Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Prarie Bowyer on November 30, 2011, 04:26:55 am
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Stumbled on this new upload.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7E7zekzjOk
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Maybee that is my solution for a kayak bow. ? ?
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Thats a nice bow.
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Nice bow and cool video, however it seams unsafe to be slinging arrows @35meters with people down range ???
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That looks like a great turkey bow. I could stalk easy with that bow. I think I am going to have to make one how do you make the backing water proof. In the spring there is a lot of water in the form of dew and light rain in this area during spring turkey season. I was real surprised that he was shooting that bow with people walking in front of him.
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That's a great video....
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Excellent video. Thanks for sharing.
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great vid(tho i agree with the shooting with so many people so close by...)
have to say every time i see the footage of this fella shooting, or pix of ishi shooting, i am intrigued with their style.
have not tried holding and shooting a bow like that. but think i might take the little sinewed bow out today and give er a try.
sure wish i could get my hands on a piece of yew like that
thanks!
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Wow, I have to respectfully disagree about the video. Though it has some good info about the overall process, That is the worst sinew job I have ever seen. If you don't soak the sinew fibers and straighten them, they are just about useless, as far as the benefits that sinew can offer. I would never recommend this video as an example of how to sinew a bow. Please understand I am not trying to discredit anyone here. I just can't support this as a good method of sinewing a bow.
However it is a good video about fish bladder glue. ;)
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I have to agree with Keenan. That was good info on fish bladder glue, but a waste of sinew. Not only did he not soak the sinew, he didn't lay it down flat and smooth so the sinew isn't giving 100%. For those asking about waterproof, look at the end of the video. See how rough the sinew surface was. It will catch and hold a lot of moisture that way. If it was combed and laid flat it would be much better. A snakeskin over the top would provide a lot of water protection for it.
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me too, that is some of the sloppiest sinewing I've seen. I've never seen anyone put sinew on dry.
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Thanks for the info justin
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It has accured to me that if I am going to critique something that I should offer some alternate info as well. I am certainly not the best at sinewing a bow and I saw one recently that was a fantastic sinew job. However I am having a hard time remembering who's it was. So here are a few pics from some of the ones that I have done. Hopefully it will help show what we are talking about.
For sinew to be "At it's best" It should be soaked until limp. This allows it to stretch. When dry, it is shrunk up and will not shrink further unless re-soaked. So if the sinew is applied while dry it will not shrink and pull a bow into reflex. The reflex is only caused by the bow being braced at reflex. Also for optimal performance the strands need to be laying as straight as possible. That way, when it is under tension, the force is being applied to the sinew. It is extremely hard to get sinew to lay straight and flat unless it is soaked and pliable. Similar to trying to comb your hair dry vs. when wet. I generally soak the sinew in the glue until it becomes very limp like wet hair. Then I will flatten and squeeze out the excess glue. I do this several times before laying as straight as possible on the bow. I hope this helps and please understand I am just trying to show a way that I feel will help those learning to sinew.
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_4477-1.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_4476-1.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/IMG_4473.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/5276.jpg)
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c326/bornagainprimitve/5105.jpg)
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Yea I wasn't so concerned with the quality of the sinew job as the overall process and the size of the bow.
Question. Would artificial sinew, dewaxed, laid out with TB3 work well?
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For the amount of work that is required to dewax artificial sinew and given that it will not shrink like real sinew and is not nearly as strong, I would concider it a waste of energy and time. It would be easier to just back with linen and have the same effect. Most people that go to the effort to sinew a bow, do so to get the real strength benefit as well as protection of the back.
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Question. Would artificial sinew, dewaxed, laid out with TB3 work well?
Only if you are trying to prevent splinters. It will not pull it into reflex or help performance.
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i wasnt going to say a word about the sinew...i am glad some one did...i would hate to see a rookie watch that and try to do the same...even the natives did better work...i wish the old footage was still on youtube....
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Yep, sometimes old people just can't bite their tongue ::) ;)
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I get the feeling that someone read a passage in a book and assumed dry sinew was being used. No original I have ever seen with sinew backing looked that bad. But kudos to them for doing it, here's hoping they continue the journey.
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John; I started to get skeptical when I saw the Popsicle stixs and he didn't seem like he wanted to get his fingers sticky.
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Hey hey cmon guys. It's his first upload. We all make mistakes and learned stuff. I didn't post pics of mine but still. He's trying and learning. I don't know how many bows this guy has made. I applaud the effort and accept that he'll probably make better ones as he learns.
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Hey Guys. If you guys saw the original video, Homer didnt soak the sinew and did it the exact same way. The bow held its reflex so it did its job. Robert is my close friend, i wish I had been there to direct him on straightening the sinew, but honestly the original video was done the same way with a stick and without soaking the sinew in water prior to applying. I got to see the finished bow and even shoot it, it shot quite well. I wonder if soaking in water would have added any performance. I did enjoy the video, I think it was well executed, maybe he shouldve included some footage of the original where the guy is sinew backing it.
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Prarie, Please except my apology if I offended you or your friend. There is always a risk when we are endevering to show something we have learned and in todays world of internet, many things get posted that are first time experiments or first time projects. If it is, his first, I would be the eager to congratulate and also offer helpfull suggestions.
However this seemed as a tutorial of 'How to sinew a bow' and in the "Bowyers world" this method lacks much knowledge of sinew and the best methods of applying it. I have sinewed allot of bows and still have much to learn, Yet I am also open to learn new techniques as well. In fact a recent technique by James Parker is sounding very promissing and I am excited to hear more about it. Because this is coming from a man with years of horn bow sinewing with proven results.
Several people stated that it was a "great" video and therefore I expected a "great" demonstration of skills and technique. However I did feel a responsibility that new bowyers should know there are better methods then what was presented as a "How to" Video. We do Carry a responsibility in promoting bowyers skills by honesty and truth. Therefore I felt compelled to offer some hopefully,constructive criticism.
I saw the original video of Homer and felt the same way about the method back then. When I realized others are being taught this method as "The way it's supposed to be done" I had to say something.
Legionnaire, The video quality and execution were great. Pleasing and insiring individual. Great tutorial on the fish bladder glue. Just can't support the sinew method as "Great"
We are all here, to learn from one another. And I know that I learn more when people give honest and correct critique to what I do. I hope you can understand my intent.
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I don't know the guy. I'm just saying. . . :laugh: god know my first somethings are coming soon.
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I am shure glad you put it upset is made for a good learning session, and the way it was put together (video )I would like to see more in the future ;)
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Yea I wasn't so concerned with the quality of the sinew job as the overall process and the size of the bow.
ditto-tho ive only sinewed one bow, i was thinking along keenans lines about that.'
but the bow, thats what i was digging
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I don't think anybody need's to apologize or get buthurt about anything, it was a cool video and Keenan was right about the sinew job and thinking a newbie might think that is how to sinew a bow, but at least he got a shooter out of it, I don't think anyone was attacking the guy, Bub
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no attacking here...maybe the next time i or some one else does sinew backing we could do a video.....i will say the video part was great...he could a in depth video on the whole fish glue prosses....that would be cool and very few people know how to do it....john fish
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Great video. Could inspire someone who happens across it.
As someone who is about to attempt his first sinew job, I immediately said to my wife, "that is not how I am going to do it", when I watched him lay the dry, curly sinew in the glue. I think most who are attempting their first sinew job are going to do a little bit of research and draw from multiple sources, especially when sinew seems hard to come by for most who are just getting started.
All that stuff aside: Does anyone know where to find that original Yurok bow video that is referenced throughout this video? I watched it several times on youtube when I first discovered it just a couple of weeks ago, and now it says the video is private...? Anyone know who originally posted it? I would really like to get a copy of this video or at least be able to access it on youtube again.
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...maybe the next time i or some one else does sinew backing we could do a video.....i will say the video part was great...he could a in depth video on the whole fish glue prosses....that would be cool and very few people know how to do it....john fish
I don't know, I just sinew'd a bow and there's no way I could have touched a camera through it. I was sticking to absolutely everything before I was done. You'd about have to have a cameraman to pull it off. There's a great example of sinewing a bow on youtube, search for korean horn bow. There's a 3 part video , the title is "Archery Korean Bow Making", the sinewing is in part 2 at 4:50. The pile of sinew they have prepared and the length of it is amazing. I watched it again before I did this bow, but I didn't take the time to comb out the wet sinew the way he did. It's going to be under snakeskin.
I watched the video and enjoyed it a lot.
George
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Hi Everybody,
Allow me to introduce myself, my name is Robert, I live in northern california and I'm new here on primitive archer, but i've been building bows for about 2 years now. I'm glad that you were all interested in my video about the Klamath Style Yew Bow, it was a lot of fun to make. I appreciate all of the criticisms and compliments alike!
Firstly, I'd like to say that this video is not intended to be a How-To video, I don't think I'd be qualified to make such a video seeing as I'm only a beginner. It was however intended to be a small experimental archaeology piece; an attempt to mimic old Homer Coopers techniques as best as I am capable only for the sake of my own curiosity about native american composite bow construction.
I learned a great deal in making this bow, especially in regards to the properties of sinew, which I see has generated a bit of discussion here as well. In my opinion this is not the best method of sinewing a bow, for several reasons. I much prefer to lay wet sinew out on a board, comb it parallell and brush the glue onto it before applying it- like korean hornbowyers. It does appear to be accurate though, ethnographically speaking atleast. You can see sinews being applied with a small flat stick from seconds 23-33 at the beginning of the video.
I found this sinewing method very difficult to use because the dry sinews were still stiff and therefore very difficult to straighten or neaten. Furthermore, since they only absorbed the moisture from the glue, they did very little shrinking as the bow seasoned. This, I propose, explains why the Yurok felt it necessary to string the bows backward during the application if the sinew- the reflex had to be induced with the string rather than with the sinew drying. While it may not have been the optimal sinewing method, and my inexperience with this technique made it most unattractive, the backing was still very successful in my opinion. After seasoning the bow held 4.5 inches of reflex! After having shot around 200 arrows the bow has taken no set and has even retained reflex in the limbs. This is of course granted I've only taken it to a 19" so far where it pulls 40lbs.
Again thanks for watching, I hope you guys enjoyed the video.
Robert
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Hey robert, welcome to primitive archer....and thanks for being a cool customer being under fire and calmly explaining yourself...that's a +1 in my book to good character ;)....if anyone who had seen this on paleoplanet where you originaly posted it then everyone would've known your intentions with the video. I remained silent cus I knew Cesar would see this and prob let ya know,if not see it yourself. But again thanks for manning up and being wise with your well chosen words :)
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Welcome, Robert. That explains a lot. I thought it was a How-To video also, that's what generated my criticism. Looking forward to seeing more of your bows.
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Robert welcome to PA !!
I think you will enjoy your time here and fit in nicely!
I enjoy watching folks do pa as they see it .
some times we learn things that where right in front of us all along but we are blind to them, that does not necessarily make them right or wrong ,but often usefull !!
Thanks for sharing with us !
We look forward to more from you !
Guy
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Paleo Ninja~ Thanks for weighing in! Welcome!
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Robert, Welcome on board. I applaud your efforts as well as your explanation. I definitely remember my first sinew job and how difficult it was. ::) For you to do a video as well on your first is an accomplishment. The video quality and your presentation was very professional and inspirational as well.
The method that you just described for wet/comb method is what I was referring to as a method that will yield better results. I'm very glad that you understood my critique and I'm also glad that you were compelled to log in and give your input. We look forward to seeing more of your work. The NA sinew backed shorties are my favorites to build as I live in Oregon and have allot of Yew and Juniper locally. You have a good group of bowyers down in your area and It's my heart to get down that way for a rendezvous some day. Thanks again for your response, Keenan
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If you guys saw the original video, Homer didnt soak the sinew and did it the exact same way.
That leads me back to my post. I wonder if the Klamath wetted their sinew and Homer wasn't aware of that, making an error of translation so to speak. I just can't imagine that those people using sinew in everyday life for generations and generations were not aware of it's most endearing property!
But this is 'experiential archeology' at it's purest. And that is, after all, a great deal of why we all are here discussing this issue.
I did notice everyone here has noted what a wicked little bow it turned out to be! It would be a long line of guys waiting for their turn to shoot it and a short line of guys lining up to be shot at with it!!!
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JWH,brings up a point of contention,that i have had ,since i first saw that video,some time ago.No slight against Roberts use of the tecnique,as thats what he was lead to believe was the authentic way to do it.I have never seen a vintage bow from that region,or any other region,that used sinew backed bows,that would lead me to believe that a dry sinew job,had been used.I just dont think old Homer remembered this step correctly,or was really never taught this step and was just wingin it as he whent.
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Cool video! I too would like to see the fish bladder video ;D
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Im glad to see you here Robert. I would be interested to see a whole video on making the fish bladder glue.
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JWH,brings up a point of contention,that i have had ,since i first saw that video,some time ago.No slight against Roberts use of the technique,as thats what he was lead to believe was the authentic way to do it.I have never seen a vintage bow from that region,or any other region,that used sinew backed bows,that would lead me to believe that a dry sinew job,had been used.I just dint think old Homer remembered this step correctly,or was really never taught this step and was just wingin it as he went.
Traxx I think you are right. I have studied several museum and a few very old NA bows that have been passed down and the sinew had been very meticulously done. I know that many would chew the sinew to soften and wet. I have also tried the method of using an antler to press in the fibers and though it did help somewhat, I now just use the fingers to gently press it into the wood.
A few years ago I met a very old woman that I think was Northern Piaute. She had heard that I made NA bows and reached up on top of her cabinet and pulled down a few bows. My jaw dropped as she explained that they had been passed down through the generations. One was around 40" sinew backed and painted. "adult bow" and then she pulled down a very small (about 24") childs bow. As well as a bunch of dart tipped arrows. I wanted to go back with my camera, but that was back when I was going through all the surgeries. Her old phone number is not valid and she no longer lives there. (Bummer) What I do remember is that the sinew was very smooth and the strings were sinew as well. I think it would be near impossible to make a dry sinew string.
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Maybee that is my solution for a kayak bow. ? ?
What if the sinew got wet it would all fall off.
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Here's a picture of the bow painted. All of the lose fibers have been sanded away, and the bow has been covered with a geometric triangular pattern that I made up, but is based off of other northwestern style bow motifs.
Some of you expressed an interest in a more detailed video about the process of Fish Bladder Glue production. However, since I already have a great deal of fish glue and it unfortunately carries a $120per pound price tag, I don't plan to make it again within the next year. Instead I can execute the exact same process on deer sinew and make a similar video although I'm sure most of you already know how to do this so it may be waisted effort. If there are people who would find it informative though, I wouldn't mind at all.
Robert
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A few more pics
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Nice to finally see it finished. ) thanks for posting Robert :D
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I agree looks nice finished up! Nice paint job! I wouldnt mind the video on sinew glue, I always like videos on these subjects :D
Josh
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as previosuly stated i did enjoy this video a great deal.
what really bums me out is the fact the original vids with homer are no longer available to view.
really bummed the owner of these vids made them private.
regardless of the methods used, they were a valuable resource.
and a delight to watch.
wish there was some way to contact the owner and ask them to reconsider...
btw the finished bow is might fine looking!
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Love yewr Bow PaleoNinja!
And your video content and quality was Excellent!
As a new guy myself, I'd vote (YES!) to a Sinew Glue build along video!
Done a lot of reading on the subject but have yet to put it to the test.
Best Regards!
-gus
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I still want to shoot that bow! Nice paintjob.
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I really like that! I have a short yew stave and that's on my "to do" list.
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That is a nice bow. I would like to see a sinew glue video also.
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Just in case it interests anyone Gary Davis does a sinew demonstration every year at the Kalamazoo Mi. archery expo ! (Jan. 27-29 2012)
You can watch and get your questions answered by a very knowledgeable person !
Maybe I'll see ya there !
Guy
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Hi Guys,
I managed to get my hands on a Chronometer in order to do some testing on the Yew Bow.
On the very first test shot I took, the Phragmites arrow I was using broke, because the Bale in the laboratory was very hard and I was shooting from close up. So we only got one chrono reading with a 403 grain arrow. We had taken shots on the chrono before and after and it was being consistent and reliable. In the end the Bow came in at 40lbs at 20 inches, it still retains reflex when unstrung.
217 FPS 8)
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I would point out that if Homer was the last surviving practitioner, and a good hundred years past when the craft was commonplace, it's a pretty easy assumption to make, that some construction details may have been lost. In the small snippet of video where we do see him applying the dry sinew, into the thick glue, he seemed to be doing a good job keeping it straight. I understand that Ishi dampened the sinew with saliva, which also wouldn't be as effective as soaking in glue, and wringing the bundle out. I'm just saying that we, as people, forget how to do things pretty quickly after the practice of them falls out of fashion. My own father grew up farming and logging with draft horses and learned carpentry with no power tools; I remember watching him build double hung windows from scratch. I barely know which end of a horse is which.
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I hate to be the barer of bad news, but your chronograph has problems. There are enough guys who have been building and testing thousands of bows for us to know that that speed isn't even close to possible with this bow. 165 would be miracle out of this bow and draw length. 150 would be more believable.
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Even 150 would be hard to believe but then it's easy to overdraw when testing especially when you are testing a bow with a draw that is not your normal draw length.
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That bow still fires nice, don't count on the sinews holding up though.