Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: blackhawk on July 13, 2011, 05:14:53 pm
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Welcome to the red hot red oak board bow cook off. ;)
This idea was born from some jesting between Josh,Matts,and I in another thread. So im posting this idea to take a poll as to all who wood be interested,and for anymore ideas as to how this wood orchestrate. (But let's try to keep it as simple as possible).
So here's the rules. Fairly simple.
1. A bow is to be made from a red oak board. Any design can be employed.
2.The bow must pull 40-45 pounds@28". Try not to go over this and if you go under you'll still be able to enter it(but it might effect the judging in speed category)
3. The bow must be unbacked. <----that's a period.
4. The bow will be judged upon shooting the same 450 grain arrow for every bow for speed. Also, the bow will be judged upon its longevity of being able to withstand at least a couple hunting seasons.
That's it. Simple and easy.
All the bows will be sent to one place for testing and judging. I have a chronograph but it wood not be fair for me to do the test shooting. I might be able to have a buddy come help me. Unless someone else wood like to do the judging then say so and let me know. Once this is figured out all the bows will be sent to this person for testing.
The winner gets all the bows where they then in return donate them to there local boy scouts,charity,local sportsmans club, or trad clubs etc...to introduce them and help them out. Where they either can use them, auction them or sell them to raise money for there organization.
When you send and ship your bow to be judged I think it wood be best to also send money for shipping them to the winner.
DEADLINE: SEPTEMBER 15. Please make sure the bow arrives BEFORE this date.
PLEASE pm me when the bow is sent so I know its coming and I can check you off,then check it off it was received as well,and I in return will pm you back when its received.
Soon I will pm those who have mentioned they are up for the challenge for conformation and a mailing address.
So that's it. Curious to see all who wood want to participate and for further ideas.
Thanks guys.....Chris
P.s. we all know red oak boards can't make a Great shooter. Lol :laugh:
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i may be wrong but is 50# a lot for a young scout to pull? just asking. ???
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the boyscouts could auction off or raffle off all the bows to raise money for their troop. :)
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They can be donated to any charity to be auctioned off,or like I said to any clubs locally that support archery, or a sportsman club for folks to try out some wood bows. Most of the older scouts wood be able to pull that back. And if there draw is shorter then they wont be pulling all of the 50lbs.
We can also drop the weight to 45 or 40@ 28" so that most of the kids could draw that back. That way the bow wood be closer to around thirty lbs at 23" draw. Thoughts?more ideas on this?
Thanks Thomas
Josh has a better suggestion for that as well. Beat me to the response..lol
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I think the bow should be unbacked... No glue in any portion of working limbs allowed. Handle risers and tip overlays are okay because they are not in a working portion of the limbs.. Cool? :)
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Oops(forgot that rule)...nice catch Josh. Yes. All unbacked. Ill re edit in my first post
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I think this is a great idea. But as some mentioned with the weight possibly being a little heavy for donation to younger potential archers, what if we set the parameters to have the bow weight fall in between 40#-45#. That way it's a lighter, possibly more appealing draw weight for any new adult archers and with the shorter draw for the youngsters it will be lighter but they can eventually work into it and it would still be hunting weight for a while. Just some thoughts I had. Definitely a great idea to try to get new participants in our sport.
~Barry
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So what you're saying is no sinew, which is allowed in BOM for selfbow. No rawhide, no snakeskins, no glue. No nothin'. :'(
Okay, I'm in. :D
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DARNIT! I just threw some linen on my pyramid limb molly, :laugh:. Oh well. If there was backings allowed I would participate. It has just got ever so difficult to find good red oak boards with no run offs that I would feel confident putting in someone elses hands unbacked, let alone somebodys kids. I would go for a couple designs if I were to try this though, one would be a short wide limbed at the center of the bow d bow, the other probably a holmegard or molly, both with thin limbs to increase speed. I don't know where I would donate if I won though. Maybe my local homeless shelter, and let all the hobos and crackheads have some fun, LOL LOL. (just kiddin just kiddin) If protective fabric backings get approved, ill chip in, :).
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August 31st might be pushing it, but I can try!
What are the judging criteria? Speed, Accuracy and Longevity? Any others?
I think it would make a great article with lots of pictures...... ;)
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I know Josh is in. Sweet. ;)
Stingray(Barry) I think it might be a good idea to drop the weight. Ill talk with Josh more and see what others have to say also. I hope you can participate. :)
ThomasH you down? :P
All right Mwirwicki(Matt) sweet man. ;D
Awe..come on toomany. You've been working lots of red oak boards lately. You'd prob kick our butts. I know mine at least. :laugh:
Matt S. Would extending it two weeks back to sept. 15 help ya out. I understand time constraint n busy schedules. Accuracy is not too important as it wood be hard to judge. Some people shoot better with different designs than others. But all the criteria listed above is how they will be judged. I also will implement the mass formula. If a bow is too low it will score lower in the durability dept.
I think it would make a great article too. Ill try to document it all with writings and photos and maybe the magazine will accept it.
And I know mine will come in last place guys,so don't be afraid to sign up cus you don't think yours will be good enough.
Thanks again to those so far willing to participate. ;D
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Really like this idea but have a couple of thoughts..like toomany said, I don't have a place for the bows to go if I were to win. In fact, I have been looking for a place to donate a few and if anyone can help....
Nother thing, limiting bow weight makes sense but what about bow length ? I am 5' 5" and some bows are a pain for me because of length. How about a 60"-62" limit ?
Lane
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The weight has been dropped to 40-45lbs@28" I edited/corrected first post.
Lane. Have you contacted local boy scouts,sportsman clubs,local fire dept that holds an auction to raise money and any of the aforementioned affiliates?
I think the length and design should be up to the builder. A 68" bow isn't too clumsy for a short target shooter just learning. A unbacked red oak board drawn to 28" should prob be longer than 60-62",especially if its going to a novice shooter. That's why I want them tillered out to 28" I know my personal bows don't go past 26" and most of them are under 60"
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I agree with blackhawk. My red oak bows are 64-66" and I really don't like to make them shorter than that unless they are bend through the handle bows.
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Hey!!! No fair. Sounds like some of you have already made some red oak board bows! :laugh: Looks like I better get started early to make time for a few re-do's! I've got my work cut out for me. This will be fun ;D
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Aww I have a couple red oak boards seasoning...I think they are ready for this.
I'm in
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No worries Matt. Im sure you'll still outdue me. I only made one red oak board bow and it was backed. It was/still is my first shooter. I was actually shooting it today. Good times and feelings whenever I pick that ole dog up.
Awesome aznboi ...looking forward to see what ya come up with.
I better get my butt in gear and hit the lumberyards to find me the fastest board out there. Im already plotting,planning,and cooking up my recipe. Anybody care to share there's?...lol ;D
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There will so not be a shelf on my bow. If I can't shoot worth crap with a shelf, they won't be able to either! :laugh:
"Awe..come on toomany. You've been working lots of red oak boards lately. You'd prob kick our butts. I know mine at least."
Ha, yeah right, thats funny. All I ever make with red oak boards are pyramid bows and modified pyramid bows. I don't even remember the last time I had to really tiller a red oak board bow, I'm lazier than heck and just let the pyramid taper tiller itself for me. lol
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You fellers are right on the length if we are pulling to 28".
blackhawk I have not put out any effort just yet, I can still hang 'em so far but thanks for the tips. Will be culling soon. Nobody needs 3 dozen red oak boards anyway ;D
Off the hand ?
Lane
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There was a red oak challenge in 2007 over on paleoplanet. Only one person sent their bow and it performed excellently (probably would have won anyways). In order to keep the challenge consistent I think the arrow shot from each bow should be 10 grains per pound. This way no bow is at an advantage or disadvantage due to draw weight. Also to be considered would be string material and shooting strategy. Bows should be warmed up with several draws before being shot and several shots should be taken with several archers and their averages being taken to be as sure as possible for consistency.
I'd definitely be interested in participating but I'd like to be sure that the contest is as fair as possible. About time I prove I can smoke you guys! >:D ;)
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Ya'll mind if a novice gets in on this
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Ken, I hope you don't mean yourself. I think everyone should do it.
I'd love to see a documentation of everyone's take on a red oak board bow. I think it would show how awesome bow making is that we can all take the same material and come up with so many different products. The competition is just a plus. :)
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...In order to keep the challenge consistent I think the arrow shot from each bow should be 10 grains per pound. This way no bow is at an advantage or disadvantage due to draw weight. Also to be considered would be string material and shooting strategy. Bows should be warmed up with several draws before being shot and several shots should be taken with several archers and their averages being taken to be as sure as possible for consistency.
I'd definitely be interested in participating but I'd like to be sure that the contest is as fair as possible. About time I prove I can smoke you guys! >:D ;)
Ryoon: No offense please but, I saw that BH wanted to keep this simple. Grains per pound and all, I hear you but, BH also mentioned 50# bows +/- 2#. Isn't that close enough? This isn't an IBO shoot; its really for fun, charity and maybe a little bit of bragging rights. If 50 bows are entered, it would take a great amount of time to warm up the bows with several draws. If I might offer a compromise. Of course its Blackhawk's gig but, how 'bout if three shots are taken from a fresh strung bow. The three shots are then averaged with the results being the final score.
Ken75: I would assume that anyone willing to cook up a red oak board bow is eligible. Some of us have made or broken several bows yet never attempted a red oak board bow....myself included.
Just sayin'
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I think there should be at least 10 shots average, to get even close to a consistency.
"In order to keep the challenge consistent I think the arrow shot from each bow should be 10 grains per pound. This way no bow is at an advantage or disadvantage due to draw weight"
I agree 100%.
"Also to be considered would be string material and shooting strategy."
I would think that they should all be shot the same by the same person, and of course the bowyer provides the string material so if you want fast flight it should be on you to fork out 40 bucks.
"I'd definitely be interested in participating but I'd like to be sure that the contest is as fair as possible. About time I prove I can smoke you guys!"
You know, I think that it would come down to design and quality of your piece of red oak wood that will make the bow that wins, period. Whether your piece should be dense as to take low set and be strong in compression, or light as to be fast and low mass, that is something I can't make my mind up about very easy, :laugh:. You can only tiller so carefully to a point, and I'm sure everyone on here is very good and tillering carefully. Only a design can effect performance enough to make a difference enough to smoke everybody else's bow. The design will decide the winner IMO.
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This should be good. I like a good Red oak board bow. What's the deadline?
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This sounds really fun, mostly because I've only ever shot one bow not made by me. That combined with the fact that I don't have a chronograph and my arrows are nothing special means I really don't have a good way to gauge how my bows perform. Mind you, durability is my prime objective so this will be fun shifting gears and focusing on performance.
I picked up a couple of boards today and will start working on a couple different designs.
I don't think there should be a restriction on length since draw weight and draw length pretty much dictate a 62" - 72" bow. If someone wants to make and ship a 80" bow that's their prerogative, though I may question their choice ;)
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Can fabric backings be allowed since the general consensus in the bowyer community is that fabric backings don't add much to performance and are generally only for protection of the back? :'( :'( :'(
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Matt, I understand but I also don't think it's would take too much to make it fair as well. I wouldn't worry about strings since that would be too much but as for warming up the bow and taking many shots I think it's the only way to get a fair reading for each bow as well as make sure the thing is durable. Even if it isn't kept to thost standards I think I'll still try and participate because it would be charitable.
Toomanyknots, It's definitely going to come down to the design. My last bow had some really narrow tips. I may push it on this one. ;D
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I just see what my bow can do compared to others...I have no chrono nor know a place near me that has one so speed to me irrelevant as I have no other bow to compare to besides the compounds my friends have.
But I hate those contraptions. Too fragile for me.
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Ryan several shots will be fired first before sending it thru a chrony to check its durability. Remember this is a judging factor as well. If your bow is only 1.5" wide or under with only say 14" of bending limb and the tiller is off then it will score lower on the durability factor as the bow wood have a higher tendency to fret after a few hundred shots. Yes the same person will do all the chrony shooting trying to maintain the exact timed pull everytime and the speed will be averaged out from three shots. And yes the same arrow will be used for all the bows. Ill try to keep it a 450 grain arrow.
Sweet Ken. Can't wait to see yours. Should be good knowing you got a couple known fast designs in your pocket.
Sorry toomany. No fabric glued on the limbs. Dropping the weight does help lessen the strain. And should be very feasible to make. Besides,that's part of the challenge and fun of this whole thing. And no one else has asked to use a backing. So I gotta say no. Sorry. I hope you'll still participate.
Hobow. Ill push the deadline (and re edit) back to September 15. That way it gives a person two months to make a bow and have it shipped BY the deadline date. Which should be plenty of time for all the folks that wanna participate. Cus it really don't take to long to brew one of these up.
Wow guys. This things really taken off. I wasn't expecting that. Looks like a couple buddies and I are gonna be testing and shooting bows ALL day. Oh boy,sounds like a lot of work..I mean FUN. ;D
In the next day or so ill pm everyone who has said they will participate for conformation and a mailing address. And to personally answer any more questions you guys might have.
Cheers guys....Chris :D
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I also encourage anyone to post pictures here of there bow,unless they wanna keep there recipe a secret then I understand as well. >:D
Ill also add that you PLEASE pm me that the bow was sent so Ill know when to be expecting it and I can check you off that it was sent,and then check you off after its received as well. And I will pm you that the bow was received.
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If we are going off of BOM rules, a soft backing (ie fabric) would be allowed.
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Thanks for clarifying that with me hobow. I've corrected it in my first post. The bow must be unbacked. <----that's a period.
Hobow. Do you as well feel the need to have to put on a soft backing? Or just correcting and clarifying the rules?
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Although I would like to be able to use a fabric backing, (just cause you can only stress kiln dried red oak so much. But with a good linen fabric backing you can get away with alot more, allowing more stressed better performing designs to be possible = funnier contest, ;D), I can see how all you guys would want it unbacked. It gives you only so much to do, so your skills would really really have to shine. It would be a really fun contest as well.
@ BLackhawk: I answered your PM, but actually I am not sure yet really if I am in or not. Is there a deadline to join in?
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Pm s have been sent out to those who said they were in or those who I thought might be or was thinking about it. If you haven't received a pm and wood like to join in on the fun then speak up please and mention it here or send me a pm,and ill get back to you asap.
Toomany and for anyone else that is questioning a joining deadline. NOPE. NONE. Only deadline is having the bow shipped and received by the deadline date. Just pm me or say im in on this thread and you'll receive the info you need from me. So if you change your mind in a couple weeks you'll still have plenty o time to get er done.
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I've actually thought for a long while that a red oak board bow contest would be great. Why? I think RO lumber is probably the "bow wood" most widely available (at least here in the US). It is cheap, so almost anyone can acquire a board or two. RO is a mediocre bow wood, so good bows REQUIRE good skills (i.e. it is less forgiving than the "better" bow woods). And finally I think it would just be awesome to see how many great bows can be made from this wood that only a few years ago was thought of as "non bow wood".
And I think we need to thank the intrepid bowyers of the 80s an 90s, especially Tim Baker and the others who helped with the TBB series, for dispelling the "yew or osage ONLY" myth. Without them I doubt I'd ever have gotten into making bows and this contest would never be happening.
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I don't see a need, but the devil is in the details >:D ;)
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I don't see a need, but the devil is in the details >:D ;)
Lol...and this is what will separate the men from the boys. Too bad im just still a toddler. :laugh:
Matt S. This should be fun if everyone walks the talk and it comes to fruition. I can't wait.
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Thinking about it again, I would say that a stiff handled, pyramid limbed, with longer than usual as well as reflexed as much as tension strength will allow levers, mollegebet kinda bow would be where the money is at. For one you need low mass on the outer most part of the bow, as low as you can get. So;
Lowest outer limb mass - check
As well as you want to stress the wood as much as you can at brace to get as much early draw weight, like having a reflexed sinew bow or just a plain reflexed bow, when braced, from being so reflexed, has had to bend alot more then a normal straight bow to be braced and therefor adds alot more early draw weight than a normal straight bow. Visual Example:
(http://i56.tinypic.com/29fchav.jpg)
So having the levers reflexed would make the limbs have to bend alot more than a straight bow, (pretty much the same priniciple/effect of bracing a reflexed bow but backwards I guess ;D), so:
Early draw weight - Check
I also think that the pyramid limbs could be fairly wide at the fades if wanted and it probably wouldn't effect performance too much as long at they tapered to 1/2" or so at the beginning of the levers. Might reduce set as well compared to making them as thin width wise. One thing that is important to realize with bows like this ( that I have just realized, I am actually only working on my first mollegebet right now, my first didn't turn out too well, lol, so don't think I have made alot of these bows or anything), but one thing I have come to realize is that the longer the none working levers are, the less the actual working limbs have to bend/work, so the longer the none working levers are = the less stressed the working limbs are. So if you combine that knowledge with the early draw weight increase of reflexed the levers as much as possible, then you can max out the early draw weight at brace by making the working limbs short enough and the levers reflexed enough to be stressed to the max, and then get the draw you want and keep the stress down on the bow during draw by making the levers long enough to not brake the working limbs during draw? Also, I do know that string bridges can really send an arrow flying, as well as make early draw weight ridiculous if the lever angle is enough that the bow basically becomes a 40" bow at brace and then the string lifts off to become a 65" bow or so at full draw, making it smooth at full draw but sending the arrow flying with the early draw weight of a 40" bow braced to 6". I have read (somewhere) that the manchu bows with their string bridges and crazy angled siyahs had the highest force draw curve.
...so,... what do you guys think?
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Toomanyknots
Smells like your cooking up a good recipe. I like it. I wanna see it done. Pleeeeease change your mind. At least I got ya thinking about design in bows ;)
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I might blackhawk, sure was a fun idea ya had!
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Man I wish I could participate in this since most of my bows are from red oak and I can always get it preform real well... Only problem is I don't have the money to ship a bow anywhere, especially not twice... :( anyways sounds like a great idea And a real fun one...
Also I might have missed this but are the bows straight stave designs only? Or are recorded and reflex allowed?? Just wondering... Can't wait to see the results...
Jon
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You can recurve,reflex,deflex....whatever you want. As long as it adheres to being unbacked on the limbs. Ill send you a pm and maybe we can work the money thing out seeing how your a young strapping lad.
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im in, i have made several red oak bows , my last was a molle that i gave away at cloverdale that was crazy fast. this sounds fun.
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blackhawk I got your pm and yessir I am in.
I should not be surprised ( but I am ) at the competitive nature of our little group. But one thing I have not seen mentioned except in passing is the manly test of longevity. How exactly is this to be determined and does it ( as it should ) carry the same weight as a bow speed test? I mean anybody can build a flash in the pan wizz bang. At the end of two years shouldn't the surviving bows, mine included, be speed tested again ?
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longevity is a thing that alas we cannot test too easily. As everyone in the contest should know, the bows are to be donated to help raise money for the winner's archery club, a local boyscouts group, or any other organization the winner sees fit. So everyone should make a concientous effort to build the best bow they possibly can because some of these bows will eventually end up in the hands of newbs... and if I know one thing it's this... if the first time someone picks up a wooden bow and draws it to their cheek and it breaks, I bet you that would be the last wooden bow they ever pick up... ever. The purpose of this friendly contest is to promote trad/primitive archery not get people to shy away from it so please everyone try and make a durable bow for these folks, okay? The purpose of this contest is not to build a 300fps screamer that will explode after 3 arrows, more of a balance between durability and speed... a hunt-worthy bow I guess is what I am trying to say. :)
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I might join this if I can find some red oak boards to play with >:D normally all I can find is white oak
--Mark R.
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Lane to add on to testing durability is that ill weigh each bow and calculate its projected mass. If it comes in more than two ozs lighter than it should be then that tells me that its durability might be jeopardized. Also the judges and I have enough gathered knowledge to be able to tell if a bow is underbuilt by its dimensions and if its not very dense wood,and if the builder built a correct dimension for red oak boards and his design. Also if a bows tiller is off it will be judged lower on durability. Or if the bow pulls and draws unbalanced in the hand. Or if I shoot it and it shakes the fillings out of my molars. All these are indications of an inferior bow to one that has the less of all these factors.
Make sense? Ill pm ya after this short rant.
Peshikthe: pm sent
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Just saw this and if I thought I could make that deadline I would say I was in for sure, but my wife has been getting on to me for putting other things on hold already while I work on stuff for things on here. I really just need to learn how not to waste time sleeping and that would solve all my not enough time problems.
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Just saw this and if I thought I could make that deadline I would say I was in for sure, but my wife has been getting on to me for putting other things on hold already while I work on stuff for things on here. I really just need to learn how not to waste time sleeping and that would solve all my not enough time problems.
Waste time sleeping? LOL. ;D
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Michael...most pros can knock a RO bow in a day easy. Not that I can but not too much longer if I really apply myself. Im gonna take me sweet time since I think there's plenty of time to get one done in two months.
Well guys..picked up the winning board today...lol :laugh:
Its a 1x3 ten foot long board to start with. Its hard to tell as you can only see the grain half way down. But its a subtle straight S front profile grain. Of yeah...a slight character RO board bow. Just follow that subtle S grain baby and lay the string where it'll track down the handle. Wish I could've gotten a better pic. It doesn't show it to well and its deceiving cus that's ten foot long. Fat heavy rings though.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/2011-07-14_15-23-49_994.jpg)
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"longevity is a thing that alas we cannot test too easily. As everyone in the contest should know, the bows are to be donated to help raise money for the winner's archery club, a local boyscouts group, or any other organization the winner sees fit. So everyone should make a concientous effort to build the best bow they possibly can because some of these bows will eventually end up in the hands of newbs... and if I know one thing it's this... if the first time someone picks up a wooden bow and draws it to their cheek and it breaks, I bet you that would be the last wooden bow they ever pick up... ever. The purpose of this friendly contest is to promote trad/primitive archery not get people to shy away from it so please everyone try and make a durable bow for these folks, okay? The purpose of this contest is not to build a 300fps screamer that will explode after 3 arrows, more of a balance between durability and speed... a hunt-worthy bow I guess is what I am trying to say."
Aww, come on, now your taking all the fun out of it, >:D >:D >:D. As I am sure you are directing this towards my previous post, I will just reply. I really wouldn't purposely design a bow that would brake, in fact I would most definitely want to do the opposite. I disagree with you (respectfully) that you have to settle for sub par with unbacked 45# - 50# @ 28" red oak being the only limit. I believe that very good bowyers frequent this forum, and I am sure one of them can figure out a way to have their cake and eat it too.
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I picked up my Red Oak board today! Hooray!
Blackhawk: There were several posts to this challenge thread. Did you (we) settle on the final list of rules/parameters? If so, can you list them in one post for all to see. Just don't want anyone to get DQ'd for something unnoticed.
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Toomanyknots, You have some good ideas but there are some problems. Pyramid limbs might take too much near handle set resulting in a lot of tip deflection. A reflexes Molly design will not only put a lot of strain on the inner limbs but will also be laterally unstable. In order to keep stability manageable, levers will be kept too wide and are usually made to deep for optimal speed which the extra energy storage will not be able to overcome. Also, often times with the Molly design the levers are far too massive. A slight transition to very narrow tips is more optimal and easier to tiller than the sharp transition of the Molly. A long flat bow with very narrow tips and a maybe a bit of reflex will be what I go for. Also I think you may be making a false correlation between strain and speed. A well designed fast bow should be no more stressed than a slow one.
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Bow is finished fellers. Took about 15 minutes after all it is a "board " bow.
Yep, just gotta shoot her in some. Do I get any points for finishing first? Huh? Do I?
Lane
UNBRACED(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h418/EarlLane/007-2.jpg)
BRACED
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h418/EarlLane/005-5.jpg)
FULL DRAW
(http://i1108.photobucket.com/albums/h418/EarlLane/008-3.jpg)
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Hahahaha :laugh: LMAO. Good one Lane. Nice try.
Matt. The rules are all in my first original post and are now edited in stone.
Alright. So far I have 8 guys for sure not including me. And 4 in question. Id like to see at least a for sure dozen. Come on guys. Step up to the plate. How bout some of you ole timers who have been doing this for 30+ years,or are you scared some of us young cocky guns are gonna smoke ya :laugh:
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"longevity is a thing that alas we cannot test too easily. As everyone in the contest should know, the bows are to be donated to help raise money for the winner's archery club, a local boyscouts group, or any other organization the winner sees fit. So everyone should make a concientous effort to build the best bow they possibly can because some of these bows will eventually end up in the hands of newbs... and if I know one thing it's this... if the first time someone picks up a wooden bow and draws it to their cheek and it breaks, I bet you that would be the last wooden bow they ever pick up... ever. The purpose of this friendly contest is to promote trad/primitive archery not get people to shy away from it so please everyone try and make a durable bow for these folks, okay? The purpose of this contest is not to build a 300fps screamer that will explode after 3 arrows, more of a balance between durability and speed... a hunt-worthy bow I guess is what I am trying to say."
Aww, come on, now your taking all the fun out of it, >:D >:D >:D. As I am sure you are directing this towards my previous post, I will just reply. I really wouldn't purposely design a bow that would brake, in fact I would most definitely want to do the opposite. I disagree with you (respectfully) that you have to settle for sub par with unbacked 45# - 50# @ 28" red oak being the only limit. I believe that very good bowyers frequent this forum, and I am sure one of them can figure out a way to have their cake and eat it too.
no that was not a response directed to your previous post more of a general rule everyone needs to follow. Flight bows built mainly to break speed records rarely survive a few shots when shot with a 5 gpp arrow and I just wanted to make it clear that these bows are supposed to be built to be durable enough to be shot at least two hunting seasons as they will probably fall into the hands of a newbie. So rule of thumb build a bow that will be a good balance between durability and speed. I never said anything about having to build a "sub par" bow. You sir are putting words in my mouth that I did not say.
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"Toomanyknots, You have some good ideas but there are some problems. Pyramid limbs might take too much near handle set resulting in a lot of tip deflection."
Pyramid limbs are widest at the handle and therefor should take no set at all near handle, all set taken typically is outer limb. If you are getting set near the handle with pyramid bows, maybe you are having the same problem I have been having, which is due to just gluing a riser on a consistent thickness board. The fix is a 1 1/2" thickness fade right off the handle like it was a normal american longbow, at least 1 1/2" right off the handle, to ensure this does not happen as there is alot of stress right off the handle. With a thickness fade there should be no way set be should occurring right off the handle.
"A reflexed Molly design will not only put a lot of strain on the inner limbs but will also be laterally unstable."
The limbs should store as much energy as design and material will allow. Stability is one of the responsibilities of the craftsman (that being alignment) and has been proven to be more than possible with reflexed non working outer limbs billions of times the world over.
"I think you may be making a false correlation between strain and speed."
I think you are taking the "energy stored" I am referring to and calling it "strain". ::) The more energy stored in the limbs at brace = the more early draw weight. Strain, if you mean physical strain on the belly, compression wise, can be dealt with by:
Making limbs wider and thinner to get same weight but less belly stress (with a pyramid design I don't think this is that bad of an option)
Making bow's dimensions overall longer
Heat treating belly
Selecting the most dense compression strong piece of red oak? lol
Making levers longer, so as to make the working limbs work less when the bow is drawn as I was talkin bout in my previous post...
...thats all I can think of right now.
As for stability, I am sure you have never shot a grozer csaba or nomad bow, as per your account every bow that they sell would be unstable. As well as every hunnic/magyar bow every made. As well as many reflex deflexes. I would think that stability has everything to do with alignment and should be no big issue when construction is taken seriously.
"In order to keep stability manageable, levers will be kept too wide and are usually made to deep for optimal speed which the extra energy storage will not be able to overcome."
I don't understand, they are deep to be strong so as not to bend, strength is in thickness not width, so siyahs/levers can be less mass than a working limb by being deep and thin, the deep thickness allowing enough strength to remove mass on the sides on the levers/siyahs. Imagine trying to make the lever rigid and non working by adding width instead of thickness. It would take alot more mass. This is what makes mollegebets and holmegards so much faster as they have less mass on the outer limbs.
"no that was not a response directed to your previous post more of a general rule everyone needs to follow. Flight bows built mainly to break speed records rarely survive a few shots when shot with a 5 gpp arrow and I just wanted to make it clear that these bows are supposed to be built to be durable enough to be shot at least two hunting seasons as they will probably fall into the hands of a newbie. So rule of thumb build a bow that will be a good balance between durability and speed. I never said anything about having to build a "sub par" bow. You sir are putting words in my mouth that I did not say."
Totally didn't mean to, sorry if it came out that way. Point taken. Forgive me if I get a little worked up about bow makin... ;D
@ Johnson: lol.
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Toomanyknots, With regards to taking near handle set with a pyramid bow I was simply saying it can be a problem with the design sine there's so much more bending near the handle.
With regards to inner limbs being less stressed with levers, that is incorrect. This is why they need to be made so much wider, in order to
Have enough wood to do the work without taking more set.
When talking about recurved stiff tips it is indeed possible to do but stability is an unavoidable issue. For optimal speed the limbs will have to be narrowed considerably losing Lateral stability. It has been done plenty of times with, for example, Chinese composite bows. But I guarantee that the sayas on those bows are far too massive for optimal speed but need to be so in order to be stable. Good speed in those bows comes from the higher energy storage and is only enough to surpass the excess mass in the finest made bows of those styles.
I don't want to discourage you from doing your design and I may very well be wrong. Simply discussing what I believe to be how such a design would play out. I'll be going for something a bit more simple. :)
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Dang boys. Lots of good discussion going on here. Woo-wee its getting hot in this thread >:D
Keep it going. As for me I got lay out lines to draw and don't have time to sit around the coffee table to talk :laugh:
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picked out my boards today... i m going to build 2 and send the best and most durable. i usually build these 2 at a time anyhow... i got some good ideas brewing gonna try a new design i haven't tried yet on one of them. with me luck guys! toomanyknots sorry for the misunderstanding and good luck with your design! :)
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Ok, here we go again..
"Toomanyknots, With regards to taking near handle set with a pyramid bow I was simply saying it can be a problem with the design since there's so much more bending near the handle."
A pyramid bow is a very low set design all around when done correctly. I have experienced what you said, set near the handle while using boards of a consistent thickness up to the handle, but with a slight thickness fade this is avoided. A pyramid limb distributes stress as evenly as a bow limb can. A pyramid limb bow typically will never take set near the handle. A pyramid limbed design is typically very low set whether you believe me or not.
"With regards to inner limbs being less stressed with levers, that is incorrect. This is why they need to be made so much wider, in order to
Have enough wood to do the work without taking more set."
For one I didn't say "inner limbs were less stressed with levers", I explained how they could be by making the levers longer. This is refering to during the draw. Do you understand what I am saying ryoon? The longer you make the levers, the less the working limbs have to work during draw to reach the same draw length, do you understand that? This is not incorrect. That is what I am saying.
"When talking about recurved stiff tips it is indeed possible to do but stability is an unavoidable issue. For optimal speed the limbs will have to be narrowed considerably losing Lateral stability. It has been done plenty of times with, for example, Chinese composite bows. But I guarantee that the sayas on those bows are far too massive for optimal speed but need to be so in order to be stable. Good speed in those bows comes from the higher energy storage and is only enough to surpass the excess mass in the finest made bows of those styles."
Chinese manchu bows did have heavy siyahs, but early draw weight (not soley by reflex, mostly by the manchu design with the string laying on the string bridges at brace and lifting off at draw, the siyahs serving the same roll as the little pulleys on compound bows nowadays) mostly even things out. I probably think the siyahs were for smooth draw and not speed. (Now chinese yaun bows might be a whole nother story). Admittedly I am not that good at getting highly reflexed siyahs or levers aligned, (In fact I hate hate hate it, :laugh:) but I do see alot of bows like this on this forum, and go check out the atarn forum if ya want some proof. You will see alot of people have no problem with alignment/stability with highly reflexed siyahs. So it obviously can be done. Although clearly it is an issue that has to be dealt with with reflexed levers, and though you are very right about that, I believe that the extra stored energy that will result from reflexed levers is worth the time it takes to craft a bow with such characteristics that is stable. And that will make a better shooting bow. And this is a competition. So why wouldn't you want to take the time to make the best bow you can? Anyway, thats what makes this fun for me! ;D
"I don't want to discourage you from doing your design and I may very well be wrong. Simply discussing what I believe to be how such a design would play out. I'll be going for something a bit more simple."
I don't believe it is my design, as I was basically just openly discussing my thoughts on what would make the best performing unbacked red oak bow. I don't know if ill participate, (yet) as I would feel like crap if my bow broke in a kids hands. I am kinda on the edge of deciding if I will or not, I might give er a try yet... So you think that a narrow tipped flatbow is the ticket eh?
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im done where do we send them >:D
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im done where do we send them >:D
:o :o :o
Holy smokes ken. Did u build it and finish seal it all in one day? :o
Pm sent Ken
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"im done where do we send them"
"Holy smokes ken. Did u build it and finish seal it all in one day?"
Sweet buh jesus I know lol
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Just saw this and if I thought I could make that deadline I would say I was in for sure, but my wife has been getting on to me for putting other things on hold already while I work on stuff for things on here. I really just need to learn how not to waste time sleeping and that would solve all my not enough time problems.
Waste time sleeping? LOL. ;D
Ok you've talked me into it...I'm in.
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im done where do we send them >:D
I thought I was doing well just getting my board, today. Holy quacamole Batman! I better get busy!
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Toomanyknots, I see what you're saying about increasing lever length to decrease inner limb stress. I can't say I've seen too many bows with reflexed siyahs on here (although robustus did just display a beautiful example) but I think it can be done. I just have yet to see anyone present one where the siyah's are narrow enough to be efficient. Sure they will store more energy but the question is if that extra stored energy can overcome the excess mass it takes in the outer limbs for stability and stiffness.
I do think a narrow tipped flatbow is the ticket. It's been proven over and over again. I think there are possibilities for faster designs but for this competition I'll stick with something simple. Also if your bow is well designed you should have no fear of it ever breaking. There's no need to sacrifice durability for speed.
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We could just make some bows and see who comes out on top instead of a verbal debate.
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Michael C. Pm sent
@Toomanyknots....dude you've expended way too many brain cells to not give her a go. Ill send you a pm with the shipping address.
So far the for sure list is up to ten now ;D(not including me) THERE'S ROOM FOR MORE GUYS ;)
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We could just make some bows and see who comes out on top instead of a verbal debate.
LOL :D
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"We could just make some bows and see who comes out on top instead of a verbal debate."
Yeah, well I'm sure anybody would win a debate against me if it came down to that, :laugh:
"Toomanyknots, I see what you're saying about increasing lever length to decrease inner limb stress. I can't say I've seen too many bows with reflexed siyahs on here (although robustus did just display a beautiful example) but I think it can be done. I just have yet to see anyone present one where the siyah's are narrow enough to be efficient. Sure they will store more energy but the question is if that extra stored energy can overcome the excess mass it takes in the outer limbs for stability and stiffness.
I do think a narrow tipped flatbow is the ticket. It's been proven over and over again. I think there are possibilities for faster designs but for this competition I'll stick with something simple. Also if your bow is well designed you should have no fear of it ever breaking. There's no need to sacrifice durability for speed. "
Your probably right. I've seen tons of your bows, I'm sure you could nail this little contest.
"Also if your bow is well designed you should have no fear of it ever breaking. There's no need to sacrifice durability for speed."
I totally agree. I'm not saying I could, but I totally agree.
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just curious is it still a self bow if its spliced
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"just curious is it still a self bow if its spliced"
No ones said anything to me against using siyahs yet. I sure as heck wasn't gonna steam bend em, lol!
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Hey, by the way, I probably wouldn't write the best one myself, but does anybody think that one of the guys on here should write up a little "guide you using and caring for a selfbow" pdf or something? Something the winner can print out some copies at the library and send with the bows? Because I can so see the troop leader or whoever having the kids just abuse the crap outta these unbacked red oak bows, leavin em strung all the time, bracing em 7 different ways of wrong, dry shooting, exc exc... just saying. These kids, if they have had experience with archery tackle in some program or whatever, I almost 100% guarantee that it is with youth compound bows and have no idea about how to use a selfbow.
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Ill accept a spliced handle as long as its a stiff handle. Don't know why you wood wanna make it more work and harder for yourself. And if its a poor splicing it will score lower on the durability scale.
The siyahs.....eh.....im leaning to saying no. Even tho its not working,it is part of a working limb. Toomanyknots. Why not make the same type of design you just made,but make the dimensional adjustments to it? If those siyahs twist and torque and have poor lateral stability then its gonna score low on the durability factor.
Ill type n print up an instructional sheet on proper selfbow care to send with my bow to the winner. Cu's I know I ain't winning
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Got mine cut out to just outside of the lines. Im not scared to show mine,and let folks see what im building. No secrets here. :P
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/2011-07-16_17-35-57_772.jpg)
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Hey, by the way, I probably wouldn't write the best one myself, but does anybody think that one of the guys on here should write up a little "guide you using and caring for a selfbow" pdf or something? Something the winner can print out some copies at the library and send with the bows? Because I can so see the troop leader or whoever having the kids just abuse the crap outta these unbacked red oak bows, leavin em strung all the time, bracing em 7 different ways of wrong, dry shooting, exc exc... just saying. These kids, if they have had experience with archery tackle in some program or whatever, I almost 100% guarantee that it is with youth compound bows and have no idea about how to use a selfbow.
I have something like that but it's on my work computer. I'll try and post it Monday.
I just finished a red oak bow from a 1x2x6 board that I'm REALLY liking. It's a bit shorter than I usually make at 62" tip-to-tip but it came out great. About 42# @ 28". It's sort of a stretched Mollegabet with a slightly working handle and long, semi-working lever fades. Seems to spit the arrows out with authority, now I just need to do some distance shooting (how I gauge my bows w/o a chronograph).
I think I'll use the same design just a bit longer and slightly more working limb taper for this contest.
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Matt, I have a chrono if you need to test it, Richmond is not that far away. I'm off work all week with nothing much to do anyway but play with bows if you want to drive over. Bring all of your bows for that matter, I have one or two myself.
gmc
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hey guys, wanted to say that this is a great idea! and im in :D i spent a good hour at the lumber store today trackin down a nice board for the job.
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Awesome nativenoobowyer. Pm sent. Thanks for jumping in the pool.
So far including me the list of for sures is up to 11 now,and still two in question. :)
Still got room for more,and its not too late to jump in the pool,and plenty of time still before the deadline. ;)
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Got the front profile cleaned up to my lines with a rasp later last night. She's now ready to start floor tillering. Then after I get to the short string to see my string tracking I can start fine tuning that profile. Right now its 2" out of the fades and 5/8" at the tips and 72" overall length.
:P
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x436/blackhawk28/2011-07-17_11-26-31_796.jpg)
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That's lookin good so far! Looks very similar to that hickory bow that Ryoon recently posted. I'm itchin to try a bow of that design myself (with the Eiffel tower taper).
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"If those siyahs twist and torque and have poor lateral stability then its gonna score low on the durability factor."
If reflexed siyahs on a bow twist (siyahs around 4" or more, with 3" little mini siyahs sometimes you can get away with a bit of twist if there is a wide string bridge for the string to land on) just a smudge the string will pop off half way to full draw and it won't even be a bow at all. If reflexed siyahs twist at all then the bow will not shoot and if there are no string bridges to the hold the string in place, like if the siyahs are no contact siyahs, chances are it won't even stay braced or will brake the siyahs at brace. So I find your statement a bit confusing... With highly reflexed siyahs it is perfect or nothing. At least for me anyway, as I only make wooden bows with siyahs, if it was a hornbow I guess like robustus said (I think) you can heat bend or just work the bow into alignment. I haven't been able to do that with wooden bows as that is all I make. :- Cool lookin bow btw though! Looks like a quick shooter. How thick is it?
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Thanks cameroo...its hard to beat that design if properly executed. <-----I hope I can pull it off. I know Ryoon is making almost the same thing. So I better do reeeeal good to outdue his. Hahaha...that's a joke. Im sure he'll beat me. Not sure if I can do that.
Toomanyknots....I was thinking of some monster long siyahs that I've seen you put on bows before,and that's what I was imagining. How about we make a compromise. Ill let you(only you) put glued on siyahs UNDER 4" long....IF you say you can commit to building and sending a bow For judging. ;) but good luck getting that to outperform less weighted tipped bows. DEAL? ::)
Right now my board is still full board thickness.
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Like I said I probably will not participate. Also, there would be very little much benefit from 4" siyahs so why would I do that. Thats like a molly with 4" levers. The benefit from the reflex of said siyahs is early draw weight caused by the limbs storing more energy at the same brace than a bow that had a flat profile, which would up performance of said bow. I enjoyed discussing bow performance/how stuff works on this thread, but I guess it's time for me to stop chiming in and let you guys have fun. :laugh:
"but good luck getting that to outperform less weighted tipped bows."
Ok, one more thing, I have a problem with the general consensus that is so obviously wrong here in this thread that a siyah with 1000 times less mass than a working limb would somehow make a slower bow. I think we need to just use common sense to see the truth. Here are two bow profiles, one a flatbow bow, one a bow with non working levers, each the same dimensions mid-limb, but one bow transitions out from a working limb to a lever:
(http://i51.tinypic.com/2ntk593.jpg)
Come on now, we all know wood is stronger in depth/thickness about 8 times more than it is in width. This means you can make a take a very strong piece of wood if it is deep, and reduce the width dramatically, resulting in a very strong piece of wood that is not even that much wood (if only stressed against the thickness of course). There is no way a bow with thin non working levers would have more outer mass or could be out performed by a bow with wide working limbs. Maybe a d section. It just doen't add up as there is just so much more wood to move on the bow with all working limb than the one with levers. It makes absolutely no sense why a bow with 1000 times more outer limb mass would ever out perform a bow with 1000 times less outer limb mass. ??? ??? ??? For example, the static recurve I use right now has 6" siyahs that are 3/4" deep and 3/8" wide. The bow pulls 60# at 28" and has been shot all the time for about a year, maybe more. The siyahs are very strong and I am sure would hold 80# or even more with ease. Now, if I were to take the siyahs, and turn them to the side and try to use them as working limbs, making them 3/4" wide and maybe 3/8" thick, they would brake. It fact if I could change around the mass in those siyahs to get enough wood to make the outer 6" of working limb on that bow there just wouldn't be enough and they would brake, as it is a pyramid bow and about 3/8" thick. The only way would be to make a non bending stiff deep limb section. It is just obvious it takes less mass to make a deep nonbending section verses a working limb. And it should be accepted in this thread that less outer mass makes a better shooting bow.
Ok, with that, I retire from this thread, and can't wait to see some of the fire spittin bows that this contest is bound to produce.
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Blackhawk, you give me too much credit. If you keep talking like that I'm going to get embarrassed in this contest.
Toomanyknots, we all understand that narrow and deep outerlimbs have less mass and will shoot faster. But what we're saying is that when reflexed, such as siyah's, they must have more mass to be laterally stable. Just for example the tips you just explained are too heavy. My last bow had tips that were 1/4" wide by 1/2" deep. Stiff tips can be much more narrow than most people make them. It should almost have a slight bend to make sure thickness is as small as possible.
Getting back from MOJam today. Will be on the lookout for a nice board tomorrow.
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Glued on my my handle riser for the board bow. Not it's tiller time!
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Finished one except for dressing up but it came in less than 40#. Oh well at least I got a backup if I need it. Sweet shooter too.
Lane
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"Toomanyknots, we all understand that narrow and deep outerlimbs have less mass and will shoot faster."
Umm, I'm pretty sure that yall were trying ta saying that they will shoot slower than a working limbed flatbow... ...which is ridiculous... from the siyahs somehow having more outer mass (wood) than a working limb bow, ... ...which is also ridiculous...
"Just for example the tips you just explained are too heavy. My last bow had tips that were 1/4" wide by 1/2" deep"
"sigh", They were most obviously not tips of a bow, but siyah measurements that go the entire length of the siyah, forgive me if I don't like the look of a siyah that comes to a point. Please re-read my post.
"what we're saying is that when reflexed, such as siyah's, they must have more mass to be laterally stable."
No, they must not. What do you mean more mass? Like wider? Or wider at the base/mating area? I make my siyahs from no thicker than 1/2" plain saw (close to) red oak. Never any thicker than that. And I taper it from 1/2" wide to about 3/8" for the entire length after it fades from the base. Always. And I make laterally stable static recurves. Good luck on the bow.
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Toomanyknots, thank you. Even if they were siyah's or tips it's still too massive. Adam Karpowicz, an expert on Asiatic composite bows, had stated that the primary reason composite bows rarely shoot faster than well made wood bows is because there is too much mass in the siyah's; mass needed for stability. I have no doubt that you can make a laterally stable bow with siyah's but I have yet to see one with siyahs that have less mass than a stiff tipped mantra bow. Even if you don't compete I'd like to see the bow you speak of. I'll be sure to post mine for everyone's criticism.
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Thanks for the updates Matt and Lane. Bummer ya came in underweight Lane. Next ones always better anyways....right? ;) :D
Sorry to hear ya wont be participating toomanyknots after all that coffee table talk on designs. Talk is only talk. If you think your design is faster and more durable than a Tim Baker style mantra bow,then why not prove it? (That oughta get ya riled up again) ;)
Hope ya find a fast board Ryoon. I prob don't even need to ask if ya had fun at Mojam either. And im just putting some pressure on ya,so you can focus that energy into a smoking awesome board bow bro.
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i think i am going to give this a go.i started one tonight.i am no bowyer.i am just getting started.i have made one red oak bow for my woman.it is 21#at26".if this bow turns out this week,i will send for the address.i know that i am not going to win,but i just want to donate one to charity.i think this is a good idea to promote archery in youngsters.thanks guys,steve
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Seabass...pm sent. Hope you can make it :) thanks for trying.
All experience levels are accepted,whether you've made one or too many to count
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"If you think your design is faster and more durable than a Tim Baker style mantra bow,then why not prove it?"
As I recall I wasn't allowed to do anything except make a flatbow. Like you said, you won't allow siyahs or recurves of any kind, as well as protective fabric backings, so the only options to play around with is low stress flatbow designs, as no one would want to make a high stressed design and have it blow up in a kids face. So I am definitely out. I was just bringing up design features that would add performace to a bow, I never said what design I would personally make. I do like the aspect of giving em away though, I bet a group boys home or something like that would be better than the boy scouts. I grew up in one, and we would of shot the crap out of some wood bows all the time. We were happy to have anything to do. :laugh:
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Toomanyknots,
How about making a red oak board bow with a protective backing of any kind, with as long of siyahs you want and send it to be tested and compared to molly's,holmys,and american flatbow designs. Just make sure its in the same poundage and draw length range. But I wont allow it to be entered into the contest,but if you do then we can waste all this talk and prove with real action if this type of design will out perform the others listed. Talk is cheap until the arrows fly my brother. ;)
Im now curious to see if your siyahs wood be worth the effort of making or not. It wood be a shame to find out its slower,not as durable,and tougher to string and shoot. Hehehehehe :laugh:<--------im smack talking. Don't take me too serious please ;)
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I think most of us are going to be making a similar design because the long, wide limb narrow tip is just a logical design for a fast bow and I think that's an easy design to make a fairly durable bow from. I know mine is going to be about 68 - 72 t2t and about 1.5 to 2" wide and tiny outer limbs. At least that's what my plan is now until I end up breaking a few. All I've made from oak at this point is a backed bow too, so this is fairly experimental to me. Should be fun and possibly frustrating, but I'll know a bit more about what I'm doing after this contest is over I hope :)
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I don't really think there is an argument going on here, or if there is I sure don't know what it is, as I am pretty sure I just keep correcting invalid statements and that seems to be the gist of it. I just woke up ten minutes ago I don't know what the heck I am arguing about anymore regarding siyahs, but I never said I personally could make a bow that would whip all your butts if it was aloud to have siyahs, all I did was try to explain the advantages of low outer mass and early draw weight that siyahs do in fact give, you know, with the little mspaint pic, just tryin to get it out there,... it's not the only way to gain early draw weight but with an unbacked bow you either have to steam your stave into reflex and tiller very carefully (on weak compression red oak wood at that) or add recurve/reflexed siyahs, thats about it I guess. I mean I can't think right now of anyway to add early draw weight to an unbacked red oak bow, can you? And early draw weight and low mass are really probably the only things that are gonna come down to it as it is only red oak flatbows, ... I am assuming d section is not allowed as well,...
"Im now curious to see if your siyahs wood be worth the effort of making or not."
Well they would if they lower outer limb mass, up the early draw weight, and lower stack as an added plus, now wouldn't they? O:) ... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
"then we can waste all this talk and prove with real action if this type of design will out perform the others listed."
Of course a bow with:
-lower outer mass
-more early draw weight
-would shoot better than than a bow with more outer mass and less early draw weight. Durr. Why is it the general consensus in this thread that a mollegebet bow is a very fast shooting good performance bow, but a mollegebet bow with the levers a bit reflexed is a horrible performing design. It's this stuff thats driving me crazy. If I can get the time I will make a normal little pyramid kids bow for a kid, as it was a great idea to do this, but in regards to making a bow that would not even be allowed in the contest, seems almost insulting.
"and send it to be tested and compared to molly's,holmys,and american flatbow designs."
Why wouldn't you allow recurves? Why wouldn't you allow all designs, not just the ones you favor or like to make? I really didn't know what bow I would make if I ended up finding a good board, and I had planned to just have fun with it, but I did not know that I would be designated to make a bow with siyahs, and one that would not even be allowed in the contest at that. You guys have fun. I'm tired of over running this thread, which looks to be a very cool thread with lots of cool flatbows, so I'm done. You and ryoon are really cool people, please don't take no bow talk from me as hostel or personal or nothing, as it most definitely is not. This was a very noble and plain cool idea yall had too. But I would suggest clarifying your rules a bit, I guess I missed the part of no recurve.
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If I had a good piece of red oak I would particiapate I will keep an eye out for one and keep you guys updated
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I thought we were allowed to steam/heat bend in recurves? ??? when did that become a rule?
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Toomanyknots....there's def no arguing going on here. Just a lot of good design discussion. Which is good and healthy,and prob benefits some folks by reading. I never said recurves wasn't allowed,as long as its a unbacked selfbow. Gluing on siyahs makes it a composite. FYI half my bows are either recurved or tips flipped some. I really don't favor any style. I like em all.
Bownut I hope you can find a board to play with. If you do just say on the thread im in or send me a pm and ill pm you either way.
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Josh...it never changed. Like I said,you can make it reflex,deflex,recurved,and all of the aforementioned as long as its unbacked and no glued on siyahs as this makes it a composite IMHO.
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create a contest - check
tell people the rules - check
watch as people who say that can't enter tell everyone else how they would make a bow and how it would be better - check
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D >:D >:D >:D
see if that gets them to enter :)
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I didn't know that steamed in recurves were allowed, I thought since you told me I couldn't have glued on recurves than that meant no recurves period.
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Toomanyknots...Ahhh(sigh)....so do I have now in such a tizzy that you'll make n send one. And I stated ealrier on that was ok. Ya must've missed it. ;) :laugh: we got you all riled up brother :laugh:
I hope so,cus you def blew a lot of air thru your lips to not too ;)
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I'm gonna make two. One 70" long and just a straight taper from 1.25" to 1/2" near the nocks then 1/4" nocks.
The other will be a bend through the handle mollegabet...I've made one before and liked the performance and low shock
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Sweeeet aznboi.....feel free to send both. I never made a rule saying you could only make and send one.
Make and send as many as ya like guys. Up your odds of winning the grand mystery prize.....mwaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahaha >:D
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How durable are 1/4" tips? I'm a little hesitant to go that thin without knowing who will end up using the bow. Will such narrow tips hold up to abuse and potentially incorrect stringing methods?
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MattS...IMHO 1/4" tips are fine if properly done. Obviously you can't cut string grooves and must do a tie on or sinew knock. They are more than durable. I understand the hesitation if one has never done them before,but ya just might make all or most of your tips like that after trying it. I know I love em. Hint,hint,hint....remember im also a judge. ;)
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Hey, by the way, I probably wouldn't write the best one myself, but does anybody think that one of the guys on here should write up a little "guide you using and caring for a selfbow" pdf or something?
I have something like that but it's on my work computer. I'll try and post it Monday.
Here's a modified version I include with any bows I make for other people. What do you all think?
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MattS...IMHO 1/4" tips are fine if properly done. Obviously you can't cut string grooves and must do a tie on or sinew knock. They are more than durable. I understand the hesitation if one has never done them before,but ya just might make all or most of your tips like that after trying it. I know I love em. Hint,hint,hint....remember im also a judge. ;)
I might do it just for you then :-* >:D
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Matt S.....that'll work great for bowcare instructions. I don't have a printer. Would ya wanna print a bunch up and stick em in your mailing tube with your bow?
And I better see tie ons on your tips...lol :laugh:
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Matt S.....that'll work great for bowcare instructions. I don't have a printer. Would ya wanna print a bunch up and stick em in your mailing tube with your bow?
And I better see tie ons on your tips...lol :laugh:
Sure, when it gets closer to the time let me know how many you need.
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Ok Matt ....will do. ;)
This sure is a blast so far guys :D. Lots of hype build up to it. "Mines gonna be better than yooooours"......."my bow can beat up your bow"......."na na na boo boo you can't catch me" :laugh: yeeeeeah riiiiight...lol :laugh:
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Heck with as much energy as we have put into posting so far we could have probably built one and earned enough money on the side to send it ;D ;D ;D ;
Ok Matt ....will do. ;)
This sure is a blast so far guys :D. Lots of hype build up to it. "Mines gonna be better than yooooours"......."my bow can beat up your bow"......."na na na boo boo you can't catch me" :laugh: yeeeeeah riiiiight...lol :laugh:
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I'm pretty sure I am going to use the description that they give for the Andaman hybrid type bow in the Bowyers Bible to model mine off of. I don't know which one it was but they did a pretty good job of describing it and telling specs on 3 different lengths. I'll see if I can't get some photos up of my board once I get home today.
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Are you talking about the short draw bend thru the handle design michael c? that did seem like a very efficient design. Im think pyramid style, but ridgid handle. mostly because thats what i have experience with. Just sent it thru the bandsaw a couple times and got a handle block glued up, its lookin ugly right now, but ill post some pics when i clean it up and start on the tiller. scrape hard and scrape well fellas.......and post pics! :P
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I don't think it was a short draw, I'm pretty sure it was 45# or so at 28" I will have to check the book to make sure
Here are the boards I'm probably going to slaughter ;D
(http://blog.jmcombs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/IMG_1187.jpg)
(http://blog.jmcombs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/IMG_1190.jpg)
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Looking good Michael. This is gonna be tough to judge with a lot of similar styles. All should be pretty smooth shooters from what im seeing so far. Might just come down to who's the fastest >:D
Nativenoobowyer I think your thinking of the short red oak pyramid with an ishi handle that drew to 23" on the next page after the Andaman-holmgaard section in TBB4. Id like to see someone build a pyramid. ;)
I haven't worked on mine in a few days. I got distracted with a black walnut stave. :P
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Michael, that design is looking fantastic. I may need to go even more narrow with my tips just to edge you out.
I was thinking a lot about that short pyramid red oak in TBB4. Even when only drawn to 23" it still had excellent speed. Keeping the same limb design but adding a long stiff handle would increase fps slightly if kept optimal but the tips would bend just as far as the short one so draw would still be limited to 23". My thought is that if the design could be extended to have a 28" draw, for increased energy storage, it may be one of the fastest designs out there. Keeping the same ratio of bow length to draw length, a longer bow of the same design would be 73" long for a 28" draw allowing a 7" stiff handle for an 80" bow with the same limbs. I may need to build this sucker. >:D
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Blackhawk: Rest assured, I'm building a pyramid. ;) Board is shaped, Handle riser is glued on and I'm in the floor tiller stage. Gotta re-look at the rules - make sure I know our draw length and poundage.
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Sweet Matt....thanks for updating and posting your progress :) 40-45lbs@28"
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Well I'm in the runnings :) picking my board up this weekend to get started. my goal is to make a mini yumi. mini to say because yumis are outragesly long lol wish me luck with this asymmetrical mini yumi lol .
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Menards carries 2 x 2 and 3 x 3 red oak boards (or staves I guess) if you wanted to make a d section yumi... or if anyone just wanted to make a d section bow.
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:( Don't have one of those stores close by
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Michael, that design is looking fantastic. I may need to go even more narrow with my tips just to edge you out.
Haha, go for it ryoon. I think this is going to be a lot of fun just seeing what comes out of it. If I win I will get to see a lot of cool bows up close, if I don't then I get to see a bunch of cool bows here.
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im not gonna show pics yet but i will say mine has four limbs and it aint a penbawhatever its called
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I was doing some thinking and it's the hankyu I want to build but I can't find it's demensions all I van find is that it's 5 ft long ugh lol maybe one of y'all know it's detentions or maybe just a good pic of one will do I can make the rest up :)
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I was doing some thinking and it's the hankyu I want to build but I can't find it's demensions all I van find is that it's 5 ft long ugh lol maybe one of y'all know it's detentions or maybe just a good pic of one will do I can make the rest up :)
http://www.shogunart.com/AccessoriesKagoHankyu.html
good luck man, I don't know how you will do it, but if you can it will be worth seeing it.
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Wow how did they get the curl in the end that is sweet well instead o wishing me luck just pray for me lol the only thing I can think of is either done while green or steam bent
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Alright guys...sounds like some different designs being done. Awesome.
Ken how are you making a 4 limbed bow and keeping it a selfbow. Split tips? Or one of those contraptions that has two bows on it with the strings coming together? Can't wait to see whatever it is. And how it shoots :o
Thanks so far to everyone again who's participating. You guys are making this happen and making it a lot of fun.
So far I believe there's a dozen participating not including me,so 13 ,and still two question marks. Sweeeeeet ;D
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yay i found some other hankyu pics that dont have the curl on the end
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Well those are cool skyarrow. Look at how long there arrows are. I've seen south americans with real long arrows too. Crazy. Id hate to hunt with those. Id be smacking everything in the woods. Lol.
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I have 2 small red oak board bows started for my grand kids.
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I agree about the Hunting part man the upper limb is Long lol Well guata the idea im planning on a 5ft bow with asymmetrical handle not shure on the shape of the limbs yet wish me luck :)
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Menards carries 2 x 2 and 3 x 3 red oak boards (or staves I guess) if you wanted to make a d section yumi... or if anyone just wanted to make a d section bow.
I love the Menards near my brother's house, they have red oak, maple, walnut, cherry and hickory. To bad we don't have any Menards in KY.
I've gotten my bow to the late floor tillering stage. Won't have time to work on it this weekend as we're going camping.
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No work from me either this weekend. Too dang hot and were going camping too and sitting/playing in a river all weekend.
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I think I might take a break from carving and printing sometime this weekend and at least finish the one bow and maybe start on the other.
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i am still working on mine.i have to work out in the yard and it has been 100 degrees here.so things have been slow.i've got the limbs bending a little.i am going to try and get it on the longstring tomarrow.i'll keep at it and do the best i can fellas,steve
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The "little woman" went away on a girls weekend. Tubing, camping, giggling, you know... girlie-girl stuff. The boy went to Grandma & Grandpa's house. I'm home alone - hooray!
I'm down in the bowshop, of course. I sanded 2 bows ready for finish, fletched and tipped a special arrow and now I'm working on my Red Oak Board Bow. Me thinks I'll do some tip overlays. Oh, did I give away my progress?
Huh? Did you think that I'd be mowing the lawn, or something?
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Nice matt looks sweet I just picked my board up I'm so exited but worried I had a bad selection to choose from I hope it don't pop a splinter :-\ hopefully by next weekend il be on the short string
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Thanks, Skyarrow! Good luck with yours. I got lucky, there was one good board in the whole bunch. I wanted to find two, just in case.
Red, tillered quickly. She's a bow! Shot 330fps. Yeah right... :laugh:
Sanding: Done! Tip Overlays: Done! Finish: Underway...
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i'm with you skyarrow.i had a hard time finding a good board.plus i suck at making bows.i got mine on the longstring today.everything is going well so far.i made a tillering gizmo last night and it is helping a bunch.probably have her tillered out tomarrow to brace hight.i am thinking about glueing on a handle.is this allowed?let me know,steve
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Yes, you can glue on a handle. Good Luck Seabass!
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thanks Matt,i'll keep at it.i'm doing ok,but i had a crappy piece of oak to start out with.if anything,i will learn something.
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I was wonderin if nock overlays are allowed? And if so, can they be different species of wood? Like osage overlays?
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I think the bow should be unbacked... No glue in any portion of working limbs allowed. Handle risers and tip overlays are okay because they are not in a working portion of the limbs.. Cool? :)
Toomany: Yes, they are. I checked earlier today. I put nock overlays on mine.
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Sweet. Thank ya M!
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Just out of curiosity, what is considered "average" for a 40-45# bow in terms of speed? I'm not talking some specialty flight bow or anything, more like a well-rounded, durable bow shooting 10 grain/pound arrows?
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You got me! I'm not a speed freak. Seems to be the latest thing, though. When I finish a bow I can just kinda tell if shoots faster than most. Scientifically speaking, the sounds you hear when you release the string and the arrow hits the target goes kinda like, "Pi-tunk." Some bows go, "Pi------------tunk." You know what I mean?
I'll be curious too. Mine sounded like, "Pi---tunk." I think its pretty good. ;D
We'll see.
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You got me! I'm not a speed freak. Seems to be the latest thing, though. When I finish a bow I can just kinda tell if shoots faster than most. Scientifically speaking, the sounds you hear when you release the string and the arrow hits the target goes kinda like, "Pi-tunk." Some bows go, "Pi------------tunk." You know what I mean?
I'll be curious too. Mine sounded like, "Pi---tunk." I think its pretty good. ;D
We'll see.
LOL, that sounds a lot like how I normally judge speed! ;D
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Welp...im back to a civilized world and back from no mans land appalachia West by God Virginia.
Im expecting to see the better bunch of bows shooting in the 150's to 160's fps with a finger release. Id like to see someone top 170 but I doubt we'll see that. Fingers crossed
I've been superbusy and my next two weekends ill be gone again. I've got a full plate, so ill only be able to work on mine here n there for small amounts of time during the work week. Some of you guys are leaving me in the dust. But its not who can build the fastest contest >:D
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Well I have been siting here looking at this board for 30 min now. And since my selection was slim on quality I decided to keep it simple so my chances of this bow breaking won't happen il try the hankyu later once i can resurch it more there isn't much info on it :( so hopefully by tomarrow il have it cut out andredyto be tillered
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Here is what I have so far my friend alex is visiting from Germany and he has never seen someone make a bow and he helped on the design of this bow I decided to try a hankyu and have made my first of many cuts to shaping it man itlooks weird with the handle so far off set I still need to make a form so I can heat and bend it let me know what y'all think
(http://i1228.photobucket.com/albums/ee451/bloodmoonwidow/afe5318b.jpg)
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Wow...funky cool skyarrow. I hope ya pull it off cus I wanna see n shoot that baby. I might have to give you an honorable mention if you don't win. Im also glad your having fun with it as this is one of the many reasons why were doing this. Looking sweet so far. Keep her updated ;)
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Thanx amigo ;D I just hope It don't blow on me I really want to see this thing shoot lol
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well guys,i just broke mine.i finally had one coming in at weight.67" 45@28.had it on my scale and "pop".at least it was a learning exspirence.i learn what not to do.i had a crappy piece of wood from lowes.it had some run off.i am glad it broke on me and not some kid.i just got some specs for another style of bow from toomanyknots.it looks like a better design.do count me out yet.i am still going to give it another shot.here's the break.
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That was definitely because of a run off, you can tell how it separated at the ring. Your tiller could of been perfect and that could of happened with the grain running off like that so don't be too hard on yourself or nothing.
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Man I hope that doesn't happen to me bummer man it definitely followed the runof
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OUCH Steve. Sorry to see and hear that. :'( Yup,that's def a grain run off break. I hope you can get the next one shooting.
P.s. tell toomanyknots to make one and send one himself ;)
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i'll try to get him too.i'm going to try and get another board tonight.don't count me out yet.i learned alot on this one.
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well guys,i'm back on.just got another piece of wood from lowes.this one is a 1x4 and has straighter grain.i am going to try toomanyknots pyramid design.Daniel,wish me luck.you should make one too.anyway,i have alot of work to do.take care guys,steve
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well guys,i'm back on.just got another piece of wood from lowes.this one is a 1x4 and has straighter grain.
Now that's the true spirit of making bows. Just like Jawge says " if ya ain't breaking,ya ain't making"
Ada boy Steve. ;)
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Woot
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All I could find with decent grain locally was a 1x2, meaning it's only 1.5" wide. I kinda want to do a pyramid bow, but I'm concerned this is too narrow. What to you red-Okies have to say about this choice?
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I think if it's a dense board it il be ok. If it's one of the less dense red oak boards, it il take alot of set. I have made somewhat of a pyramid out of a 1 1/2" wide red oak board before, I think if you leave the inner limbs full width and pyramid taper the outer half of the limbs it il take less set. Or this is what I did anyhow. That being said, I was also thinking of making a pyramid out of a 1 1/2" board from menards, LOL. Maybe flip the tips to try to reduce set...
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JW, Unless very long I believe 1.5" is too narrow to make a pyramid bow. If a straight taper to 1/2" tips, that's 1" at mid limb, not wide enough for the draw weight wanted at normal lengths. Unless of course you have a particularly dense piece.
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"JW, Unless very long I believe 1.5" is too narrow to make a pyramid bow."
I agree with ryoon, I think it should be 72" at least to take low set, as it is already not wide enough to not take very much set. At least if I make one it will be around 72".
"Unless of course you have a particularly dense piece."
Red oak timber does seem to vary alot in density, sometimes it is hard for me to find a good dense piece, but it is always better to look till you find it, then settle for those light weight ones... as I have found out recently... I had two cut out to the same exact dimensions recently. One was a light weight pinkish board, a molly that came out at 30# @ 28", if that. The other one was a nice dense whiter colored piece, I still haven't done anything with it yet, it will barely bend. LOL
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JW....there may not be a pyramid style bow in that board,but there's def a bow in it if its over 72"long and good grain. I know what id do with it. Its called either breaking or making....lol. hopefully making and sending it to the cookoff ;D
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To make the 40-45 lbs it will probably be a little too narrow if you are making a straight pyramid bow unless, you are making a shorter bow. If you are making a shorter straight pyramid bow, it will likely take on more set than a longer one will. Trade-offs....
By starting the taper after mid-limb, I think chances are good that you'll make the poundage. I would say go long, if you can.
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hey mwirwicki, i am not going to be able to build a bow for the cook off, i was doing some building on my house and drove a 16 penny nail into my drawing hand middle finger causing some nasty tendon and muscle damage, so im on hold shooting and building for now, at least until i heal up, best of luck for all the builders and hope whoever gets the bows enjoy them.
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Bummer Pesh! Hope that heals up soon. I know you'll go stir crazy not being able to make bow dust & shavings! I think the deadline is around Sept 15. Maybe if you heal by August 30, you'll still have time to make one!
Gotta think positive, you know....
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Ok I have a question what is the best way to heat bend red oak I'm planning to use a heat gun with clamps and a form iv never done heat shaping to a bow so I want to do it rite
Sterling
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I really don't have no experience heat bending red oak, let alone heat bending anything, so take that to note, but I would really go for steam to bend kin dried wood, just thinking about how dry the wood is already, thinking it might be safer.
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I've never heat bent a board so im no help either. Maybe steam for reflexing and boiling for recurving. I thought about reflexing my mid limbs but that's unchartered territory for me and I might just take two inches of follow and call it good enough.
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say, from my experience, a bow from a 1x2 (1.5" wide) will be plenty wide for 40-45#. I've made several red oak bows from 1x2x6 boards that pull in this weight range or higher just fine, and I'm not super picky about the density of my red oak.
I have one bow from a 1x2x6 board that tapers immediately from the fades to 1/2" tips, so it's only 1" at midlimb. This bow pulls 55# at 28" and has under 1/2" set. I just finished another red oak "shorty" 62" long with a kind of mix of Eiffel-tower taper and mollegabet (so each working limb is only 13.5") that pulls 42# @ 28" and has about 1" set measured at the tips.
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All I could find with decent grain locally was a 1x2, meaning it's only 1.5" wide. I kinda want to do a pyramid bow, but I'm concerned this is too narrow. What to you red-Okies have to say about this choice?
I'm also using 1x2s for this cook off. You have many possibilites. If its decently dense it will make weight easily.
Hell I made a 45lb@28" bow from a PINE 1x2. I can't wait to finish though. I wanna know how my noob skills stack up to you other more experienced guys here.
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well guys i have another bow in the works.i am doing another like the one i broke.only this time i am leaving it 72" instead of 67" like last time.i don't think the grain run-off is going to get me this time.wish me luck.here's a pic on the tillering board.
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I'd get mid limb bending more...looks as if most the bend is right near the handle.
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thanks aznboi.i'm working on it.
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no problem seabass...happy shavings :P
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Hey seabass that looks like oneof keenan's tillering benches if so man arnt they great I'd love to get one one day :)
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skyarrow,it is one of keenan's stave masters.it is awesome.i bought it at this years classic.once i tried it,i had to have one.
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Sweet was that the one at his booth If so I tillered my David knight Bow in it lol man it worked good even with that RD on It your so lucky to have one they work so much better then to wooded ones well ttyl and happy tillering I have to get back to work so I can get home and work on my bow I'm close to steam shaping it. it will be my first time to shape a bow wish me luck I hope it don't break on me but if so Ohh well it's all fun
Sterling
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i wish you luck Sterling.you played me some jazz on you guitar at the campfire one night.it was great.if you get a chance to get you a stave master,get one.it is very good on your back while tillering.keenan knows what he is doing.he will ship one right to your door.he is working on a tillering attatchment right now to go with the chair.if you order one,make sure you ask him about the attatchments.good luck with your bow,steve
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Hey all, I am going to have to pull out of the race because I found out on Friday my whole division is being laid off. I need to pinch the pennies over the next few months and I can't afford to ship a bow two times any time soon. I will keep working on my bow and try to post some photos as I can, but right now I need to concentrate on finding a new job and keeping track of my budget. Looking forward to seeing how this turns out though.
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Well crap Michael that really sucks. Sorry to hear that. :-\
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micheal,i am laid off right now also.i know how you feel brother.good luck on finding a new job.i hope you find one real soon buddy,steve
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Sorry to hear you got laid Off :'( may you find a new job soon
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Yesterday on my lunch break I finally got to work on my bow the long upper limb is floor tillered but the short lower limb need some work once that's done il heat shape them
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Well,your a half step ahead of me sterling. Mines still sitting in the corner waiting to be floor tillered. I've got a hickory sapling with the same design in the works almost ready to be braced. I did a black walnut but came in light and my upper limb changed drastically from shooting it in. It was weird,it went from 3/8" positive tiller to 7/8" So I set that in the corner of shame to be made into a womans bow and picked up the hickory stave. I loved the design,it flung a fast smooth arrow.
Take your time with your design. I really wanna see this one come to fruition.
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Me to I'm not worried about the long limb it's the short one that I'm afraid mite brake
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Well it looks like I won't get to work on my bow this weekend my wife's birthday is tomarrow and my mom bought her and I a two day hotel on the riverwalk in San Antonio and also bought us two tickets to see Chicago in concert tomarrow woot
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Ill wipe the dust off this thread.
So far I've gotten the first bow by Mwirwicki(Matt) BUT,sorry Matt I couldn't resist stringing her up and shooting her and I Broke it................... :-[
JUST KIDDING Matt...lol. :laugh: I haven't even taken her out o the sock yet n she's sitting in an optimum stable environment.
I still need to get mine bending. My schedules finally easing up a lil for the next few weeks so ill have time to squeeze her in.
How's the rest of the field doing???
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LOL Chris!
Okay fellow bowyers, let's get out the tillering sticks! Remember, this is for the kids and hunting season is coming upon us quickly!
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I got a possible candidate tillered out to 28" and have put maybe 50 arrows through it. I still want to tweak a few things before declaring it "done." I tried to take a few teaser photos this morning before work but the blasted batteries were exhausted. They only seem to work for a couple of shots before needing recharged...
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Getting ready to do some final work on mine. Went with a nice mollegabet design, shoots pretty quick and feels heavy. I gotta do some final weight reduction, had her pulling about 44# at 28" and I wanted to raise the weight so that when I did final sanding and everything I would end up in the wheelhouse. So I toasted the belly and I screwed up making some pin nocks so I had to chop those off resulting in me piking the tips down about an inch. So now I'm pulling 50# @28" after final sanding. I'm still shooting her in though since piking it down so hopefully that helps lower the weight some and then I can just sand the belly lightly for the extra couple of pounds or so I might need. Try to get some pictures up on here tonight of what it looks like now before I add a finish and handle.
~Barry
P.S. I was also thinking as a way to possibly hold down costs we might be able to have everyone ship to blackhawk for the testing. Then once we dertermine a winner we can get an estimate on shipping from the post office to ship the bulk package to it's final destination and then just divide that out amongst all the guys and then have them send the additional funds at that point. Don't know if that would help hold down costs or not, just an idea.
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Barry, sounds like it is coming along nicely. Can't wait to see some picts!
I've never heat treated a red oak board bow before. Is this a risky task? The only way toasted bellies add performance is through reducing set/adding reflex, right? If so, my bow has low set already, I'll have to decide if it's worth messing with.
P.S. I was also thinking as a way to possibly hold down costs we might be able to have everyone ship to blackhawk for the testing. Then once we dertermine a winner we can get an estimate on shipping from the post office to ship the bulk package to it's final destination and then just divide that out amongst all the guys and then have them send the additional funds at that point. Don't know if that would help hold down costs or not, just an idea.
I like this idea. Any way to cut back on costs will help all of us and maybe convince others to join in ;)
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Actually Matt you can gain some poundage with it as well by drying out the limbs. But as you said, I put the bow in my tip flipping jig, without flipping the tips, just trying to straighten the bow back out. But I had a lot of room to lower moisture because the bow was coming in at 14% so I toasted the belly to remove some and I probably gained about 5# to 10# from that and probably another 5# or so from having to cut the tips down. So it's pretty straight now, took on a little more set because of the additional stress put on by cutting down the tips. It's not looking too bad so far, I'm excited to see how it turns out once I get the stain and handle on it.
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I did some more sanding and tweaking last night and just couldn't wait, so added some stain. I also measured its weight, it's pulling 41# @ 28". I'm not sure if I should try tempering the belly just a little to pick up a couple extra pounds or just call it good.
Here are a few teaser photos (not the best quality)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-C_L-LyMdgic/TkUfEEsA5lI/AAAAAAAABNQ/IakcmmMBUfU/s800/PICT6419.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xtjTO2Jf2o4/TkUfERHMqAI/AAAAAAAABNQ/331NEaeTq7A/s800/PICT6418.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-2keCaNcHhu4/TkUfFcd3a1I/AAAAAAAABNQ/JRYnRzHCNBE/s800/PICT6417.JPG)
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Barry not sure how that bulk shipping would work. I wouldn't want any of the bows to be damaged. Does anyone know exact details on the best way to ship multiple bows at once?
MattS that's looking pretty slick
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Hope to finish over the weekend. Work schedule has been killer but I am not complaining. Very sorry to hear about the guys that were laid off.
I will ship any way y'all want. Just post instructions.
Lane
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I was thinking that we could find a larger box that they would all fit in, but to maybe bubble wrap each one individually within the box.
~Barry
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I included a bow sock with mine.
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Iv been working way to much to even do a scrape on m bow :( hope life will ease up soon I'd really want to see how this turns out
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ahhhh finally off work for the summer! so while at work i got the front view shape cut out and got the handle and the tip overlays glued up. but still got all the tillering and finishing work to be done. should be a fun week :)
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Got my handle cut out last night, now just some final shaping with the rasp/file and belt sander and then some shooting to see how it feels with the new handle on. Gotta see where the weight is coming in at may need some additional sanding because I believe it was coming in a few pounds heavy for the contest parameters. Hope to be putting on a coat of stain and waxing her up in the next couple of days.
~Barry
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Sounds good guys. Im lagging behind now. Mines still waiting to be tillered out. Life was supposed to slow down but it didn't. Hopefully next week I can start bending her.
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I know how you feel mine is collecting dust rite now :(
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Don't mean to push, guys. But, September 15th is coming probably a bit sooner than you think. Remember, putting on a finish, twisting a string and making a grip take about a week. So really, you've only got a couple of weeks to tiller and shoot it in.
Just sayin'.....
(Glad that I got on mine right away. I'm crazy busy now, too!)
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I'm not giving up yet but i feel I mite not finish in time :'(
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Bow shipped out Wednsday , USPS. Fellers I know most of you have shipped bows before but just a caution, check prices from carriers before using the postal service. I ain't never paid so much to ship so little.
Lane
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Thanks for the heads up Lane. Ill let ya know when its received. Thanks for participating
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lane if you will use usps online you can save a lot . sometimes the clerks get to measuring a lil much . and you get a discount for doing it online
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Thanks Ken.
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With the USPS if you go over a cumulative measurement of length + girth > 108" they will gig the heck out of you. Keep it below 108 and the rates are usually pretty reasonable.
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Lane.....Im sitting on my front porch pulling out some massive Osage boogers >:D and a package arrived from you ;)
I haven't opened it yet,but the box looks to be ok. So im sure the bows ok ;)
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Thanks Chris. Listen, if the bow looks rough, dinged and chipped then it just as I sent it. If it is all smooth and purty we got a problem. Also when it left here it would cast a 500 gr. arrow almost 11 yards. If it does better than that it may have been tampered with. Hope so.
Lane
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Surprised to hear that your local USPS gouges you on something long...i just shipped 2 Osage stave duct taped together to VA and it only cost me $16
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Three pounds and 66" priority mail SC to PA was a touch over $27. Regular delivery was gonna be $24 something. It fell into the " balloon " rate or so I was told.
Lane
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Thanks Chris. Listen, if the bow looks rough, dinged and chipped then it just as I sent it. If it is all smooth and purty we got a problem. Also when it left here it would cast a 500 gr. arrow almost 11 yards. If it does better than that it may have been tampered with. Hope so.
Lane
Laughing my freakin' butt off! Had to take my glasses off and wipe the tears. Nobody seemed to catch your humor, still talking US Post Office stuff. Still laughing. Now, the little woman is laughing. Had to show her your post.
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Thanks Matt I needed that. Early in this cook-off I was more or less an asshole on another related thread and haven't felt the warm fuzzy for a while(deservedly so).
Maybe I will be able to sleep tonight ;D
Lane
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Well Lane....we got a problem. I pulled it out n its all purty n smooth,BUT I did throw some arrows thru the chrony and I was getting only 10 fps....lol :laugh: kidding. Everything is still in one piece. And no I haven't shot it. I wont shoot any of em till the day of testing and judging.
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Well guys....the deadline is in one week and I only have two bows :-\
Better get to finishing em by this weekend and shipped out. That includes me too...well the finishing part anyways..lol. :P
So where is everyone at? Please chime in. If I don't hear from ya im gonna send out some pms tomorrow.
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I haven't had time to build one because of my new baby BUT I do have a nice red oak bow I finished right after my surgery I am going to send in. I won't be able to mail it until the 17th though because of lack of funds. :)
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I just need to take some photos... once the weather clears ::)
Then I'll ship it off.
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sad week...my car broke down...gotta expenses to get her back up and running so I can go to school and work. Sorry I can't afford to ship two ways.
good luck to all other competitors.
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Hey guys, so mine is tillered and shooting, and a lil rough sanded. im gonna be late :S but im still in, should be sanded and finished in a couple days. I am super critical and wish i could try again but it turned out ok (it hasn't snapped) and i am out of time :S :D
I will try and snap some pics b4 i ship it :D
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Bow received from M-P. Nice one Ron. She's all in piece....so far >:D
Still looking to hear from Ken75...Seabass..and where Skyarrow are at???
Bow testing is on the 24th folks. Get em sent in asap
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Still need to find something to ship this in. blackhawk, did you still want me to print off a few "How to Care for your Bow" pamphlets? If so, how many?
Here are a few picts I took tonight. I'm happy with this bow but I don't expect it to come close to winning. It's fast (especially for only 41#) but nothing out of this world. Should still make someone happy :)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EV3x1G68MGA/TnKOeq1WyII/AAAAAAAABOI/-10jqB_ov6E/s912/cook-off_1.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-UGxA5YSOv1E/TnKOgGj3OAI/AAAAAAAABOI/17a4KGw8EO4/s720/cook-off_3.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-1crOZI9qhL8/TnKOf7_K7LI/AAAAAAAABOI/JfeHGghMYGs/s720/cook-off_2.jpg)
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Looks good from here Matt :) u can just send one pamphlet n ill make the right number of copies. Thanks. Can't wait to c it.....and shoot it >:D
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welllllll looks like i am not goin to have the $$ for shipping. sorry fellas, i was really hopin to see how my ROBB stacked up but hard times means sacrafices must be made. Its sanded, shooting, stained, and finished. It came out a lil on the heavy side about 46 lbs at 28 in but im sure ill lose that laast lb when its got a few more arrows thru it.
Good luck to everyone who got their bows in on time :D
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Nativenoobowyer86 pm sent
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Got Matts bow today. Wheweee....can't wait to shoot this one. >:D
I can't wait for Saturday boys. Wish we could all be here for the testing and shoot each others bows and make a field day out of it. This is gonna be fun.
The arrow that will be used for chrono testing is spined at 45lb and weighs 430 grains. Everyone ok with that?
speak now or forever hold your peace.
Well...after seeing the bows(except Josh's yet) I can say for certain I wont be winning ::)...or will I??....lol 8)
Good luck to everyone who participated and a BIG thank you to ALL who did ;D
Ps..I might post a pic of mine tomorrow or sat morn.....maybe ::)
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Well...I hate to admit this and feel really embarrassed. :-[
I was tweaking mine down tonight and had a few more lbs and a couple inches to go. I decided to further narrow my tips down and made a boo boo with the belt sander. I tried to continue and smooth the transition into the tips out but by the time I had it smoothed out there just wasn't enough there for lateral stability. I strung it up anyways but as soon as I start to pull on it you can see the tips wanting to bend sideways. If I tried to pull to full draw they'd snap for sure. If I try to pike the bow im only left with 59" total length,which isn't enough for a board drawing 28"
Im such a dumb rear. I should've just left em alone. Soooo.....I hate to say it and feel really stupid as I started this whole thing,.....but. I think im out guys. Saying sorry just isn't enough. You guys don't know how bad I feel. :-[ :-\ :'(
Im gonna go climb in a hole n lick my wounds
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Even the best mess up .
plow on my friend !
Guy
I am interested in how this comes out cause I have never seen a red oak board I would try to use for a selfbow ! Maybe I'm to picky!
Give us the report with lots of pics !!!
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Buckeye: You should have seen my board. I think even you would have tried to make a bow out of that one. It was near perfect. (Not saying anything about the bow, just the board). It was fun to make. I never made an unbacked board bow.
Chris, Chris, Chris.....
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Buckeye: You should have seen my board....it was awful.... at least by normal standards.
I have only been at this for around 5 months and red oak boards are easy to get and ready to go. My first 5 were all ROBB and the two that are still slinging arras have bad grain and run outs galore. The ones with really good looking grain were probably better bows but they died young. My cook-off bow was number 6 for me and I was tempted to use good grain(which I have) but I held out and sent in a bow with not so good grain. It has 300 arrows through it and while it ain't fast I believe it will last.
Or either break.
Lane
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Yeah, most of my red oak board bows have less than ideal grain on the back. I still have my first unbacked red oak board. Bow did I overbuild it! I was so scared that it would break. Now that I sort of know what I'm doing and what I can get away with I'm not too concerned about tension failures with RO. In fact the last couple failed RO board bows have failed in compression (chrysalled).
Can't wait to see photos of everyone's bows!
Chris, could you glue up some flax on the sides, like mentioned by Tim Baker in TBB4? If not I say pike it and see what happens!
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Well I don't have any flax,and thanks for the idea. I might tinker with it tonight and pike it down to 57" ntn and retiller for more bend thru the handle and see what happens. Can you say holy SET batman. That's pulling a board almost half its length(just an inch shy).......yeeeeeesh. I think I got the width though,so we shall see.
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Go for it Chris! Got nothing to lose. See what it will take.
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Chris it is your ballgame and it will kinda suck if you ain't playing ???.
All you gotta do is whip out a piece of red oak board and fly through it in survival mode ;). Might not be pretty but if you really needed a bow you could do it >:D. Anyhow, sleep is over rated.
Lane
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Well gentleman....we have a winner....and the winner is.......?
You'll have to wait till I can download photos and put it all in a proper organized thread. You'll know by this eve or tomorrow. Thanks guys.
THIS WAS A BLAST TODAY!!! :laugh: ;D ;) :)
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Ooh, way to go with the teaser! Can you hear the Jeopardy theme? The suspense is killing us!
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Waiting
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I hope he posts the top 5 or 10 along with their chronograph results!
Once again, the generosity of this forum blows me away. The willingness to share experience, materials, and completed works is off the charts!