, or colorfull laminations. If you read "Hunting the Osage Bow," Torges would have you believe that the character bows that usually win are inferior bows. Justin
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Gordon I hope I didn't say anything stupid to make you stop posting for BOTM.I truely enjoy looking at your work and for you to decline would not be right.
I VOTE there will be no forfitures if Oldbow submits your work.All in favor say eye!
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Gordon, it would be a great in justice if you wheren't to compete for any future BOM's, you're raising the bar as of late, and I belive many bowyers will agree with me that you're bows are making us try just a little harder ;)
please keep them coming you're an inspiration
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Justin, snakeskins and paint job notwithstanding, much of what gives a bow eye appeal are the same things that make it perform well. With bows, form and function are intertwined - that's why I love building and looking at them.
Mamba, it was nothing you said. Manny, I'm going to take a break for a while and focus on exploring new woods, techniques, designs, and artistic forms. But I will be back - with a vengeance!
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Gordon, You are a good sport. ;) I'm looking forward to seeing(with a vengeance) your new "stuff" when you are ready to show it again.
So as not to put Don(OldBow) to too much extra trouble, if anyone doesn't want their bows considered for BOM, just insert "NOT FOR BOM"or "NO BOM" in with your title when you post pics of your bows. That way Don will know from the beginning to eliminate your bow for consideration. We still wanna see those bows even though you don't want them in BOM.
And! Everyone that builds wood bow, be you seasoned or green, should post pics of your bows if possible. We are here to help the "green" bowyers with any problems and cut the seasoned guys to ribbons! ;D Thats what this site is all about. The sharing of experiences and information. Pat
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Gordon, I couldn't agree more that the craftsmanship being incorporated into a finished bow is part of it's beauty, for that matter I admire the eye candy as well, just not for me personally. Most of us are in this sport with slightly different objectives, sometimes our objectives may even change. I have often felt that performance related threads were squashed a little prematurely and this has limited greatly my particapation in many of the general primitive archery forums. I have seen many guys like yourself who as they reach a higher level of skill tend to just fade away, others stay around but become quieter. I like to see the old timers show off their stuff, and even if they hold back a few tricks here and there, which is rare. The new commers enthusiasm is often a great equalizer to the old timers experience. Makes for a classic dual! Steve
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Thank you Pat - I promise not to disappoint.
Well said Badger, but don't worry - I'm not going out quietly ;)
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"I have often felt that performance related threads were squashed a little prematurely and this has limited greatly my participation in many of the general primitive archery forums." Well said Steve, you are not alone...............bob
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Be a sad day for me when any of the fine bowyers on this site stop posting for consideration for BOM. I don't like the idea of limiting the number of times a person can win in a year at all. Be like tellin' Tiger he can't play in the U.S. Open if he wins the Masters ;)
I think too much is made of multiple winners. I vote for the bows and not the bowyers anyway and to my knowledge no bow has ever one twice.
Stan
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Well said Stan, If you're putting out a great product time and time again, you should be rewarded, and you'll be a greater inspiration to us all to improve our products.
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BOM without Gordon Ferlitsch would just not be the same.
frank
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Gordon it was me who brought up the one win per year idea. It was not directed at you personally or anyone else. I was stating an opinion
maybe an unpopular opinion but my opinion. Nothing more nothing less. But while on the subject let me ask you this. Was your last winning bow truly exceptional work for you? Or was it just another well crafted bow that looked pretty?
Enter or not its your call but either way make sure to continue posting as your an awesome bowyer.
I can't help but notice that people are swayed more by the appearance of a bow than by its function, put skins on a piece of wood and folks ohhh and ahhhh
to me skins are so commonplace that they have lost their attraction.
Badger I've wondered why you don't post pictures of your work?
Ok have I broken enuf eggs yet to make a cake?
Remember an opinion is like an #?*hole everyone has one ;D
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I agree with Frank,I think if you post them they should be considered.I like eye candy but they must also perform.I can promise if it don't perform I wouldn't post it.I with Gordon I think all the extras help make the bow.Yes it must be tillered right to get my vote but it also needs to be pleasing to the eye.As far as someone winning more than once,I think if the people think it is the best bow for the month is should win no matter how many time they have won before.Just my opinion. :) There are to many great bowyers here to take them out just because they won.Keep um coming Gordon !!!! :)
Pappy
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seems cool telling opinions around here...!!!
so here comes mine: may the best win, right?!
and if the best is the same guy 12 X's per year, that's perfectly fine with me i'd say!
"Was your last winning bow truly exceptional work for you? Or was it just another well crafted bow that looked pretty?"
... well: i posted this bow but hey it's just another well-crafted bow that does look pretty but even if it might be better crafted and prettier then other bows posted here it may not be truly exceptional work for me so you better don't vote for it if it shows up on BOM ... ???
dana, if you win BOM one day and 2 month later you made a better bow (or prettier bow...and you probably would...) it would be a loss for all of us if you didn't post it or if it was banned from BOM for whatever reason.
if we all had the chance too shoot every bow on BOM (which i think would be fun for the archers/bowyers but maybe not fun for the bows) we STILL would have MANY different opinions, wouldn't we: one likes bendy handles the other don't, one likes short draw, the other don't, one likes snakeskins the other don't (and nobody would shoot the bows blind-folded, right??)
we had so many beautifull bows on last month's BOM, many had winning potential, missing one of them for whatever posting/voting restrictions would not make any sence to me at all.
(btw: siouxman made a good point asking why a sinew-backed bow is not considdered a backed bow)
...and i'd say it's just BOM not brain surgery!
cheers, frank
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The concerns expressed by others here are the same as mine. I don't see how any one can judge a bow by a picture? I have had the good fortune to shoot bows made by DMC, Badger, Rod Parson and a few more PA members. All were fine shooting bows.None of the bows were highly decorated but were masterpieces in my eyes and proven to be when handled.I have made many a bow myself but I have never entered one for the BOM.The true character of a bow can't be judged over a forum. This is my excuse.I also know that some bows summited for BOM are superb and as good as they get, but there will always be doubt until you put them to the test..... No amount of rouge and lip stick will make a bow shoot well but it will garner votes.
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I wish more people would post pics of their bows good, bad, and ugly. Each bow has its story and we can all learn something from each one.
Their are many on this forum that never post any bows. I'm sure some of us novices are intimated by most of you guys and feel that posting a pic of their
bow isn't worth the effort, especially when many of you view the pics and don't bother with a reply! It only takes a second to offer some constructive
advice or a job well done. Just because the bow ain't pretty doesn't mean that its not an effective weapon. I've only been a member of this forum for about 6 months
but I have jumped in with both feet so to speak, no lurking for me. I post pics of my bows because I want your opinion good or bad. I don't take any offense and don't mean to offend anyone when I voice my opinion. As far as the BOM contest goes its Don's show he can run it any way he choses, I just wish more people would vote
and look beyond the obvious.
So have I put my foot in my mouth yet again? :-\
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Dana, one thing I have noticed in the last couple of years is less constructive critisism (spelling?) I might see a bow that is 90% good with just one item I feel is worthy of a critical comment, I have seen others chastised and experienced it myself for making critical comments. I kind of like a tougher more honest approach to commenting, say the good and the bad. I don't know of anyone here who's heart is not in the right palce when they critique a bow. Sometimes you will see a new commers first bow, he is proud as a pea cock and rightfully so. But the bow might be awful. I think a healthy critique is a better way to go along with congrats that the bow itself didn't break. These discussions that come here once in a while I think are good things, Steve
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Badger I agree with you to an extent, however, when you are a novice building a bow that simply shoots and stays together is a feat in itself and worth celebrating. I look back at some of my first works and I just shudder now, but I am glad folks were measured in their criticism because I needed all the encouragement I could get to work my way through a long string of failed attempts. I’m not saying that we don’t point out obvious flaws like hinges, uneven tiller, inappropriate designs, etc. But some elements just take time to develop and should be encouraged in a positive manner (IMO). As for those of us who can no longer claim novice status, have at it – no diplomacy is necessary.
Dana, well said.
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When I post a bow, I want and expect honest feedback, that's how I learn things that I didn't know before. I have seen a couple people get ticked off about constructive criticism of their bows, but that is quite rare- I think that most people are like me, and would like for someone who is more experienced to point out ways that we can improve our future bows.
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Badger and Gordon glad ya didn't take offense at any of my comments. I made a criticiism of someones bow once and it got
ugly for a while but in the end we became friends and message each other to see whats new and such. If we all saw eye to eye on everything
it wouldn't be much of a forum now would it? I've said it before when I post pics of bow, have at me, don't be derogoatory but feel free to driticize
my bow. One other thing many of you when ya first started had the opportunity to train with an accomplised bowyer, thats like starting out school in 10th grade
most of us have to wing it thru books, internet and trial and error, makes it much tougher. Many of us also make due with what we can get cheap or free. fer instance where I live there is no osage, yew, ERC, mulberry, locust, elm, rattlesnakes, knappable rock, no primitive archer clubs or shoots etc. Don't own land to cut wood and its illegal to cut on state or federal land and don't have lots of disposable income to spend. I have to say that I have gotten some freebee's from folks on here with the promise of returning the favor down the road. And I much appreciate the generousity. I also have sent some items to folks without asking for anything in return. But realisticly try getting someone to tarde ya some osage for maple ;D I've been to the other forum sites and this is the best of the rest, a nice place to be with good folks.
Thanks for reading my ramblings eh.
Dana
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Great thread everybody. I keep getting ready to post and end up deleting my message. Here's another attempt.
Gordon,
One reason why people have advocated limiting the number of wins is because this is a relatively subjective competition and the best bow doesn't necessarily win every month (or any month). You have won more times than anyone else so far but I have only seen one bow of yours that had a truly right-angled photo of the tiller--that was the first bow you won with. In most cases you are photographed with a natural, slightly-cated, slightly angled photo. You can tiller, so I'm not criticising that, but I am saying you could give the afficianados of bow design a chance to really pick apart the tiller with a perfect right-angled shot or a tillering tree shot. Another thing is, you're ambush bow was a dominant winner last month, but why? Most of us know that the ambush design depends on high early draw weight to perform well and 2" of set would put this bow in 'below average' category as far as performance goes. You admitted yourself that you had made the bow too narrow--so--it wasn't properly designed. Other than the design problems you mentioned and the below-average performance, your bow was perfect.
I love your bows but I thought I should balance out the praise with the reality that even your bows are subject to legitimate criticism.
J. D. Duff
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yes, this IS a great thread!
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Don't think eye candy will win you BOM anyway, put snake skins, beautifull handle on a badly crafted/tillered bow, it still won't go the distance, too many talented bowyers here to be fooled.
Pappy's snake bow, would have won even without the skins because it basicaly was a great example of crafmanship and tillering exellence.
As for, "how can you judge bow from pictures alone ?" .....c'mon, of course it would be better to have a panel of judges shooting them, but is it feasable ???? ::) ::)
BOM is a great little friendy contest ( I used to love checking and dreaming of BOM's when I first subscribed to P.A. ) and I think it's just fine as it is,...only I belive you should give us rookys a couplle of points to start with ;D ;D
Agree with Steve, I'd like to see a bit more criticism from the obious top bowyers that lurk on this forum, I'd like to have some of that mixed in with the praises, there's somting to learn with each bow, and for people that take it the wrong way,...well to bad for them ;), Good point Hillbilly and Gordon, as a variation on the subject.
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Thanks JD, thats a good obsevation and reinforces my belief that alot of people vote based on eye candy appeal.
If it looks pretty it must be a great bow. Take koans recent post "My Ugly Bow" its very nicely tillered but nothing fancy about it no skins,
no fancy colors but by no means an ugly bow. I don't post a bow specifically to be in the BOM but I'm sure some do.
I think we all need to take a second look before we cast a vote.
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That was a good post JD, sounded a little harsh at first but you made excellent points. When it comes to the old timers I think we should be ruthless with one another LOL. When it comes to newbees take into consideration the time they have been building bows. I often vote for relatively new bowyers because I see a lot of improvement. We can vote based on our own criteria rather than one layed down by a format, this is a good thing. I like to post bows that make some kind of a point because I am usually experimenting with some particular aspect of a bow. I used to even post bows that didn't work out to well and then try to explore why they didn't. I view this forum as a show and tell as well as an online workshop. I do think that a sidenote such as "not for b.o.m" is a good idea for Don. Great thread you guys. Steve
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JD, I agree with your assessment of my ambush bow - it followed the string too much to qualify as an exceptional bow (IMO). I thought I made that clear in my narative, but folks voted for it anyway. Your point about my F/D shots not being perfectly straight on is well taken - I'll work on that.
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The moderators have been discussing this matter for a while and our main concern is that the folks that would benefit the most from posting pics of their bows would be the new guys on the block that are learning our craft. These are the folks we want to encourage and help so they can produce a bow(s) that they are proud of. By entering a full draw pic, you automatically are elegable for BOM consideration. It is my feeling that everyone should post pics of their bows and be ready for the suggestions and criticisms that will help make them better bowyers.
BOM is decided by us, the members of the PA website. We each have a vote and we each vote for the bow(and sometimes the bowyer) we like the best, for whatever reason. I can't imaging that Gordon is stacking the deck by sending out $10 bills to everyone that votes for his bows. He is getting the votes fairly and squarely and I have no problem with that. I just don't want new folks to think that they are not good enough to post bows. That is how we, as bowyers, become better bowyers...by constructive criticism and example and accepting it in the manner that it was meant to be taken.
I don't post bows with expectations of winning BOM. I have won twice(which amazed me) and each time I have a bow(s) for consideration, I check the results constantly to see where I stand in the runnings and I am pleased with every vote I get but getting few or no votes doesn't discourage me. If anything it encourages me to do better the next time and IMO that is what BOM should be all about.
So please, everyone submit your bows for remarks, criticism and to find out what you need to do next with your project, if that is the case, and if you do not want your bow considered for BOM, simply writh" NO BOM" in your title so Don will know not to consider your bow for BOM, but you will still get the help or criticisms you are looking for from this wonderful group of folks. Pat
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outstanding thread and comments!
I've spent way too much time thinking about this "issue" of winning BOM multiple times. Bottom line is the community as a whole votes for what they, as best as can be determined from pictures, what the Best Bow is. If people don't think a person should win more then once then they can just vote fro someone else. No need to change the rules.
I would humbly ask that people PLEASE post their bows regardless of the BOM contest. This site is not about the contest it's about sharing and learning primitive archery.
As for criticism and praise. There's a couple of simple things we can do to avoid problems.
Try to always find something positive/good to say about the bow and if you have CONTRUCTIVE criticism to offer do so with the utmost respect. Let the person know your trying to help them and not just putting them down. And as mom used to say, "if you can't find anything good to say don't say anything at all"
That's my $.02
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Dana, I've been reading your comments with much interest, and one conclusion I've come to is the following...
fer instance where I live there is no osage, yew, ERC, mulberry, locust, elm, rattlesnakes, knappable rock, no primitive archer clubs or shoots etc. Don't own land to cut wood and its illegal to cut on state or federal land
...you need to pull up roots and move down south where the osage trees grow with character, and the timber rattlers are healthy...did I forget to mention "Dover Flint"? ;D
ok, yall can get serious again now... ;)
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Funny ya should bring up that subject Greg, I'm 5 years away from retirement on this job. I broached the subject with the wife
the other day about moving south. She didn't care for the idea to much ??? I'm really getting tired of 9 months of crappy weather, today is nice
71 degrees this is only the third day this year that the temp has hit 70 here in Manistique, of course were right on Lake Michigan with breezes
off the lake keeping the temp down, I'm also getting real fed up with Michigans hunting laws and fees. So If I move to Tenn will ya teach me to cook Osage? ;D
Gordon you did make it clear that your bow could have been better and I appreciate that you stated that fact. Regardless your a top notch bowyer with tons of skill and an artistic talent to boot. I always enjoy your posts so it would be a shame if ya quit posting your bows. Isn't it amazing that when we all disagree on something we end up finding common ground. Ok I'm done for the day need to make shavings ;D
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Thanks Marvin. I've written two messages now, having spent over an hour on it today at separate times, and not posted them. Yours really hit the mark I was aiming for.
The only thing I can add to the discussion is this. I wish more folks would post their projects, or parts of same, as they build along. To be honest, once the bow is finished the best part of it is done for me. Seems like BOM tends to naturally focus too much attention on the finished product for my tastes. I'd more likely vote for a bow where the bowyer bumped his head a time or two along the way but saved it, than a project that looks perfect at the end without any indication of whether the project was challenging or a gimme.
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Addendum:
Lot's of the comments on this thread (and Justin's reason for starting it) have been stating that a truly excellent bow--first and foremost--needs to be well-tillered and designed. We cannot test each bow before we vote but very good photographs can tell a lot about how a bow will perform. That being said, very good pictures of the tiller are important. Tillering trees are lifeless things but they help us produce superior bows so I think a picture on the tree should always be included if possible.
I wasn't trying to be harsh with Gordon at all. He is a major celebrity here and has won more times than anyone. The 'why did your bow win' part of my comment was meant to illustrate that bows are not always picked because of excellent design, tiller, or performance. Gordon was very forthright about the amount of set the bow took and the fact that he would build it differently if he did it again. Yet, it won in a landslide--anihilating a lineup of excellent bows. More often than not, beauty will trump everything else.
I appreciate all the comments here about how much people like seeing the bows. After I won BOM in November I stopped posting bows altogether. I just thought people might be getting tired of seeing what I'm doing. I'll try to get into a rythm of posting bows again, too.
J. D. Duff
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The funny thing about posting bows is that the guys that the guys that benefit from Gordon posting his bows are the new guys also. If Gordon, Trapper, Marc and others don't post their bows, the new guys wont see what is possible and push their own ability. I always looked for the straightest cleanest staves I could find. After seeing some of the bows posted, I look for a solid piece of wood of any shape. This makes a better bowyer. I have never won BOM, but if the field is limited, what does winning mean.
If you choose not to enter that is your business. But please post your bows. If not I will have to go to the store and stare at compounds if I want to see bows. Primitive bows are all eye candy to me.
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JD, first let me say that I cannot conceive how anyone could tire of seeing your work – I certainly never will!
The discussion about f/d shots on a tillering tree brings to mind something that has perplexed me for some time now. If you look at the f/d shot of Badger’s recent submission (now THAT’s an ambush bow) you will notice that the limb on the right appears to bend less near the fade than the other limb. But I bet if the limbs were reversed the limb on the right would still appear that way. I’ve noticed the same effect with my tiller tree and I now sight down each limb when the bow is braced to make sure I see the appropriate curvature near each fade rather than rely strictly on what I see on the tree. At first I thought it was the angle, or maybe the light, or just me but then I noticed the same effect in Badger’s picture. Has anyone else experienced this? ???
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JD, I don't think any of us will ever get tired of seeing pics of bows, that's one of the main reasons we're here. I haven't had much time lately to work on bows, so I can make them vicariously through y'all lol. Don't dare let something like that crabapple bow you posted slip by without showing us some pics :)
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There has been alot of good points made .This is a good Thread.I would hate to see anyone not post a bow because they have won before.I like to see all the bows and get some new ideas.Any way to say I'm not going to post my bow for BOM is kinda prissy,like saying I know I'd win any way. :-\
I was lucky enough to get a hat,and when I posted my pictures I had no idea it would be a winner,(the first Tie).It was a "plain Jane" looking Osage,didn't even have a grip.So the simple ones win too.It was also my first "good" bow and I was proud as hell,after being inspired by bows of Marc's,Jawge,Marvin,Badger's,ya'll get the picture.
Maybe Gordon's bow didn't get all those votes for being pretty.It might be that everybody voted for it because they didn't mind 2" of set in such a short bow.And would still make a good hunting bow.I'm with Medicinewheel.If the same person wins 12 times a year,more power to him.Keep raising the bar.
Now I'll give my opinion and everybody can take it for whatever it's worth.I believe sometimes there is too much concern on here about winning and being "famous" then just making bows and having fun. :)
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Primitive bows are all eye candy to me.
I agree Justin! ;)
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I believe sometimes there is too much concern on here about winning and being "famous" then just making bows and having fun. :)
YEP!!! I don't make bows to win BOM, just like I don't hunt for anyone else's benefit. I do it because I like it. Justin
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JD, I don't think any of us will ever get tired of seeing pics of bows,
OH speak for yourself. I personally am sick of seeing all those perfect bows. I want to see a broken one. Haven't you heard, if you aren't breaking them, you ain't making them. ;D Justin
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JD, I don't think any of us will ever get tired of seeing pics of bows,
OH speak for yourself. I personally am sick of seeing all those perfect bows. I want to see a broken one. Haven't you heard, if you aren't breaking them, you ain't making them. ;D Justin
You asked for it: eye candy.
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q35/duffontap/Break.jpg)
J. D.
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Vine Maple kindling?...I know that one all too well!
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Hmmm ! Looks familiar ! >:( ;D.....bob
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Vine Maple all right. I hated that bow so much. After a couple weeks of trying every spine of arrow I gave up on it. It was only about 1 1/2" wide and 68" n2n but I drew it to 32" all the time for exercise. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, BOOOOOOOMMMMM!
J. D. Duff
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Nice bow and the tiller is spot on ;D
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Thanks Dana. The tiller actually looks normal at the 27" draw I tillered it to. Even after all the abuse the bow only had 1" of string follow after a hard workout. Totally worthless as a shooter. I really hated it.
J. D. Duff
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OH sure, make it sound like it was on purpose. ;) It does make me feel a little better. ;D Justin
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I've seen that before JD. :) I defiantly don't build bows to win BOM but it is kind of like I don't go to shoots expecting to win ,but I do like to know if I happen to have a good day I might.I was building bows long before I even heard of BOW or even had a computer,I just thought people might like to see them I know I do and if they like it all the better. :)
Pappy