Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: gpw on June 20, 2007, 10:07:00 am
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Anybody out there making simple D bows , arc of a circle tillering , full width handle ... with tiny tips(reduces hand shock) and the right arrow(spine) , they shoot pretty well... so easy to make /tiller...great for the kiddies , Big kids too ...!!! ;D We've even built them slightly offset for a cleaner arrow pass...
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I've made a few. They are fun to make and shoot.
Dave
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Made a few, they shoot well. I prefer the handle to bend slightly less than a complete arc, though.
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My first bow was that style, but honestly, I'm not that fond of the D-style. I like flat bows, American long bows, Asiatic composite styles, and ancient designs. I am, however, going to buld a friend that kind of bow, 80 # with a 26.5" pull.
Dane
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just about the only style i build is a dbow.
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I have one in the works right now. Service berry, 57" ntn. I think it will be a good hunting weapon.
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I got a 52" osage sliver pretty much tillered the other day. Not perfect but bending nicely and shooting with good manners. It came in at 42lb@28", I think I'm going to sinew it. I processed some sinew for the job, now I have to sort and prep it and will glue it on tomorrow night. I really don't want to add too much weight, I think I'll have my wife shoot this one and she needs a bow that is no higher than 45lb@28" (she shoots about 27").
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I've made a few and really like their simplicity and have been amazed at how well they shoot. I like them with side nocks. I have one made with osage that is almost completed . Pat
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Hey Pat, remembering those two pieces of Osage I got at Pappy's. I think I will bring them over and try and split one for a "D" style bow. Could be an interesting project for me at your house that weekend. Could use some of your guidance. I still have the take-down Yew longbow in the works. Haven't spent too much time on it lately. How did you like the photos I sent today. Wild isn't it?
Dick
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Cool snaky stave Dick. If you decide you don't want it, remember who your buddy is! ;D Pat
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A friend of mine split it and I glued it together. I "think" it will be a challenge. :o Although not a "D" bow it is interesting.
Dick
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In the process of making one- though I have this urge to make a D-bow with working recurves, so it might not stay a D for long.
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Like Jamie, Only style I build..........bob
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I really like the style. To be honest--I've never thought they were easy to tiller though. I've only seen a handful of 'D' bows on this site with perfect tiller. With 'D' tiller + 'D' section longbows like the English Warbow, proper tiller goes beyond limbs that bend evenly and through the handle. Its a matter of keeping everything bending at the right time and to the right degree. Elliptical bows with stiff handles are easy to tiller because they have fewer variables. If a handle is stiff, it doesn't matter how thick it is. If the tips are supposed to be stiff, you just have to keep them thick enough to keep them from bending. With various historical 'D' styles, you have to have the tillering chops to control an ever-changing bend from tip to tip and that's not easy for me.
J. D. Duff
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I agree with J.D.- D- bows aren't easier to build. More limb to deal with, and the limbs go right into each other. Got to go slower too. Normal stiff riser flat-bows are just cheaters by comparison ;D
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We found that with a constant thickness from back to belly , and a pyramid limb shape , they almost tiller themselves.. a true "formula" bow... made a bunch that way ... out of boards... polyester camo net backing made all "safe"...
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I cannot help myself, but all true pyramids I made (flatbows) felt spongy at brace. All else being equal but thickness tapered bow does not. This might be of course because of way (process) I tiler them.
Jaro
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Like Jamie n Bob,Bout all i ever build too.When i do build somethin.Id like to see a pic,of the offset Dbow,if at all possible.
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I have to say a D bow is easier to tiller for me. No fades to mess with bending to much or not enough, just a simple smooth even bend all the way through. The English longbow with its narrow thick cross section and flowing arc of a circle tiller is the easiest kind of bow to build in my opinion. Its harder to screw up the tiller with a narrow deep cross section because you have to remove more material(thickness) to actually make a change. Thats why I always suggest a newbie starts out with a D style bow because the place beginners most often make mistakes is in the transition area right at the fades on a stiff handled bow.
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I have a tendency to over tiller the center of bendy bows, getting too much bend or set there. I really like the simplicity of them, though. Pat
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Unfortunately, all the offset bows have either been sold or given away..so no pics for now, but that may change , got a nice mulberry stave (cut it down on the archery range in the woods, we never miss a good tree hahaha) and a cedar log about ready,harvested from my woods... perfect for some nice longbows ... also have a laminated edge grain bamboo board (flooring I think ) that was given to try out... might make a perfect D bow, with a little thinning...
for those that are too bendy in the handle , we have wrapped on a small slat of wood onto the belly (like a handle), then linen cord wrapping... stiffens it up just a bit ... and easy to try out , longer slat for stiffer handle...I suppose you could use a piece of bone /horn , but then it would be a composite... hahaha...easier to tiller right in the first place ::)
to try offset , draw a line down the center of the stave board , and move the tips 1/8" to the left of this line , if you're right handed... opposite for leftys... when tillering , watch out for limb twist , pretty easy really and non critical for us primitive bowyers... ;D
We started the kiddies out making longbows out of rattan ...(ancient PA article) rounded sections and arc of a circle tiller easy to work for the kids and they practically tiller themselves.. Rattan /bamboo, we used to get from 1(800) 4 Bamboo...
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Ryano,
As far as being a good beginner bow--I agree with that. Handles and fades can be very tricky for beginners. But, I've rarely see 'D' bows with perfect tiller--and never from a beginner. Building a a bend-through-the-handle design with even limbs is not easy and building one that follows historical parameters is extremely difficult. An English Warbow should bend perceptibly in the handle--but not until you've reached your last three inches (or so) of draw. Let's see a beginner figure that one out. :o Elliptical tiller hides mistakes in it's ever-changing profile and with stiff tips and a stiff handle section you only have to work 2/3's of the bow. You do have to remove more wood to visibly affect the tiller but this also temporarily hides mistakes that lead to crystals and mysteriously broken bows.
I harp on this because I believe that the various English designs are really some of the most difficult to build perfectly and people always treat them like child's play. There was a reason why the English had a 5 year apprenticeship for learning to build a 'stick bow.'
J. D. Duff
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As far as building one form a board- that would be alot easier than a stiff riser, but IMO I think that trying to get a wild stave down to an even thickness throughout, tha might be a little harder. But they doseem easier because they are simpler. And they actually become easier with practice. Like the hand drill versus the bow drill. Simpler in design, and simpler in practice.
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I find them pretty quick and easy, too-another bonus, they're reliable, and shoot well. I'm not really worried about getting the seal of approval from the English, either-I just make 'em like I want 'em, don't really care how somebody on the other side of the ocean says that I have to make 'em. Those are the same folks that hunt and fish with neckties and suit coats on. ;D My D-bows are usually more Eastern Woodlands Indian style than English, anyway.
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I now defer to two quite interesting articles in ... what else ...Primitive Archer...
Volume 2 issue 3(1994) article on the D bow , by Greg Harris , and "see what's really there', by D.M. Kissinger... that should explain more ...Love that PA , what a great magazine
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How do you guys post pictures here..??? would like to show off some of my "tackle''...
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You can either use a link to a web hosting site with the (http://) code or:
When you have written your message click 'additional options' at the lower left of the text box and then choose your file from there. They need to be 200k or smaller each.
J. D. Duff
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Those are the same folks that hunt and fish with neckties and suit coats on.
Now now Hillbilly, you'll make your bows the way we tell you to. Otherwise our queen will come over there and smack your bottom.
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I think she already tried that before. ;)
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I do like the arc of a circle tiller but prefer the slight bend in the handle elliptical tiller. Jawge
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With Jawge on this one......bob
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Yup. Jawge knows the score.
Simon, I figured I'd get something stirred up ;D ;D Send miss 'Lizabeth on over here with her paddle, I'll be waiting, I'll even cook up some groundhog and poke sallet for her. :D
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JD, while I respected what you and several others or doing with these replica type bows, I don't think thats for every one. I could care less if my bows are tillered to anyone else's standards to be a "English long bow" ::) I make them to How I see fit. I see where your comming from though. :)
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I'll let her know you're waiting Hillbilly ;D Seriously though, I'm sure more ELBs are made in the US than the UK these days. I've learnt a lot about them from you guys.
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I'm not really worried about getting the seal of approval from the English, either-I just make 'em like I want 'em, don't really care how somebody on the other side of the ocean says that I have to make 'em.
Call it a Hillbilly Longbow then :D
Just funning with you mate,i have no idea how to make Bows! ;D.
Those are the same folks that hunt and fish with neckties and suit coats on
The aristocracy hunt like that and they aint English :D,well they used too untill us Plebs stopped them doing it ;D :D ;).
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;D
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Beginners rarely get anything right ... I made /broke a lot of bows before I got some real good shooters...
Saw a D kiddie bow out of hickory ... just a slat , no taper nada... little handle cushion wrapped on (more for appearance than anything... ) shot a small dowel arrow pretty well , for something so simple ... size was 36" x1"x1/4" .. now if I doubled those measurements... i should be able to reproduce those results, only bigger ... with some limb width taper , can get it so shoot better ... maybe ... ::)... Is there a formula bow lurking in these experiments ???
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Went over to the guitar shop on Wednesday (consulting job)... poked around in the woodpile and found some nice ash... 1/4"x2"x36"...layed out a simple pyramid shape D bow with offset tips,cut it out on the bandsaw... now in the process of final shaping (pointy tips) and adding side nock.. string will be tied on the other tip...almost tillered itself..
I know , it's kinda' short unless you're a bushman.. Just a test bow ... saw a table in a very old popular Mechanics giving relative dimensions for different wt. longbows... pretty close to what we want to do , but all a bit too light..
Eyed a nice superstraight piece of Wenge , but I think that's gonna' be a bass neck ...schmaybe' I can get the scrap ... Wenge seems like it "wants" to be a D bow...
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Reading an article in an old PA this AM on "offset bows"...I notice there's no mention here of same ...I made a few in the past and they worked very well...perfect for those fat handle/non center shot, D bows...some offset as much as 1/2 "...Works !!! Any of you guys tried it???
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Unintentionally, gpw, off set strings usually serve only to raise a gigantic bruise on my forearm. I usually flip the bow around and shoot it the other way. Jawge
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I do cheat and use an armguard made out of a 6" x1" strip of purpleheart ... sure saved alot of bruising in the past , and much cooler than my buffalo skin (and size) full laced armguard... We've been practicing a bent arm technique , lately where we never(well almost never) thwack our arm ....I use a rather primitive crouching in the bushes sorta' shooting stance with the bow canted about 50 degrees...unorthodox in Archery circles... but works for me ...
Starting on a bamboo and walnut D bow ...Perry reflex... 36" long x 3/4"wide ... something for shooting in the office... :o
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What a great idea, an office bow! Do you like your coworkers? :)
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Not particularly !!!! hahahaha Shooting bamboo skewers at a squirrel target sure puts the fear in them though...hahahaha It's GOOD to be a primitive guy ...hahahaha ;D
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lol. Well, being a primitive guy also means you don't have to shave every day. My wife calls me a neandrethol for that very reason.
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love those geico caveman commercials ...hahahahaha ...and a good growl , often conveys more than many wasted words ...hahahahaha
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OK, we're back !!! :o While constructing a Pyramid bow out of Bamboo flooring , I flashed on the idea of making a couple D bows from the leftovers... The density and flexibility of the Boo would seem to make it a good candidate for bows like this and with the more English D section... Thinking the usual 72" X 1.5" wide for a 45lb bow (getting old) I know it will need some backing ... I've been using 2 layers of polyester camo net on the bias , seems really strong , no failures .. yet ... and it's cheap , and looks invisible in the woods ... I know it's not exactly Primitive , so no growling please... Just using "what I got" !!
Also harvested some long crepe Myrtle branches , long and straight , about 2" dia. near the bottom ... Thinking of some really simple D bows from this ... minimum woodworking , sorta' Caveman ...ish ...
Never enough bows eh ??? hahahaha
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Gotta use what you've got. I actually prefer the practicality of the d bows, but I love em all.
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If I make a D Bow....its a Native American D Bow.....not European....
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ED, what's the difference ... Not making ELBs , Just thinking 1.5" Wide for most of the length and a little narrowing at the tips ... Tillered ever so slightly stiffer in the handle ... REAL Simple !!!
Made some thin hickory backed ERC ELBs , those tapered from the handle area to the thin tips , whole limb narrowed as it went ... Perry Reflex, long length 72" made them good accurate shooters ...
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I love long, d-tillered bows. About all I make anymore.
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I prefer stiff handled bows, but lately I've been having fun knocking out really simple D bows for others. May have to make one for myself too :).
So... simple... must... build! :D
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Would the D-Bow design, since the whole piece of wood is working, transfer more energy to the arrow? What are the effects of this? Faster and flatter flight?
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Would the D-Bow design, since the whole piece of wood is working, transfer more energy to the arrow? What are the effects of this? Faster and flatter flight?
No, I don't think so. A well tillerd flatbow with a stiff handle and bending right from the fades in a circle to stiff tips is the best angle you can set up. Maybe a flatbow with a slightly bending handle and eiffeld tips also with a circle from the handle/fades could be as fast or even faster. But you need very well spined arrows if your handle is as wide as the limbs.
The "energy-transfer-thing" is not how much of the wood is bending but rather than in which way the wood is bending. As you can see often on Compositebows, they are bending a lot from the fades to use the leftover of the limb and the siyas as a lever.
But maybe I was ill in school during the physics lessons and that is all rubbish :D
Greetz
Cord
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Built a few backed RD (with Perry reflex too)bows that were very fast ... about 66-68" long ... scary to tiller due to the higher early draw weight , but safer actually ... D bows are just FUN and feel so good in the hand... I use Long arrows , and Big feathers... tuning the point weight seems to help ... besides an unstrung D bow makes a good walking stick and something to move the snakes away... :o
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I've been building mine 1-1/4" wide at the handles, hickory baced epe, theyseem to be real fast and stoot hard. even better if ya flip the tips a little
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I have a simple one in the hot box. It seems to be drying pretty quick, I might be able to go from tree to box in about a week this way. I'll have to see how it shoots. If it does well I'll see how fancy I can make :).
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I'm in the processes of making a hickory one for target shooting. I have the stave roughed out and it has a few inches of natural reflex. Hopefully after heat treating it, it will be a sweet shooter. Going to try and get the tips to 1/4".
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Got a 60"ntn shooting yesterday from a hickory board. Followed the dimensions for the Cherokee hunting bow in TBB2. Needs some fine tuning but shot great out of the gates. I'll try to post a picture later...
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I found a piece of ipe that my uncle got for me. If I can just find/trade for a piece of hickory backing I know what I'm doing with it >:D
Oh! I took out my old 83# white Oak D bow with literally 4" of set and at 15 to 20 yards shot no worse than with my 86# white oak flatbow with 2" of set (yes, these bows are old and no I didn't really know what I was doing besides making them heavy). Hopefully at a reasonable weight where I'm not overbowed I can shoot it as accurately as a "more accurate" flatbow :).
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Harvested some long poles (branches ) from my Crepe Myrtle tree.... look like bows, got some arrow wood too .... going REAL Primitive on these...branch D bows .... Drying now ... the long wait .... Grrrrr!!!! Thinking of roughing out a few of these , just to facilitate drying ... Pics as soon as I figure how ...
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Harvested some long poles (branches ) from my Crepe Myrtle tree.... look like bows, got some arrow wood too .... going REAL Primitive on these...branch D bows .... Drying now ... the long wait .... Grrrrr!!!! Thinking of roughing out a few of these , just to facilitate drying ... Pics as soon as I figure how ...
I've gotten to the point where I don't even consider it drying until it's roughed out anyore :D
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So I started tillering my D bow today. Got it nice and even on the long string and switched to the normal string and bam! Took a ton of set! I was like, "what the heck is going on?!". Turns out it was not completely dry. Hopefully it will still work out. :-\
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Kegan , yeah I hear ya' ... takes forever just as a log...
Ryoon , perhaps you can pull the bow into a small reflex and apply a thin backing ... That might help , then let it dry completely... re tiller ...
I know this is a Primitive Forum , but having a moisture meter pretty much takes the guesswork out of drying... Before I got one , I just had dated staves around for years piled up , more aging than anything... Guess work at best...
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Lately what I've been doing is cutting a tree, removing the bark, and as soon as I get a chance I rough out the bow (hickory or white oak). After I rough it into a thin flatbow (the D bow, my thickest one, is 3/4" down to 7/16" or there about), I throw them into the hot box. My wide limbed stiff handled bows take about two weeks to cure down to a workable level, but this D bow seems to be drying a little faster. I check how light they are in the hand compared to how stiff they are floor tillering. I know that if they're wimpy and week when they go in, but about 80# against the floor, they're good to go. First time I take the drawknife and rasp to them is usually enough to know for sure. Dry and wet wood certainly have their own working characteristics.
Not properly seasoned, but fast and that's perfect for folks with as little patience as I have ;D
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I'm liking to give'em a good smoking over a smoldering fire for 4-6 hours once they are at floor tiller. Last one I did I 'tarped' a sheet over the bow to hold some smoke. I think it adds some life to the wood.
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Didn't the Indians rub the bows with Fat and then smoke em' in the top of the Tipi or lodge??? Wonder what that does???
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I'm learning that it is an important step when processing your own staves. What does it do? Some folks may say it hardens the wood resins, others may say it gives the wood back it's spirit...maybe there are other perspectives, guess it just depends on what you believe. ;) :)
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I like the sound of smoking my staves, does anyone have any idea if there is a practical (or spiritual) reason to do so and if it improves the bow in any way??
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I kinda' think it's just about the heat , but there could be some interaction with the chemicals in the smoke affecting the wood ... I dunno' , but like they say ... ten million Indians can't be all wrong ... hahaha
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Smoking leather makes it waterproof...perhaps that is what they were doing.
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Thinking now that may be a two fold thing going on ... The smoke cures the fat , making like a sealer , and the heat dries out the wood ... Where's a Primitive Chemist when you need one ... ::)