Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: fishfinder401 on May 24, 2011, 10:11:25 pm
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im going to start another build along, its going to be a osage molly warbow, hoping for 150@32 but will accept any heavy weight, and everyone following my white ash build along, don't worry, i haven't given up on it, im just waiting on the fast flight to come in the mail which should be in the next few days, then ill take a few week break to finish the white ash, and then, get back to work on this new one, the stave is around 74-76ish, and has almost 0 degrees of propeller twist to be steamed out. ill hopefully have some picture up soon, im planning on have the tips, or levers(whatever they are called on a molly) be about 18inches, bend through the handle, with the handle being 1 1/2by 1/2
thanks for following
noel
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Hi Noel,
Why not aim for the same weight (and possibly draw length ?????) as your ash bow, then you can perform a comparison of their performance. I would also suggest that the "molly" would be a heavy bow not a warbow, I am unaware of their being any records of the style being used specifically for war.
If you do such tests the results would be very interesting.
Best of luck with the endeavour.
Craig.
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by the look of it, they will be comparable weights and lengths so i will see how they preform in comparison to each other, also by warbow, i meant a bow of "warbow" weights, it already looks impressive to me, i thined the tips out to make the levers or whatever they are called, and im giddy with anticipation ;D
thanks
noel
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Please post photos as you go, am very interested in seeing the progression.
What wood are you using?
Craig.
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i will, and the wood is osage orange, compliments of gstoneberg ;D
noel
PS: i was just watching the news, please everyone pray for those in Oklahoma and Texas, i heard of 5 tornadoes near Oklahoma city on the ground at once
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i will, and the wood is osage orange, compliments of gstoneberg ;D
noel
PS: i was just watching the news, please everyone pray for those in Oklahoma and Texas, i heard of 5 tornadoes near Oklahoma city on the ground at once
It seems to be a very bad tornado season for you folks in the USA, my thoughts and hopes for safety go with those affected by the storms.
Craig.
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-There are not evidence this design has been used for war, but I'm sure they used it for war. I doubt they needed the same draw weight as the warbows of later times, as they didn't have to go through that same protective armour.
But definition of a warbow.. -A bow meant for war, or just a bow heavy enough to penetrate armour, or does it also have to have one specific design..?
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Lets see some photos!!! lol or else I'm going to think you're making up stories Noel!
Craig, its been pretty rough for some people, something like 5-6 times the average number in April last I heard.
Adam
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Hey Noel, sure hope that osage makes a good bow for you. I'd like to see pictures too.
George
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ok, ill defiantly get some pictures up today, i finally got my fast flight in so more progress on the white ash warbow will come very soon
noel
PS: by warbow, i , mean a bow of the strength typically associated with warbows, not the design
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Im watching >:Dhahahahahaaaaaahe ;D Look forward to seeing both build allongs, you are a better man than me I have thought about doing a build allong but never take the time for pictures as I go. ;D
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-There are not evidence this design has been used for war, but I'm sure they used it for war. I doubt they needed the same draw weight as the warbows of later times, as they didn't have to go through that same protective armour.
But definition of a warbow.. -A bow meant for war, or just a bow heavy enough to penetrate armour, or does it also have to have one specific design..?
No to me it does not have to be of any specific design just that it was intended for war and not intended for hunting and as an adjunct used for war. The "molly" design exists in a single small fragment from Denmark, which is thought by some to be a light child's bow, the South Anderman Island bows (which are of somewhat similar shape) and despite being "man sized" are also relatively light hunting bows. The English and Welsh, the Turks, the Arabs, the tartars and the Cherokee Native Americans made war bows, bows that were distinct from their normal hunting bow. It is also likely a host of others did as well.
As for being certain it was used for war, I would not be so adamant, as I said only one fragment has been found of that design. Given the predilection of the a "ancient Danes" to offering/depositing weapons of war into bogs, swamps and lakes, one would have expected to see more of the design turning up if it were used as a warbow.
Craig.
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how about this, it may not have been traditionally used for war, but if someone tries to take over my house, you can bet it will be used for war against them, whether the enemy is 1 or 1000 8)
noel
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how about this, it may not have been traditionally used for war, but if someone tries to take over my house, you can bet it will be used for war against them, whether the enemy is 1 or 1000 8)
noel
;D
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Get cracking then unless your going to beat them to death with a stave.
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This bows was not so big and heavy weight originaly. But from all kind of bow design schould make a "warbow"
That time the hunting bow was the weapon in the war. Whitout armour they doesn't need the heavy warbows as Nidrinr mentioned.
I think for a heavy warbow the longbow design is better on this drawlenght. On a 28-29 draw may a pyramidal flatbow is better.
On a molly the lever end of the bow have to build enough strong to handle this weight. That will indicate to much weight and this bow designed for light weight tips. So my opinion is a pyramidal design will be faster.
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ya, i agree, the levers will defiantly decide the final weight, well i guess ill just have to see, by the way, i should have some progress tonight along with the white ash so check back on both later
noel
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Noel please put up some pictures ;)
Lane
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im so sorry, i will as soon as i can, most of my time is now taken by the little fishies who are calling to me ;D
again, im sorry for the recent picture drought bu t will be ended soon
norl
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ok, sorry for the delay, here are pics of the edge profile, the levers, tips....... whatever you call them, and an example of the twist i have to remove.... yes that with the other end flat on its back :o
noel
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SWEET, I milked them pics right outta ya, lol. Lookin good.
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Noel, your levers look the same thickness as your limbs? Wouldn't you normally leave them thicker on a molly? Sorry about that twist. :(
George
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yah, right now the levers are the same thickness, i have barely started to reduce them, and don't worry about the twist, wood with severe twist is better than no wood at all ;D, i have a full bow steaming set up that works great, while im at it, i think i might add some reflex, depends on what im up for
thanks
noel
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What makes a warbow "molly?" sorry im a newb ::) im going to order my first ELB from 3 rivers archery as soon as i get the cash :D
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What makes a warbow "molly?" sorry im a newb ::) im going to order my first ELB from 3 rivers archery as soon as i get the cash :D
well.... a warbow can have many different meanings, some people like me say a very heavy bow(usually 80+) some say a bow that can be or was used for war, others have the definition of warbow meaning a traditional mary rose replica style
a molly or the full name mollegabet is a bow with stiff tips or levers that are deeper but narrower saving on weight and adding speed, i think
if anyone else wants to add to these definitions, go ahead, and be sure to correct me if i wrong
noel
PS: young bowyer, i was a "newb" going back a few months, and to many i still am, but don't worry.people here are very willing to help usually in any way they can, good luck. Oh-ya, the elb you are getting, is it pre-made or is it a kit
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The bow is premade red oak with hickory backing and horn nocks and thanks, im trying to learn everything i can haha :)
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I like what I see Noel, keep 'em coming.
yo.bo. if you need help start a thread. Like the warbow kid said, people here will help and most know a bunch.
Lane
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What makes a warbow "molly?" sorry im a newb ::) im going to order my first ELB from 3 rivers archery as soon as i get the cash :D
Have a look around on here and on Paleoplanet, the 'Mollegabet", (please excuse the lack of use of the umlaut etc) was erroneously referred to as a holmgaard in The Traditional Bowyer's Bible and is still referred to by that name by people who won't accept the error. Both names are areas of Denmark where artifacts were found. The Holmgaard finds were of an almost complete bow and a good part of another, these bows have pyramid type limbs, the Mollygabet artifact is the majority of one limb of a bow that has the outer section as (probably stiff) levers.
See http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=17521.0 for some photos of the two sets of artefacts.
A "respected" archaeologist believes that the original Mollygabet was a very light weapon and was probably made for a child. It is the only one of its type found, although there are somewhat similar designs used by some of the Anderman islanders from the Indian Ocean. As the ancient Danes, (although not necessarily from the same time as the Mollegabett or the Holmgaards), were fond of depositing weapons of war into bogs, swamps, lakes and the like, supposedly as offerings to their gods in times of victory, and as no other finds of the Mollegabet type have been found the odds are that it was not a weapon of war and was indeed a child's weapon.
Craig.
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Thanks Craig and Fishfinder! :D Im really liking this forum! Not many people in my area shoot traditional or make bows for that matter.
This really helps, thanks, YB
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That time the hunting bow was the weapon in the war.
While probably correct this statement is only an assumption and should not be stated as fact, we do not have sufficient data to draw any such conclusion, we do have data that shows that some groups of people, admittedly from different areas of the globe, did use different bows for war. The fact none have been found is not absolute proof of their absence it is only an indicator.
"Whitout armour they doesn't need the heavy warbows as Nidrinr mentioned."
Again another assumption, heavy bows are not only used for war, what weight bow would you choose to use against an Auroch, standing 2m at the shoulders, weighing over a tonne, and with the disposition of a cut snake? Ötzi's bow, even if it is accepted as being unfinished, was not exactly a light "hunting bow".
What weight bow was used to hunt with in Medieval Britain? again we don't know, we have books written fro the gentry advocating "light bows that can be held at half draw", now if you can pull a bow you can hold it at half draw relatively easily, so these books are nonsense and are for the gentry anyway. We do have anecdotal evidence in the form of both paintings, prose and arrow heads, that suggest the hunting bow was heavy, Look at some of the paintings contemporary to the times the bows appear to be heavy, Geoffry Chaucer wrote "The Canterbury Tales" sometime between 1387 and 1400, and in it he has a character called the Yeoman who was a "proper forester" that is a person responsible for looking after the forest, enforcing forest law and hunting or arranging hunts for his lord, according to the prose this "hunter" bore a mighty bow, not a light bow but a mighty bow. You also only have to look at the swallow tail broadhead which wasit is believe is only intended for hunting deer and you will see that it could not be used in a light bow.
Craig
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Craig, ive heard the accounts of the molly being a childs bow,and i dont dispute them. It is a great and efficient design if tillered properly (all too often bending in excess near the handle). I am curious about the design evolution of different styles and i think each had its on purpose and was based on generations perfecting its on designs. Which brings me to wonder if the actual bow remant found was a childs bow based on a design used by adults, either way ive built 25 or more mollys and their a proven design to me .
Noel , lookin forward to seeing this osage molly come to life . have you got it bending yet ?
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not much free time lately, im currently finishing up my ash warbow, and trying to complete all my school work, my teachers this year put more work this week than in some entire months :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Ken,
Well, at least the Molly you sent me isn't a kids bow... My buddy came over the other night, we went in the back yard and shot it.. Talk about a fast, flat and hard hitting bow! I sit in class sometimes just thinking of getting home and shooting that bow..
I never really saw myself hunting "primitive" with an arrow that I made and a flint head.. Just didn't think I could be efficient and I wouldn't go after deer as a so so archer.. They deserve better than that.. BUT after shooting that Molly for just a short time I am a changed man. I have been converted. My neighbor brought me a flint arrowhead on Sunday that I intend to put on an arrow that I make and shoot it from that Molly.. I need to name that bow, and I'm gonna put skins on it..
PS.. Diego absolutley loves the Molly you made for him!! He's good with it too.. And Rich, that Molly you made my daughter is now adorned with with horse hair (from her hoese- a descendent of Secretariat), and she enjoys shooting it and admiring the bow!
Thank you Rich and Ken for graciously giving to my family, especially my children ;)
y'all are real gents
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Craig, ive heard the accounts of the molly being a childs bow,and i dont dispute them. It is a great and efficient design if tillered properly (all too often bending in excess near the handle). I am curious about the design evolution of different styles and i think each had its on purpose and was based on generations perfecting its on designs. Which brings me to wonder if the actual bow remant found was a childs bow based on a design used by adults, either way ive built 25 or more mollys and their a proven design to me .
Ken,
It may well be that the bow was based on an adult sized one, it equally may not, until other contemporary artifacts of similar design are found it is only speculation either way. And yes I have seen the photos of similar shaped bows being exhibited in a Russian museum but doubt its veracity. I have yet to find any reports on such bows.
It may well be that such a design escaped acceptance or recognition by the people at the time or were regarded as being too much work for little to no gain.
Craig.
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have you built any mollys craig ? they may not have been wide spread or accepted but im damn glad some portion of an artifact remains for us to base our work on. i alter mine by tapering width of the working limb wether historically accurate or not it is an improvement in design . it keeps from concentrating the force at the handle fades
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nevermind i went through all your post and you dont do pics
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nevermind i went through all your post and you dont do pics
that sounds a little stalker ish :D i know its not, just a quick first glance
by the way, this discussion is giving me allot of background on these bows
thanks
noel
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have you built any mollys craig ? they may not have been wide spread or accepted but im damn glad some portion of an artifact remains for us to base our work on. i alter mine by tapering width of the working limb wether historically accurate or not it is an improvement in design . it keeps from concentrating the force at the handle fades
No I don't, I do not like the aesthetics of the bow design, the majority of bows I make are medieval style English bend through the handle Warbows with the occasional lighter weight stiff handled ELB. Which is why I have trouble finding suitable native Australian woods for my bows.
Now having answered your question may I ask the reason behind it? The discussion was on the historical facts not on who made these bows or their relative efficiency.
Craig.
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just the way the conversation rolled ,dont worry bout it these tend to stray all the time. historical facts are great but i get the most joy from the build and im interested in the performance also like most others are i believe.
elb bows are fine ,the ones i've built have had more hand shock than i like , but i guess with heavy enough arrows like i would imagine were used with them it would calm them a bit.
as far as bow wood quality you should make friends with some of these Yanks they got some wood that would work with your design.
Noel , i'll hush now so you can post us some pictures of your "osage molly warbow" lookin forward to it !
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Ken75
as far as bow wood quality you should make friends with some of these Yanks they got some wood that would work with your design.
Unfortunately it costs in the region of $150 to have a stave (warbow sized) couriered from the states to Australia, I know that is what it cost for the yew stave I have seasoning in my shed. The stave itself cost $250 so all together $400. Makes the hobby a tad expensive even if the stave were free.
If you are getting hand shock from ELBs I suggest that your limb tips are probably too massive, or possibly your horns are too big or both, what you must remember is that even the really heavy Mary Rose bows were only approximately 1/2" (12.5mm) dia at the point where they began the cone for the horns, that is a point 40 to 50mm from the tip of the limb. So lighter bows should have correspondingly lighter tips.
Craig.