Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Canoe on October 22, 2011, 03:32:54 pm
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Howdy Group,
Well, I'm movin' forward on this White Ash stave bow. But, I have questions...
1) At low brace height, I measured it to be 25# @18". I'm sure I could pull it farther, but that's all I've gotten it to for now. So, did I miss my target poundage of 52# @ 27"? And, is there an easy way for me to figure this out on my own? (I could take a few inches off each end. Would that bring me into range?)
2) This stave has a few problems on its back. So, I intend to back it with rawhide. At what point is the right time to back a stave?
As always, thanks for your insightful guidance,
Canoe
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Getting to low brace is about 80% of the work.
I'd say you should have been pulling it to nearer the final weight all the way through the proces... ok maybe not full target but at least 75%.
Bottom line is if you are aiming for 52# @ 27" you've got to pull it to 52# or to 27" at some point. I know it's nerve wracking, but if tou think the tille ris looking good, then bring it back another inch and check the weight and tiller... if it's still good repeat the process, stop if you hit a) 52# b) 27" c) it goes BANG.
Fingers crossed it's not c)
Good luck
Del
PS. You could do some fancy arithmetic based on 2# per inch or whatever... but all the arithmetic in the world won't effect the reality!
Once you have it back to 27" if the weight is low you can then worry about shortening it, fliping the tips or whatever... bottom line is still you've got to pull it back to 27" sometime.
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Howdy Del,
Thanks, I will proceed with caution.
And, what about the backing question? I'm guessing it's to early to consider backing it at this point. (?)
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It's never too early to back with rawhide and the only time it is too late is if the bow has already broken. ;D If you want to do any heat treating wait until after that to back with rawhide.
If your limbs are bending well pull the bow slowly to your desired weight and note the draw length(unless over 27"). I usually figure 2# to 3# per inch to get me in the ball park....but, no matter if you hit weight or not complete the bow. There are a few options that can increase draw weight but the tiller must be good for any of them to work.
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Del once advised someone to pull it until it breaks then back off a tad!
Pat has a great point. I've backed a stave shortly after pulling off the bark when it was wringing wet just to see if it would prevent the back from checking. I used hide glue and it got moldy. So I guess I proved him wrong about it never being too early!!! >:D
If you are concerned about the bow coming in lower in draw weight than you can live with, maybe you should wait until it is close to final tiller before applying the rawhide. That way if it is too light you can save the rawhide for the inevitable next project.
Hang in there, we're all pulling for you.
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Howdy Group,
I'll be heading back out there to do some more damage scraping, I'm really excited about the thought of building a good huntin' bow from this stave.
Thanks for pullin' for me,
Canoe
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Howdy Group,
Well I grit my teeth and slowly pulled it out to 27".
It's coming in at 34#@27". (Way too low :-\) (Was shooting for 52@27.)
The over all length of this stave is 70-1/2" long, so I could stand to cut some length off of it if were worth my trouble. (?)
So, what do you all think, should I set this one into the corner and move onto my next stave? Or, should I go ahead and try to rescue this one.
I could cut it off and, as Pat said, go ahead and re curve this one to increase the poundage?
What do you think?,
Canoe
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Trying to make one work usually doesn't work out as well as you wished it would. For now, set this one aside and start your next one. Later, come back to this first one and finish it and give it to your wife, girl friend or a neighbor kid.
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Howdy Pat and Group,
Yeah, I'll set this one aside and move on to the next stave (or board). I have eight or nine staves all roughed out and waiting for some attention, I'll just grab another one and have at it -- with lessons learned.
Thanks much all,
Canoe
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I would like some pictures first but right now I vote cut it down and heat in some reflex !
Still a lot to learn from this piece of wood
Guy
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If your tiller is good then you can certainly cut some off the length especially if you back with rawhide.
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Canoe,
Pat's advice about setting this one aside for awhile and starting another one is good. I was wondering what your design is for this bow? ELB, flatbow, or what; also, did you let the wood dry out completely? I guess I'm curious that the weight at 27" isn't heavier.
Eric
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Regardless of backing type, I always back a bow before I start tillering it.
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Ok , I am a little confused so somebody straighten me out. Canoe you said this stave is 70 1/2 " I believe. Some said put it aside some said pike it so which is it?
My opinion...keep a close eye on tiller, go slow and cut it down ever how much the wood will stand or until you hit weight. Then back it.
I also don't believe in pulling too hard til the tiller and the weight are close to target. If enough wood is left during the floor tillering you can creep up on the weight you want and never come in light unless the wood gives of course. But that's just me.
So Canoe, what you gonna do?
Lane
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I have found that if Im not at least 45# @ 20" I will never make the usual 50-60# @ 28" bow after sanding and shooting in, thats at full brace and properly tillered. Im with Marc on this one, snip off at least 1 1/2" per end. Thats alot of bow for 27", even unbacked. If you put some rawhide on the back I would nip that sucker right down to 62-64" ttt and you will have all the draw weight you want.
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One reason I said to put this one down until later and start fresh with a new one is that you are agrivated, frustrated with this bow. By putting it aside and starting fresh with a new one it will clear your head so when you get back to it you can think clearly about where you are and where you want to go with this bow. That, IMO, will give you a better chance at finishing up successfully.
On your new bow start fresh and know where you are going with it. Make a goal and achieve it. If you want a bow that is 66" long and 50#@27" then start with the appropriate size stave(say 68") and design the bow to match the stave and the wood and take your time and make every scrape and rasp thoughtful. If you think you might screw up, you probably will. If you think you will build the bow you want, you probably will(barring any natural disasters). Positive thinking will get you way farther down the bow building road than just trial and error.
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"Still a lot to learn from this piece of wood"
Guy
Howdy Group,
OK, it sounds like there's a lot of interest in this stave.
So, I'll go ahead and pike it down to about 65" ttt, then I'll have a look at the tiller and poundage. If it's still too low in poundage, it might make a nice gift to the guy how gave me the small pile of super straight, White Ash logs that this stave comes from. (He has a bunch of young, outdoorsy sons, I bet they could find use for a primitive bow.)
This stave I'm working with has been sitting in my very dry basement for a few years - it's dry and able.
The design is an ALB type; 70-1/2" long, just 1-5/8 wide until the last 13" where it tapers to about 1/2" at the tips. There is plenty of meat in the handle area for it to have a nice, cut-in arrow rest. I haven't cut in the rest yet... (I'm a lefty. But, if I'm giving it away, I'll make it a righty bow.)
So again, I'll pike it and then check out the tiller and poundage. From there, I'll decide if I'm going to heat in some reflex and back it.
I'll be sure to post a few pic.s today.
Again, thanks for your interest and guidance,
Canoe
Pat, I'll get a fresh start on my next bow real soon - a Red Oak board bow that is a 65" long ALB, 1-7/8" wide and tapers to about 1/2" at the tips.
I appreciate your advise,
Canoe
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I did not intend to imply that Pat was wrong in his advise , just did not want it set aside to far because its just getting started !!
I wanted to only offer encouragement ! It ain't over till its over !
I usually work on multiple bows at the same time , so I can switch to one in a differant stage if I start to get frustrated or in a hurry!!
Long as your having fun , have at it !!
Guy
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Howdy Group,
So, I cut the length of this White Ash stave from 70-1/2" to 65". I then roughed in some string grooves and put it up on the tillering board for a picture..
The tiller is off in that it seems to be bending to much just out of the fades, and not bending enough mid- and outer limb.
At this point, the bow comes in at 40#@ 27".
I'm thinking about cleaning up the tiller some and then gifting this one away to some lucky kid.
What are your suggestions?
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IMO
It's what I call a bit 'square' that is the middle third here the handle is rather horizontal and the two end thirds are rather vertical.
So it needs to bend more at the fades and at near the tips.
But hey if it shoots that's a darned good start.
Del
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Howdy Del,
Yes, it's bending mostly a little out of the fades. I didn't notice how bad it was until I looked at the picture.
I'm thinking about spending a little time cleaning up the tiller? Or, maybe I should just move on, hopefully, with having learned a thing or two?
All the Best,
Canoe
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Now that you see the hinges, or spots that are bending to much! Work to get it evened up ,Post a new pic,then lets talk about flipping the tips and heat treating it !
Guy
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Howdy Group,
This morning, I restarted a Red Oak, ALB, board bow. One of the limbs was bending smooth and evenly, the other limb had a bad hinge -- it snapped :(.
I'll get back to this Ash ALB, and see if I can get the limbs bending better. Then, as Guy said, I could look at heat bending, etc.
Thanks for your encouragement,
Canoe
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Howdy Group,
Yesterday, I began to re-tiller this 65", White Ash ALB. Short story is that it too snapped after removing wood in the non-bending areas of the limbs. I was exercising the limbs down to about 25" when the one let lose and snapped.
I believe I learned a little from these recent two failures. And, I'm well into my next 65" White Ash ALB. (It was already roughed out, and is now just about floor tillered.)
I think I will start a new thread, (what do you think?), for this this new bow.
I'll get it to low brace, and then post a picture. On this new White Ash, I had to heat in some reflex into one limb to get the limbs even. I don't know how much time I should let the limb sit before starting to work the limbs?
Thanks again for all you interest and encouragement,
Canoe
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Howdy Group,
Well, this most recent White Ash bow is way under weight already.
I was not being patient enough, and next thing I knew I was looking at a low poundage bow. I haven't measured it yet, but it's quite low.
I'll have to pull out the band saw and rough out some more staves from my wedges of logs. I still have some White Ash, and I have some Shagbark Hickory all dried and ready to go.
All the Best,
Canoe
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Keep trying. YOu'll get a bow. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
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Is the ash thoroughly cured?
Lane
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Howdy Lane johnston and Group,
Yes, the Ash has been sitting under the stairs of my very dry basement for about 2-1/2 years. The wood was originally cut in midwinter, so there was little sap in the logs to start with.
It's just me and my spokeshave, I was scraping way too fast and carelessly.
I still have some more Ash in the basement. And, I have a few split hickory logs that were cut early this Spring. Maybe today I'll rough out a few more staves.
Wish me luck.
Canoe