Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: ratty on July 28, 2006, 09:17:22 am
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hello all im after a little advice :-\
ive made 2 bows of white ash and i have a nice piece of oak waiting to be worked ;)
but my question is i have the opportunity to get my hands on some willow. :)
my question is can a bow be made from willow? :-\
i have seen arrows made from this but only heard rumours of bows made from it and i cant find any reference of anyone making one from willow on the internet.
what do you think? :-\
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You could possibly make a bow from willow, but if I could find anything else , I wouldn't use it. It's marginal bow wood at best. Some southwestern tribes made bows from willow because that was all they had, but they were made with intentionally deflexed tips to reduce strain and keep them from breaking. Tim Baker wrote in one of the Bowyer's Bibles about making a willow bow as an experiment because it was "about the worst possible stave choice, being weak in both compression and tension, as well as low in elasticity." To get a decent 35# bow from it, he had to make it 68" long, decrown it for a perfectly rectangular cross section, and make the limbs 3" wide. He said that a 50# willow bow would have had to have limbs over 4" wide to be efficient. In short, there is a reason why you don't hear much about people making willow bows: it pretty much sucks as bow wood. Use the oak.
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Here are some excellent, concise willow bowmaking instructions written by Bowmonk (Russell) that I liberated from another forum-very good tutorial and excellent advice. ;D
Willow WILL "make" excellent bow wood... here is the process to follow to bring about it's greatness...
First... select a willow tree that is fairly uniform... difficult task i know, but you can find them from time to time. 6" to 8" diameter is sufficient.
Second... cut it down and split it into rails immediatly... willow is a wood that retains much moisture and will lose it quickly, so if you split it quickly it will have less chance of checking and ruining your fine stave. Aslo... the rapid drying will make for some nice backset.
Third... after they have cured for about 2 months, stack all of your staves on the ground over a pile of cedar chips and news paper... this will aid in keeping the willow from drawing back in the moisture that you waited so long for it to lose.
Fourth... find some matches and light the news paper... this is called heat treating... or as some would call "toasting".
Fifth... crack the top on your favorite beer or soda, and kick back and watch that bitch burn to the ground!
Sixth... after the ashes have cooled... till it into the ground... this is called "tillering"
Seventh... ring you best buddy in archery and ask him to send you some of those Osage orange fruits... and plant them in the freshly tillered soil. The willow ashes will act as a wonderful fertalizer and soil sweetener... Thus it will aid or "make" an excellent bow wood in about 20 years
Now you can relax... and keep smiling, knowing that someone cares about you, and doesn't want to see you waste your time.
~Russell
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Yep tahts what I would do pappy. Hey is Russell still around and making bows? He does great work. He and a guy from FL who made the short stiff-handled bows, I cant' remember his handle but I admired both their stuff.
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The first time I met the master bowyer John Strunk, he put a relatively short, highly crowned willow bow less than 2 inches wide in my hands. Typical of his work, it was a beautiful weapon with hardly any set. He smiled slyly and said, "and everybody says you can't make a bow out of willow." Very good, patient bowyers can do things that us 'bow design and performance' readers didn't think possible.
I would use the oak, but it would be pretty cool if you could build one of your long D bows out of willow and post a pic for us. See if you can get 50#. It would be a bow of the month challenger for sure! J. D. Duff
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for a willow bow (it would be fun to make one) I wouldn't make it any shorter than 76", and I wouldn't make it any narrower than 1.5". I would make it slightly elliptical tillered for 50# at 28". You might be able to pull this off, but it wouldn't be easy.
Don't use a tree with any less than 4" diameter.
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Holy crap hillbilly, I darn near busted a gut when I hit the part about watching that "bitch" burn, that kills me, funny stuff.
VB
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The first time I met the master bowyer John Strunk, he put a relatively short, highly crowned willow bow less than 2 inches wide in my hands. Typical of his work, it was a beautiful weapon with hardly any set. He smiled slyly and said, "and everybody says you can't make a bow out of willow." Very good, patient bowyers can do things that us 'bow design and performance' readers didn't think possible.
I would use the oak, but it would be pretty cool if you could build one of your long D bows out of willow and post a pic for us. See if you can get 50#. It would be a bow of the month challenger for sure! J. D. Duff
Does John Strunk have the internet? I would like to ask some questions about that bow. But I would bet five bucks that its' actionwood, or maybe an unusually dense piece.
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What J. D. Duff Said about John Strunk's willow bow... ;D It's nothing new..Lots of"marginal" woods work well if you have an open mind, and do a little research as opposed to regurgitating what everyone else said.. ::)
And I bet John's bow shoots better than the "typical" wood bow.... ;)
Rich, Made one decent willow bow, and will make another just because I've just been told doesn't work :o
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Rich, we went into this elsewhere. I apologize for my obvious mental deficiency evidenced by "regurgitating what every one else said." However, I would say that Tim has done more of the "research" that you speak of than anyone alive, so I would tend to listen to what he has to say. Aside from my feeble closed-minded digestion and re-vomitation of everybody else's ideas, I have also worked with trees and wood most of my life, and couldn't help but notice a few properties of different species of wood and form a few of my own opinions along the way. You make some excellent bows, and I respect your opinion even if you seem to take offense to mine. But; to recap what you don't seem to be reading: I never said that you couldn't make a bow from willow!!!!! I have no doubt that you can and will make one. I also have no doubt that John Strunk could make a bow out of willow, or balsawood for that matter, if he took a notion to. Hell, I saw the Mythbusters on TV make a crossbow that actually shot from newspaper and elastic from a pair of drawers. Would I want to rely on a newspaper-and underwear- bow for deer hunting? No. Would it be fun to make one as a challenge? Sure! From my "regurgitation" of Tim's info, you will notice that he did actually make a willow bow that shot pretty good. I am also positive that Russel could make a willow shooter. I'm pretty sure that if I set my mind to it, I could probably make a willow bow that would shoot, as could most bowyers with some experience under their belts. The point I am making, though, is that I wouldn't set people who are new to this up for a bunch of frustration by acting like willow is just as good of wood as hickory, osage, ash, elm, etc., to make your first, second or third bow from, because it simply ain't. If you can't possibly find any other wood, go for it! If you want to try to make a good willow bow as a personal challenge, more power to ya! I still wouldn't say to a beginner that willow is a good wood for bowmaking. We have lots of willow around here, and from doing plenty of tree work over the years, I can tell you that it is obviously a weak, brittle wood, weaker than pine, boxelder, silver maple, or almost anything else we have here. Different species of willow might have slightly different properties, and different climates might affect its performance, but most of us don't live in the desert. I might try to make a willer bow myself one of these days too, just for the helluvit; but I'll be wincing every time I pull it back, and I ain't taking it deer huntin'.
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Actually, boxelder suckers make fair bow wood.
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Hillbilly,Actually I don't take offense with yours or anyones bows, and I didn't mean you personally when I commented above..This type of commenting on woods has been going on long before the leatherwall evolved..It's meant in general terms...Heck I remember Gary Davis tell me ipe won't make a bow as I'm shooting a 58" 60#er at mojam right in front of him..six years ago..He isn't the only one, by a longshot..
I also know what Tim Baker wrote, and saw the pic of that willow bow..and that one willow bow isn't basis for a commentary of a wood, especially since there have been others which shine..I know Tim well and more than once has told me I couldn't get a bow out of a stave which now is a very quick chrononlogically speaking...
The Mojave Indians designed their bows as much to deal with the low humidity and heat of the region than the relative "weakness" of the wood..An osage bow wouldn't last very long if at all in those conditions...
The reality is its easy to joke about a woods quality, or lack therof, but when there are shooters out there of that same species..well it proves its just a joke..
I'll go cut another branch from the willow tree in our front yard, make a bow from it, and post some full draw pics here...I think it will be quite fun ;D
I know you have experience with trees, but I live where there is the greatest diversity of native and non-native species of anywhere in the US, and with most of these bowwoods our desert air produces a density in some of these woods which you won't find elsewhere..like willow.. ;)
Rich-
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Whose up for a all-willow bow contest? I'll have a willow selfbow posted in a couple months. By the way--I don't know anyone (myself especially) who doesn't feel an unpayable debt to Tim Baker for his research.
J. D. Duff
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i think im going to have a go at a willow bow ;) but first im going to use my oak. ;) so it may take me a few months to get to it, because i also will have to dry the willow.
ill photograph the whole making when i do it ;) even if it breaks ;D
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I've held some of those old Mojave bows in my hands. They are nice, really nice.
They are deflexed at the tips, long, and oval in cross section, maybe an inch and a half or a little less wide. They will kill anything.
And I don't understand the whole "no bow wood there" thing. there are a number of hardwoods that grow in the Colorado river basin, mesquite being really common among others. My guess is that Mojaves used willow because they liked long bows and willow grows big and strait. It is easier to work, too, they saved the mesquite for the war clubs.
They traded with other tribes, and if they found thier bows inadiquite they surly would have been trading for other staves.
To us "full spectrum" bowyery enthusiasts we think that is one wood is not as good as another then it is inferior. But if you have something that works in your situation, then you don't need to change. You can if you want, and it happens, not it is not needed.
Damon
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I read once in a book on American Indians, that some plains tribes used Willow, but they were sinew backed. Supposed to have been very good bows, as long as the weather held out.
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It is also worth to note, that what is good wood is dependent if you have:
a) bandsaw
b) Fiskars vesuri (Matchete like tool )
c) Sharp stone flint.
With the a) the 1st choise is naturally hickory or Osage.
With the c) it is worth thinking if you can live with willow or rowan...
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I just talked to John Strunk about his willow bow last night. The stave came from Idaho. He says it's 55" ntn, and 62# @ 26". No sinew backing. He has also made a bow out of a local Oregon willow and said it shot well. He took the weight down and gave it away. He said several times, "willow makes a nice bow." J. D. Duff
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I would be up to build a Willow bow if I can find some willow.We used to have a lot of it but we cleaned out around the ponds and I haven't noticed any lately,of course I haven't been looking.
Pappy
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I just talked to John Strunk about his willow bow last night. The stave came from Idaho. He says it's 55" ntn, and 62# @ 26". No sinew backing. He has also made a bow out of a local Oregon willow and said it shot well. He took the weight down and gave it away. He said several times, "willow makes a nice bow." J. D. Duff
That must be some drastically different willow compared to the stuff we have here. Amazing.
If he can use something like willow for a good bow, that is motivating enough for me to try to make a bow out of some of my own local low-density lumber. I'm making myself a boxelder bow.
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You can make a bow from almost any wood as long as you match the design with the wood charactoristics. If you have a bow type you want to make, find a wood that is compatable with that type of bow. If you have a specific wood you want to make a bow from, use a bow type or style that is appropriate for that woods specific charactoristics. Pat
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Pat B--I totally agree. I guess I'm just getting a lot more open-minded now that I've been trying more white woods. Much of the popular treatment of white woods so far is really incomplete. I am personally less interested in using woods that require very wide, long, rectangular limbs so when I started building bows I was guilty of ignoring a lot of white woods and missing out. The truth is, there are white woods that can be made into English-styled longbows without taking hardly any set--or even maintaining reflex. The only loss in style might be less of a D cross-section. I guess what I'm saying is, just because hickory and elm are best at 2" wide, doesn't mean all white woods are--and there are a lot of beginning bowyers who might be relieved to hear it. Oceanspray, Service berry and a few other shrubs that are local to me can be made less than an inch wide at normal lengths without taking an inch of string follow. Cascara, Crabapple, and vine maple can be made 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inches wide at normal lengths and high weights. The good news is, for people who like that narrower style, there are a lot of 'junk' woods that can handle the extra stress--they just don't have to spring for Osage or Yew every time they build a bow--Osage and Yew can be reserved for special bows.
Tim Baker said we were still learning--I sure am. It's getting more exciting every day.
By the way, Strunk's stave was 'Bibbs' willow (SP?).
J. D. Duff
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Experimentation is why we are where we are today. If ya don't know if it will work, try it!...or like Pappy said, make a minature bow out of the wood and see if it will work. I'm so spoiled with osage that I don't experiment enough. This winter I'll try to get more serious about "other" woods. Pat
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This topic is of particular intrest to me. Ive been planning to make a bow of a local "native" wood. We have a lot of stuff around but the willow is about the only one that I can say of a surety that the early settlers didn't bring in. There are some others like mesquite, scrub oak,and juniper but they grow more like bushes making it hard to get enough wood for a bow. Ive decided that willow is what I'm going to try and they usually have a diameter of 3" or less so I'm going to make a flat bow with a backing of plant fiber. Ive got a few ideas on backing material but that info will have to wait until a later time ???. Justin
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Justin,
I think there is something really special about building bows out of local material you cut yourself. For Pappy, that means a lot of Osage, Hickory, and Iron Wood. For me it means a little Yew and a dozen or so shrubs and small trees (half of which most people don't even know exist). Like Pat B says, we do need to expiriment--that's why we're here still, and why we havn't wiped out the world's population of Osage and Yew.
If you can find a way to build a really good bow out of a local willow, that may pave the way for another bowyer to go cut a piece of wood himself instead of being forced to build every bow out of lumber yard material.
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.
J. D. Duff
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Interesting discussion
I've seen a few fine examples of native bows which were made from a willow the indigenous folks referred to as, "moose rub", among other names.
Their selection of suitable willow is based on the length of the trunk and the character that already exists in the stock. Mind, this is from willow that grows in a far northern habitat on the fringes of the tundra where the wind and light cycles are pretty extreme.
The wood is sealed with pine sap mixed with wood ash - a hideous grey that probably protects the bare wood from UV light as much as it does moisture.
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Cheers Ratty!! ;) :)..
I´ve never made a bow out of willow, but keep in mind that there are SEVERAL short of willows out there mate (at least in Europe...).
I´ve eard that the one of the long hanging leaves "Salix babylonica":
http://thebegavalley.org.au/uploads/tx_steverplantgallery/Salix_babylonica_01_weeping%20willow.jpg
, isn´t any good for bow making but is better for natural string making (by peelling the bark in long strips...among other uses such as basketry etc...;)...).
In the other hand there are other kind of willows that there aren´t so bad for bow making even good for some people!! (I have to try one ;) ), "Salix Caprea" and "Salix Atrocinerea":
http://thebegavalley.org.au/uploads/tx_steverplantgallery/Salix_caprea_01_pussy%20willow_catkins.jpg
http://thebegavalley.org.au/uploads/tx_steverplantgallery/Salix_caprea_02_pussy%20willow_.jpg
These are the species I´m talking about and I´m sure that in your area (England) can find them without alot of effort!!
Eventhough, If you have White Oak, I´d go for that without doubt it firstly!!..:) ;)..
Hope this helps!!
Cheers..
Asier.
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navajo, pueblo, and anasazi bows were made from willow. generally for lack of a better wood growing in their territory. they generally made the bows unbacked and man sized in length. with STRING FOLLOW. the string follow won't let it shoot like an osage stave but is none the less a formidable weapon. 2 to4 inches of string follow was common.
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I will just share my one willow bow experience about 10 years ago. The log dried very fast in about 2 weeks I think. I roughed out a bow about 6 ft long and 4" wide, let it finish drying and it was only drawing about 35#. Ist time I took an almost full draw it popped in half like a cork no splinters just "popped" From that point on I classed it as a non bow wood. I don't know the species of willow but it was the lightest weakest wood I had ever seen in my life.
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It would be interesting to know the types of willow people have had luck with. The Southwestern Tribes used Coyote willow. I tried Peach leaf willow in a 4" wide pyramid. It took a ton of set. Acted like it was wet all the time. In Europe they use a certain strain of White Willow to make the bats for cricket.
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As far as a professional, well made bow goes, I'm not so sure about willow. But when I was a little kid, I made all kinds of bows out of the black willow growing on the banks of a lake near my house, and I had a blast. I'd like to try making one again, properly. They're pretty springy, and I always thought it might be a neat idea to try taking two staves with a more dramatic natural taper (as the trees I was taking my bowstaves from had a fair amount) and splicing them together at the thick ends - voila, a naturally tillered bow! I never quite got to that before my summer bowmaking season ended, and after that year, bows unfortunately fell by the wayside. Even not knowing anything about needing to try the wood before I started tillering (it was strip the bark and go for my first bows) resulted in reliable, tough bows at a low enough poundage to be good for kids (my best friend and I) and shot my goose feather arrows clean into the neighbors' property, which was plenty good for me.
This really makes me want to go back to the lake and have another go at it. I miss the pure joy of the bent stick, with the innocent pride of not knowing there was anything technically wrong with what I'd done. ::)