Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Cave Men only "Oooga Booga" => Topic started by: swamp monkey on December 20, 2011, 05:49:57 pm
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My wife surprised me early with a replica winged bannerstone for Christmas. I immediately started looking through resources to assemble a replica. For a shaft I used an ash sapling that looked like it needed to be made into something. It had been cut/seasoned for just such an occasion. The hole one the banner stone was 13 mm so my shaft had to be real close. I used a spoke shave and curved cabinet scraper to clean the stick up.
The way I did this was to work the stick through from the handle toward the spur end. That way I could keep it thicker where I wanted to stop it from moving further forward. I did not want to fight momentum which might cause this to slide forward. I wonder if Archaic people did the same?. Once that was done I crafted a spur out of a white-tail deer antler tine and then worked on the handle from a large base. Both received a 13 mm hole. The hole in the handle was 2.5 inches deep. The hole in the spur was more like 1 inch and some change. Both fit together nicely and were glued in place.
I have no idea if my shaft was long enough or too long. The stick definitely has a flex to it. It will take some getting used to. It felt heavy to me when throwing. I called it the "bison stalker". I am so tickled I may sleep with this smile on my face. Now I need to make a display rack!
THIS IS TOO COOL!
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This atlatl was made in line with the finds form Indian Knoll Kentucky. This is the site that helped identify the proper placement and use of a bannerstones.
A few more pix.
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That sucker is interesting... How does it throw with that much weight and resistance towards the tip.... I personally like my atlatls very light and narrow so I can achieve a better "flick"....
Jon
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that's pretty cool looking, but look's like it would ad alot of resistance, Bub
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Oh it adds plenty of weight. A buddy of mine had a similar replica and let me use it a couple of years back. I thought it was heavy and gave it back so I didn't hurt myself. After a few shots in the rain today, I was convinced this one is also heavy. You would not want to give a huge heave on this bad boy! I may have the main shaft a bit too long. I am contemplating making a similar version with a shorter wooden shaft and then do some comparison shooting. I also plan to make a third that has no stone at all and see how that all works. After reading up on Indian Knoll's atlatls I am convinced this the purpose of a bannerstone- on the atlatl shaft. Now were they just for show or were they functional is another question. Bob Perkins posted an article on line a few years back that suggests that wings help reduce the swishing noise volume and sound frequency so it is lower. A silencer of sorts. Stealth technology according to him.
As heavy as this feels I have come to realize there is a lot I do not know. I made a replica of an atlatl found at Council Hill Nevada and came to the conclusion that it was not a very good thrower. It was about 20 inches long but was not more than 7/16" wide and the spur was terribly short. My darts would barely fit on the spur. Then a fellow atlatl enthusiast came to an event with these little 3-4 foot long darts. They were almost arrows, and they worked GREAT in a smaller, thinner atlatl. I tried the Council Hill replica and it was a dream boat to use. The atlatl was fine. I just needed lower mass darts. My six feet long river cane darts were mammoth in size by comparison. It never occurred to me to adjust my dart. I will see if I can dig up a photo of that thrower to post.
Does this winged bannerstone atlatl seem heavy? yeah. Do I understand why? no. Will I? If I keep workin' on it I might. ;) Feel free give me some of your thoughts. I love the exchange.
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WOW!
That is Bleeping Awesome in appearance!
And its beautiful too!
:)
-gus
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Man that thing looks great.
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8) great job, dpgratz
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I re-read a couple of articles by Bob Perkins and found a new article showing the Indian knoll atlatls in context. The Indian Knoll sites were the most convincing. The spur handle and bannerstones were all in place with a dark stain where the shaft and sinew had rotted away. The space between all three looks less like my Bison Stalker and more like the Elk Annihilator (winged atlatl ver. 2.0 thread). Perkins indicates that weighted atlatls need to be shorter. Based on archeological findings as well as comparisons on which ones feel more comfortable, I tend to agree. However, I'm wound tight with the notion of doing some experiments for myself. I will report back later.
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My son and a classmate did a science fair project using this atlatl and one that was similar but without a bannerstone. Below are the stats. I know this is not hard core science that will settle any arguments but it makes me want to do some more experimentation. The atlatl with no banner stone weighed 220 grams and the atlatl with a bannerstone weighed 440 grams.
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Interesting. Makes me wonder even more about he bannerstone if performance was reduced by 25% when they were used. Maybe noise reduction Like you said??? Yes, more experiments are needed!! Another good reason to get out int he yard and through spears! :)
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I had always thought the banner stone moved back and forth along the shaft. It being forward on the shaft in the initial start of the throw for balance, then slideing toward the rear as the atlatl was reaching it's maximum arc, enough to slightly flex the shove before it unloaded.
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Larry Kinsella believes it is there for counter balance. When holding the dart and atlatl without a bannerstone "at the ready" position the muscles use like 85% more muscle activity to hold it and keep it "at the ready" position than with a bannertone in place. Also a bannerstone that moves back and for will likely break. Had it happen to me. Moved just a little and broke clean in two. Maybe thats why we don't find many whole ones tho.
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I learned through direct experimentation that igneous stones can chip easily if dropped or from an unintended strike from a hard object. The point is you need to take care of igneous objects and use them according to the owner's manual. ;). Broken bannerstones could occur if a shaft got wet and frozen, from being dropped or even side slapping a tree or rock.
This Is ironic considering the difficulty in crafting these objects. Nature has a sense of humor.
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Been thinking about the whole notion of how this bannerstone/atlatl system works. I think I am going to craft some hardwood spears that weigh more than my cane spears. Larry Kinsella did this and swears by it. I would like to try it for myself to see how it works. It will be interesting to see if it feels better or performs better/ worse.
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I had always thought the banner stone moved back and forth along the shaft. It being forward on the shaft in the initial start of the throw for balance, then slideing toward the rear as the atlatl was reaching it's maximum arc, enough to slightly flex the shove before it unloaded.
Mullet, I have been researching shell bannerstones at Indian Knoll Kentucky. In the process I found that a number of them had black asphaltum on the stones which was cleaned off by the workers who did the dig. Larry Kinsella tried using this naturally occurring adhesive to attach a banner stone and said it was nearly impossible to get off when he tried to do so - even with heat.
My point her is sliding is not something I think bannerstones did or we're intended to do. I think it puts the stone at risk and would risk racket. I am certain you know how much we hunters hate racket.
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Pure conjecture but shouldn't the weight of the stone correlate proportionately to the weight of dart? Like a fly rod! You wouldn't budge a log with a fly swatter, and wouldn't drive a chopstick very far with a 9 lb sledge.
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Lost Arrow, I think you nailed it. I am becoming convinced more and more every year that the atlatl and dart need to be matched. Thinking that all spears have to be the same is faulty.
Mass needs to be considered for the atlatl AND the dart.
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And I would think the size of game. Heavy for giant ground sloth( close quarters ) and light and fast for passenger pigeons ! ;)