Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: coaster500 on October 22, 2011, 12:51:15 pm
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This question is for selfbow builders,,,,
Being new to bow building I have a question about shooting characteristics of different woods. If you were to describe the differences, what would your favorite wood be? I’m not asking what wood you prefer to work with but more what wood do you like in a finished bow? What bow have you built, with what wood and in what style?
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Coaster this is a question that I hope some of the "real" bow builders answer cause it would be interesting.
I only have six months of experience, 10 bows, to answer from. Have built 2 pyramids, 4 semi-mollies, and 4 flatbows. In each case I built the first from red oak boards and then hickory. Hickory is my choice of bow wood not just because of personal experience but because of what others have said about it. Osage is probably the absolute best but I ain't ever even seen a piece of it. I don't want to get started with a wood that I have to buy every piece of.
Hickory is tough and hard to break(but i can do it) and the bows have authority without a bunch of extra weight. Hic is pretty sensitive to MC but I haven't had any problems as of yet. It is fairly easy to work and getting good, clean staves is easy. It ain't glamorous but I build 'em to shoot not look at.
Lane
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I shall be contentious and say the shooting characteristics are as much about the bow design and the skill of the bower as they are about the wood.
Of course the wood influences the design, but it's possibly unfair to compare an Osage recurve with a Yew longbow.
My favourite bow tends to be the last one I buit, but one of my all time favourite, keep going back to it bows is a Hazel primitive, it's as wide as the Mississippii and short as my patience ;)
Del
(I just read this out to Mrs Cat and she says it's a little bit longer than my patience ;D)
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I like osage and hickory for their finished physical weight. I like to feel the bow in my hand whether holding it or shooting it, I want some weight. I have about any native North American wood at my disposal nowadays and always go back to my osage stash because it allows me to build just about any style of bow I care. Skinny, wide, short, long, backed, not backed, recurved, flipped and any other options I missed. Even a short osage bow has some nice weight to it. I do get tired of seeing and working yellow wood, when I do I switch to some ash or hickory to mix it up. Usually that means a longer, flatbow of sorts. For me its the physical weight of a finished bow that attracts me the most.
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I think its more the individual piece of wood than the kind of wood !
I have an Osage bow that simply amazes me and I shoot it the most!
I have done plenty of hickory that are ahead of the other Osage bows I have so hence my answer !
The piece of wood and the style you like!!
Keep it simple Keep it fun !
God is good !
Guy
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Every bow wood has a design that it performs best with. And in actuality most bow woods, if built to the appropriate design and executed properly, perform similarly. A hickory bow will shoot as well as an osage bow or a yew bow or ash, maple, etc, if the design is appropriate for the wood chosen.
My favorite bow wood is osage but mainly because I'm lazy and sloppy and osage will put up with me and still make a good bow. ;D I like working other woods and have just completed a HHB flatbow that shoots pretty good. Last winter I made a 60" elm static recurve that I consider one of my better bows. It is a copy of a few similar osage bows and the elm performes as well as the osage does.
I think most folks think of a bow they want to build first, then find a piece of wood and make the bow...but wonder why it doesn't perform they way they think it should. I find a piece of wood and try to match the design of the bow for the wood, not only for the woods strengths and weaknesses but also for it's physical attributes(or flaws).
Also I think folks want to build the perfect bow their first time out instead of learning proper tillering methods, proper use of tools and without considering the wood and it's strengths and weaknesses. George Tsoukalas busted 14 bows before he built a successful one. I built bows for over 10 years before I felt comfortable and confident enough to hunt with them. Both of us learned something from each bow we "built" and we both use those mistakes to learn the proper way to build a bow. And now, 25 to 30 years later I can still screw up a simple wood bow if I try hard enough! ;)
So, it is not just the wood or the design or the technique or the execution but all of the above placed in the correct order of importance. ...now, what was your question? ;D
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After giving this some thought I guess the question is to general .... I thought that perhaps some of the mass producers here :) had built enough bows similar in design and from different woods that they might have favorite... This is just for curiosity sake as I have a half dozen staves ready to play with of various woods. I worked a Mulberry and a Koffee Tree so far. I’m working a Hackberry right now (I think I could rough out a bow with a butter knife with this one).... I’ve got a Vine maple, Hickory, two Osage (green), Yew and two more very nice Mulberry’s in the dugout.
Lane with 10 bows under your belt you’re light years ahead of me.
Del... I’d like to see that wide as the Mississippi Bow and short as your patients ... bow
Pearl Drums, I like a bit of weight to a point in my bows, but also like smooth and as little shock as possible (more a design issue probably)
Guy as you can see I want to give them all a chance but I like to hear what others have to say especially the pros for a comparative basis... Might give me some idea how to get after a particular stave? Truly I am enjoying this more than I have enjoyed anything I have built for a long time :)
Pat B my question was :)
Now I forgot ;)
Good stuff ....
“I find a piece of wood and try to match the design of the bow for the wood, not only for the woods strengths and weaknesses but also for it's physical attributes(or flaws).”
“So, it is not just the wood or the design or the technique or the execution but all of the above placed in the correct order of importance. ...now, what was your question?”
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You ought to be able to look at each stave you have and figure out what would be the best design for that stave. One of the main things I like about building wood selfbows is no two are alike. There is no set design that works best for selfbows in general. Each stave is unique. ;)
It is great to have other like minded folks available to discuss these things with. When I started I had a book or two and a lot of curiosity so I started building wood bows. Until I hooked up with PA my bow building was all trial and error with error winning out most. Once I got on PA and began seeing others bows and discussing methods and techniques my bows became BOWS! Having events like the Tenn. Classic to attend with lots of wood bow builders and lots of wood bow building and getting to meet lots of the folks here on PA really has set the bar higher for all of us and the improvement shows. You know it takes a village to build a wood bow! ;)
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The question "What kind of bow do you like best" is really close in philosophy to the time immortal question: "What end of a hotdog do you eat first."
The answer to both is....whatever is closest.
Oddly enough, with around 200 bows under my belt, I don't have one of my own that I shoot! My "everyday" shooter was given to me by my bowmaking mentor when my first bow, an ash character flatbow, blew up weeks before my first archery deer season. I also own bows by several guys on this site and each one is not only a work of art, but a joy to shoot. Even the one that was the second ever bow built by the guy!
Build 'em, shoot 'em, break 'em, trade 'em, make yet 'nuther 'un! Never was it so more true than in making bows....it ain't the destination but the journey.
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You won't find any real difference in the feel of wood assuming profiles are the same. For some unknown to me reason I enjoy shooting well made yew bows and elm bows. I could swear I feel a difference in them but Tim Baker assures me if I were blindfolded I would never know what I was shooting. I decided not to put myself to the test so I can continue with my love affair. Aside from that I see it like Pat B, my bowmaking has devolved into simple stave bows almost exclusively, I just like the way a stickbow shoots and feels. I also enjoy the process I have fell into, and I spend a lot more time on a bow than I used to. I like to slowly clean up the stave both back and belly, exposing one growth ring on back and belly and then deciding where I want to go with the bow. I enjoy a lot of floor tillering while I make my decision and gradually bring it in to the point of no return where the design is set. My go to wood is usually osage as I seem to get the best feeling and most desire to finish a nice osage bow.
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Personally, I am a bandwagon and love osage. I have only used it once, but the bow i built took zero set, had thin lims, and shoot real real fast... I also love the look of a snaky bow as much as a straight one. Come to think of it, I love the look of all wooden bows... ;D ;D ;D
Jon
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i still havent figured out what i like best....maybe i havent built enough to make my mind up . every now and then a design and wood type come together greatly.
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Pat B this place is great and it would be super to go to one of events like the Tennessee Classic and hopefully that will happen someday, but for now you guys are great and PA has been a veritable cornucopia of information.....
JW_Halverson, with 200!!!! Bows under your belt they are probably becoming a blur … Don’t know that I’ve got enough days left for 200 bows …
“Build 'em, shoot 'em, break 'em, trade 'em, make yet 'nuther 'un!” ;D
Badger, at least with your elm love affair you can claim a favorite… They may shoot the same but with the few woods I’ve used so far there is sure a difference in weight and toughness of the woods!
Jon, no doubt about that Osage seems to be on the top of the bow woods favorite. It my end up mine but won’t know that until I get after one :)
Ken, so far that silly little Mulberry “D” I made brings a smile to my face every time I fling and arrow… just a handy accurate little shooter. As short as it is I don’t know how long it’s going to hold up but I love shooting it and I’ve probably put 5 or 6 hundred arrow thru it …. We’ll after 10, 15 bows but I would just as soon shoot it as one of my hi-dollar customs…. Weird ???
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For me it have to be HICKORY and OSAGE, in that order. DEL and PAT both have very good points. Maybe it's because with these I've built the most. But have tryed everything I could get my hand on.
These bows always have the best cast,fasted and seam to me be well balanced it the hand no matter what design. I totally agree with PAT when he said that's hard to mess up and Osage. I NO LONGER PICK UP A STAVE AND BUILD A BOW JUST TO SEE IF I CAN GET A BOW FROM IT. Did alot of this when I was younger. YOU KNOW THE OLD SAYING. there's A BOW IN EVERY STAVE. YOU JUST HAVE TO KNOW HOW TO LET IT OUT. Now I cut the cleanest ,straightest stave I can find then add my own reflex. So out of a nice stave it's HICKORY with a not so nice stave I'd have to go with OSAGE.
I lean towards HICKORY,ELB, STIFF HANDLE AND TIPS. To me it tillered right this bow has good as it gets when building self bows great cast,really fast and hard hitting. But thats just me.
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Coaster,I think at this time,my favorite bow woods,based on performance,are osage,eastern hophornbeam,and the dense elms,particularly slippery elm. I build a lot of hickory bows,but it is so easily affected by changes in humidity,they are high maintenance in my part of the country.Even saying that,I am using a hickory bow this season.(At least till the rain comes back. ;)) God bless
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Ok Coaster I exagerated a tad :-[.
(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp195/Del_the_Cat/deerbow.jpg)
Actually my lasted bow 'twister' which I posted a short while back is now my fave', I modelled it on the Hazel bow, a tad narrower and longer with much slimmer tip, shoots reall fast and consistent, groups like a dream. Just shot my best ever field round of 30 targets, I'd usually score a little over 300, I score 492 out of a max 600 ! :), nearly every target was a first arrow wound or kill.
Del
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Very nice Del.... maybe not Mississippi wide but that was a well used stave, I love the way the bark wraps the perimeter and covers the handle. Great natural trim. That took more patience than you claim to have :)
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I think a big factor in choosing a wood should be looking at which woods suit your climate. Over here in north England we get a lot of high humidity days. For my laminated bows ipe and greenheart both work excellently showing only minimal set when well tillered, for self bows I like elm and black locust. I guess you could also factor in how easy a particular type of wood is to work.
Once you've chosen a particular wood or narrowed it down to a few that will work well in your environment then it's a good idea to keep in mind that they will all shoot the same speed when designed properly and it's down to you to get the best out of the wood - no excuses!
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mikekeswick, I live in a Simi dry area on the central coast of California so just about any wood will do here, but I hunt anywhere the time and wallet will let me, I don't own a custom bow that does not break down and travel. If and when my skill level improves enough for me to make a take down it will probably be with Osage just for the toughness and moisture resistance.
This turned into a thoughtful thread. I appreciate your comments. I think it expressed your passion for the woods and the bows they (freely or kicking and screaming) allow us to remove from them :)
Thank you
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My favorite bow wood is Free bow wood. I'm really fond of its characteristics; makes a really sweet shooting bow.
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I think Pat B and Badge hit the nail on the head. I have also heard the same about not being able to tell the difference if blindfolded but disagree. And no I have not tried it. However somehow it just seems to me that a denser wood like Osage or Ironwood will have more of a thump to the shot then a lighter wood like Yew or Vine Maple. My personal favorite is Yew.
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Coaster,
I don't want to rob your thread but can't help asking a question based on the underlying theme going around here. It appears most bowyers of experience say "I let the wood choose the design". It sounds almost cliche' to me. Not to say its not true, I'm just too green to understand it. It's obvious I'm very inexperienced but would like to know what you guys look for in the wood that dictates design. What characteristics persuade for a pyramid, mollie, elb, D bow, recurved tips and etc.?
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It's not really about d-bow, mollegabet, holmguaard etc it's really about the cross section and width of the limbs. Different woods have different properties and when designed around these properties will all shoot the same. It mainlt ot do with width of the limbs but there are many factors involved.
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after reading all the responses, a question comes to mind.
it seems many of ya'll deem certain woods lend themselves better to certain designs.
has anyone put together a list or chart that matches wood type to bow design?
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Read 'the mass principle' chapter in vol4 TBB - it says it all!
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Ny arrow, that is an excellent question. I think many have no asked it for fear of being disrespectful. Just speaking for myself here. When I get a brand new stave in the mail first thing I do is clean it up, sometimes I have a particular desogn in mind when I purchase the stave but most of the time I just wing it. Lets say I have a piece of osage 68" long, not much crown and a full 2" wide. This leaves me open to most anyting I want to build. In this case I simply choose what I want because I can do anything. But at the same time I know that getting a stave like this is not all that common and their are certain designs I have been wanting to try but never had a stave I felt was suitable. I would likely build a bow from this I felt would be competitive in broadhead flight shooting, probably a modified molly type with a hint of r/d in it.
Another factor is that most of us have settled into a style of sorts, the stave we have available mainly based on it's limitations will dictate the demensions and tiller shape to a certain degree.
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Osage!!!?? Hedge, for the most part will give more snap with smaller dimensions than other woods. That being said, every tree has it's own, very different, characteristics. Tension wood, compression wood, large/small early and late rings or combinations thereof......many variations make every bow unique.
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Top Three:
Osage: Most interesting and fun to work with and excellent (best?) self-bow performance when finished.
Hickory: Highest quality to find in board form (IMO), usually the easiest find and to work with, cheap to buy and extremely good performing self-bow.
Ipe: Hard to work with due to density, some people allergic to oils/dust, use only as a core for backed bow; however, EXTREME HIGH PERFORMANCE (just finished latest bow, BBI and it is hitting my highest arrow speeds ever).
Disclaimer: 1)Haven't worked with Yew yet, so no opinion at this time. 2) Mulberry is another big favorite but hard for me to find.
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Osage and hickory are fun and tough...but the one I have the most fun with /best results has to be iron wood aka hhb. ;)