Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Bryce H on May 26, 2011, 01:08:08 pm
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I've heard everything. They've been 'used' so that the arrow itself doesn't plug the wound in the animal up, encouraging faster bleeding. Except, that doesn't make sense- the grooves are far to small to allow any recognizable amount of blood out. They've been 'used' for ceremonial purposes. Maybe, but when I read something is ceremonial, unless it is patently obvious, I assume it's only because they didn't know what it was actually used for.
I think the most logical explanation for them, and I'm sure y'all have seen it, comes from Jim Hamm in the Bowyer's Bible (vol. 3). It keeps the shaft straighter, longer.
So the question is- have any of you read any further information from further studies that conclude this hypothesis to be correct? It seems to be the most logical of all the references that I've read..
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I have used "lightening grooves" on a few primitive arrows. I think the actual purpose was to help keep the arrows straight by adding stiff ridges along the shaft. By grooving the shaft you will have 2 ridges along eacg groove. These ridges dry quicker and are stiffer than the surrounding wood thus supporting the shaft. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!! :D
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I have used "lightening grooves" on a few primitive arrows. I think the actual purpose was to help keep the arrows straight by adding stiff ridges along the shaft. By grooving the shaft you will have 2 ridges along eacg groove. These ridges dry quicker and are stiffer than the surrounding wood thus supporting the shaft. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!! :D
That was Hamm's conclusion too, and to me makes by far the most logical sense. I honestly just got the Bowyer's Bible the other day, and reading that was a "Eureka!" moment.
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I'm sure there were probably cermonial reasons too but arrow straightness seems to be the most practical reason.
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I tried that straightening deal on several green arrow shafts and they didn't stay straight. That's after I read about Hamm's reasoning.
I've mentioned this several times before but I reckon it bears repeating. Before I ever heard of other folks conclusions of grooves I was experimenting with them to reduce spine on shafts but still maintain physical weight. For short arrows, flexable enough to shoot around a wide handle bow, shafts would wind up being very light in physical weight.
But if keeping the shaft straight is the real deal, it does make one wonder how the plains Indians knew that a groove would accomplish that. Perhaps they were using a groove for some other purpose and discovered that a groove had other uses. Who really knows, experiment for yourself.........Art
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Art, did it reduce spine without reducing physical weight? I never thought about that.
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Very interesting, Art....
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I've made many arrows with lightning marks. In my experience, they do NOT affect straightness or any other physical property of the arrow in any significant way. Make 100 arrows with lightning marks and you'll come to the same conclusion. Make 3 with lightning marks and you will not gain any insight whatsoever.
Most lightning marks are not straight, they are wavy. How do you think that this logically keeps the arrow any straighter? Jim Hamm makes his lightning marks with a wooden block with a nail or screw tip sticking out of a groove in the block. They appear to be deep and straight. Deep and straight are not characteristics of lightning marks. They are characteristic of flutes. Flutes have been shown to maintain the strength of a material while removing mass, like a flute down the blade of a sword. I have not seen any test results that show that arrows benefit from the addition of these flutes, however.
Lightning marks are aesthetic. They symbolized power. The power of lightning. Perhaps they symbolized other things in different cultures but they are symbolic and intended to be symbolic, imparting a "spirit" of power to the arrow. They are good "medicine".
Laubin gives an explanation of lightning grooves and their purpose in his book, "American Indian Archery" on page 113. He says, "Old Sioux warriors I knew insisted that the grooves in the shaft represented lightning and made the arrow fly straight. In fact, some insisted an arrow would not fly straight unless so treated." He goes on to say, "They also said that the grooves kept the shaft from warping, and it may have had some deterrent effect." Also, "It is certain that the grooves had nothing to do with bleeding an animal, and it would seem that they were mainly ceremonial."
Laubin was open to the idea that the grooves may have been useful in preventing warping, but he knew he could not prove it. He knew it might just be coincidence that some of his grooved arrows stayed straighter than some of his ungrooved arrows. In any case he concludes, "But no arrow artificially straightened in the first place, as the Indians had to do, will stay straight forever, although the grooves may have delayed warping."
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/2010-12-28-Southern%20Plains%20Arrow/DSC_1517.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/2010-12-28-Southern%20Plains%20Arrow/DSC_1516.jpg)
(http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg112/jackcrafty/2010-12-28-Southern%20Plains%20Arrow/DSC_1511.jpg)
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I didn't have a spine tester back then Pat, but I could easily tell that the grooves reduced the shaft's spine. Just confirmed that with a grooved shaft I had. I took and deepened it's grooves a little more and dropped it's weight 5 more pounds. That's a 3 groove shaft.
But I started out with just one groove originally to reduce the stiff side of a sourwood shaft. Got the bright idea of using four grooves to reduce the shaft's spine but retain a lot of physical weight suitable for a heavy hunting arrow.
Like I said earlier, this was before I ever heard or read about lightening grooves. My original intent was to eliminate the stiff side of the shaft making it easier to keep a green shaft straight........Art
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Possibly aiding the "straight flight" aerodynamically, in the same way that rifling a barrel to put spin on the projectile aids accuracy? You're not just reliant on the fletches to help out with it.
As for "not plugging up the wound and helping the animal to bleed more..." well that's just like the idiots that sell knives and swords with a "blood fuller" or "blood groove" in the blade. They maintain the blade is hollowed out so that, in the event of being plunged tip first into a body, suction doesn't stop the blade from being pulled out easily. Yeah... right... The only practical reason for grinding away blade material is to make the blade lighter. There are, however, aesthetic purposes for some steel removal in blades.
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I never bought the "Bleeder" line either. The broadhead is usually larger than the shaft so there would be room for the blood to ooze out. In warfare it doesn't matter if you bleed internally or externally. Bleed out is bleed out!
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Excellent, Jackcrafty. Thanks!
I'm still very new to bow/arrow making, as you may be able to tell.
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I too read Jim Hamm on the subject but must admit to being somewhat skeptical of the explanation.
Has anyone done any tests with a batch of arrows harvested at the same time and prepared at the same time with some made with the groves others without and recorded the results?
Craig.
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I did a few but my friend and mentor did it a little different he said it was for staightness. He had a jig the arrows lenth in a board rounded out and layed the arrow it. Added clamps to the ends a had another jig of finishing nail welled to a metal handle. AND BURN HIS IN I think he did it because thats the way he was taught. Personally I can't see any different cut or burned. ALOT OF EXTURE WORK IS HOW I SEE IT. For the results if there is any.
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I too read Jim Hamm on the subject but must admit to being somewhat skeptical of the explanation.
Has anyone done any tests with a batch of arrows harvested at the same time and prepared at the same time with some made with the groves others without and recorded the results?
Craig.
Jackcrafty above gave us a pretty in depth analysis.
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I too read Jim Hamm on the subject but must admit to being somewhat skeptical of the explanation.
Has anyone done any tests with a batch of arrows harvested at the same time and prepared at the same time with some made with the groves others without and recorded the results?
Craig.
Jackcrafty above gave us a pretty in depth analysis.
Jacjcrafty is one person, hardly a conclusive number of experiments, he also suggests the method used by Jim Hamm may in fact work, I personally doubt this. So the more reports the better.
Jackcrafty,
Flutes have been shown to maintain the strength of a material while removing mass, like a flute down the blade of a sword.
Have you a report that shows this, I would be interested in reading it because I doubt that flutes in a solid will do anything but decrease bending strength, however flutes and the like in hollows will increase strength.
Craig
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...I doubt that flutes in a solid will do anything but decrease bending strength, however flutes and the like in hollows will increase strength.
Your right...sort of. If were are talking about bending strength, for instance, it depends on the direction of the bending stress. Anyway, I won't argue with you. And you can look up your own report...I'm burnt out on researching engineering stuff. :P
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And you can look up your own report...I'm burnt out on researching engineering stuff.
What a pity.
Craig.
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If you put grooves in you arrows...
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...then you can tell people your arrows are really groovy. :) Jawge
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I am with you Hatch, the blood fuller on a sword, or knife, is a farce as for letting blood out, easier to pull out, etc. The flesh is going to close around the blade, or shaft. You may get some external bleeding, but not enough to be useful for trailing etc. . If the blade is pulled out, or the shaft, passes, through, or is pulled out in one way or another you will get blood, for trailing etc. As for grooves letting blood out, if it worked, it would ok for trailing, if there was not a pass through, but I doubt there would be enough for that. But as for swords, knives, etc. It doesn't matter if there is blood coming out, as it is for certain, filling up inside. :o Bleeding out or in, is irrelevant. Bleed enough, and it is fatal. ;) I am on the "lightening" side for grooving blades, as for arrows, it had to have some significance wether it had anything to to with "Mojo" for the arrow, or helping to reduce warping, or a combination thereof, I have no idea, but it took extra time to do, and the arrow was a time consuming project for the native people with primitive tools. So if someone wants to put grooves on his arrow shafts, I have no problem with that. Sort of like spitting on your fish hook. ;D ;D
Wayne
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I appreciate it, guys. :)
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Bryce,
Called some Native friends and asked about your question.....the Chippewa (Ojibwe) and the Ottawa (Odawa) did not incise their arrow shafts......but their brothers (Potowattamii) did. When I asked Jay about this he said they knew about incise carving grooves on arrows but that the Ottawa thought it made the arrow "fly funny". After spending much time on their arrows to cure, straighten, smoke and grease them, they didn't want to screw them up. He did say though that there was much competition between tribe members ( who killed the deer, who killed the enemy etc.) and they did mark their arrows with painted designs or cresting etc. they also painted designs for totems, mojo etc. but no incised carving. Jay would not say if he knew why the others did carve their shafts but the ottawa thought they was nutts for doing it. There is a distinct possibility that the incised carving was a way for the man to identify his arrows from all others....I dont know for sure, but thank God the Odawa didn't do it.
By the way the Odawa were master wood carvers and DID incise carve just about everything else like war clubs, lances, paddles, and knife handles etc. so I guess they decided that there was no good reason to hack and slash on their arrow shafts......
dont if it helps or not.
rich
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One more theory that I completely can't back up in any way shape or form: Induced turbulence. A smooth object moving through the air has laminar flow around it. Laminar air flow has more friction than turbulent air flow. Sometimes it is beneficial to induce a thin cushion of turbulence by disrupting the air flow. Airplanes used to sometimes have a ridge near the leading edge of the wing, for example. Golf balls fly much further and straighter because of the dimples. And grooves in arrows?