Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: coaster500 on December 31, 2011, 12:33:24 pm
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My first stab at a bow was in August it was a Mulberry stave that a blind man could have worked. This ring chasing that I hear a bunch of folks saying is their favorite part is very difficult for me, even on that perfect stave. I wear tri-focals and have a condition wear I have some floaters in the viscous material in my eyes. It's kind of like when you get punched and see stars but mine don't go away? I've got an Osage stave and started to work on it last night and it is very hard for me to work the back down and I'm about three rings into it.
Is there some special trick I can use to better separate the rings visually for these messed up eyes? They may be very clear to some of you but they are very hard to see for me.
The grain on the back of this stave is faint also and it will be hard to fallow for the layout.
I’m trying but may have to stick to white woods with these eyes.
70" X 1 1/2 X 2 1/4 and 2 1/4"s thick
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/osage%20bow%20project/Osagechasingthering003.jpg)
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/osage%20bow%20project/Osagechasingthering002.jpg)
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/osage%20bow%20project/Osagechasingthering004.jpg)
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Hi Coaster,
I am not a ring chasing expert but have done enough to possibility offer a little help. Do you have a picture of the end of the stave showing the early/ late wood ratio and thickness of the rings?
Chasing a ring is not only done by sight but feel along with a little sound. Appears you have the sapwood removed so that's a help. It takes really good lighting to see what you are doing regardless of how well you see. The best lighting is the sun, but when working inside I have a lamp that I assemble over top of my work so that I can change the lighting angle as needed.
I also use a drawknife to chase a ring and then smaller scrapers to clean up the back starting from one tip and then moving the entire length of the stave. Some will start in the center and move out to the tips. Normally takes me around 20 mins. to chase one.
A lot of times that top ring as with any heartwood will not have a very defined ring. Its always a good idea to drop one down under the heartwood to ensure you have a complete ring the full length of the stave.
About all that I can offer.
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dont have any real sight issue other than older eyes that dont see up close as well as past times(wear cheap reading glasses to work on bows). that said, i do have to have really good light to see the rings. and it has to be at the right angle to the wood. as i work down the stave i often have to either adjust the light or the stave angle to continue being able to see what im doing. good light, thats the key for me. good luck!
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Different light sources also make a difference. You'll notice a difference in how the rings appear between flourescent and incandescent light sources. Utilizing maybe an overhead flourescent along with an incandescent desk lamp can help. Also, looking down the stave from opposite ends. There is a distinct sound the early, weaker, spring growth makes. It sounds kind of like corn flakes crunching when you are into it. It is less apparent with tighter growth ringed osage, however.
What might also help is to mark your ring layer with a pencil, when you see it as you advance down the length of the stave. Sometimes, the difference in colors can be slight and by marking the ring with a pencil, you can move back into your working position without losing sight of the ring. For both thick and thin ringed osage a scraper is an invaluable tool when chasing a ring. Especially for the thinner ringed staves you can get close with the draw knife and use the scraper for the "clean-up" work. For difficult, humpy-bumpy, snakey staves I've chased entire rings solely with a scraper. Good Luck!
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Once I get to a clear back ring I use a centering tool to find the center line of the stave then mark every 4" to 6" out the stave. At each of these points I mark either side of the center line to eventually get my limb profile. This tool follows the outside edges of the split out stave. Sometimes I will cant the tool to the right, then to the left to get a good center line. It the lines seperate just draw a line between them (average it out) for the center line.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/gizmomulti-use4.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/gizmomulti-use5.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/gizmomulti-use2.jpg)
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Chasing your first ring just plain sucks is all I can say right now. I love it now . It also doesn't help if you have thin rings for the first time if that's the case.
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Older gentelman I used to know had a trick.
He would run dust on the area he was working . It have him enough contrast to see the ring edge. He would just wipe his had on a shelf in his shop then wipe that on the area he was working.
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What Bevan said gave me an idea. What if you rub some olive oil or something like that onto the back? That might highlight the boundaries between the growth rings. Anything to add contrast I guess.
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I think sunlight is by far the best light to chase your first ring. When I'm teaching somebody to chase their first ring we normally go outside if we can. Otherwise, I use a pedestel light I can move around the vise until the light is best. Since I'm usually overheated chasing a ring, I wipe sweat off my arms on the ring boundary if I'm having trouble seeing it. But, I think the best way to chase your first ring is to do it with somebody who's done it a lot. When you have a question you can ask and by the time you finish your bow it won't be so hard. I have no idea how many people I've taken through that process. Good memories.
George
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I agree George, it is amazing what even a few minutes with someone's help on the first stave to help get the 'feel' and 'ear'.
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Wow I have been at work and could not respond to this thread.
Thank you for all the help!!!
gmc... I don't have a setup to work outside right now and the feel touch will have to develop with time I guess..
sadiejane... I'll pick up a pair of Magnifying glasses at the drug store today, we'll see :)
MWirwiki... I've got a cheap clamp on incandescent light I'll try in combination with the florescent I have now. I am grateful that this stave is fairly smooth and without to many humps and bumps. I actually started on a different stave with many more hills and valleys. I put it away for another day because I could not make it happen for now.
Pat that's a sweet tool and looks pretty simple to build....
Slackbunny, Bevan.... I didn't try dust or oil but i did try a damp cloth wipe and it did help a bit...
George, I need to fly one of you guys out for a how to lesson :)
Blackhawk.... It is frustrating but with all the help form you folks I've got to figure this out :)
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Coaster...have a looksy here if you haven't seen it yet...good stuff
http://peteward.com/Articles/Ferret.osage.buildalong1.htm
And I wont even mention how many hours it took me to chase my first ring. Because my first attempt at a bow was with an osage stave(and not the prettiest either),and my first time learning how to use a draw knife and scrapers.....not a good mix of firsts together at once... :laugh:....I feel your pain brother. :'( after that experience I hated chasing rings and osage....boy how things have changed... ;D
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Here's ring chasing info. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
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Blackhawk... That's good info on Pete Wards page :)
Professor Jawge you're in my favorites !!
Thanks again
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Easiest way for me to chase a ring is to simply have less ring to chase. I shape the sides close to dimensions as soon as possible, and then work from both sides to the middle chasing the ring........Art
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And I wont even mention how many hours it took me to chase my first ring. Because my first attempt at a bow was with an osage stave(and not the prettiest either),and my first time learning how to use a draw knife and scrapers.....not a good mix of firsts together at once... :laugh:....I feel your pain brother. :'( after that experience I hated chasing rings and osage....boy how things have changed... ;D
now thats funny...had a similar experience with my first osage stave-even tho it was straight and clean. when my buds, who have been doing this for years, were talking about chasing a ring being their fav part of making an osage bow, i thought they were nuts. and yes, my how things have changed! (with just a very few bows!)
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Using a cabinet scraper along with the draw knife will help a lot visualy, I usually do about 8 or 10 inches then polish it up with my scraper, seems to jump right out at you once you have cleaned it up.
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Art it's to late for that now but that would be alot less wood to remove. Maybe next time :)
sadiejane.. The longer I did it the easier it got but still tough for me. As far a being the favorite part well not yet :(
I think this was the hardest thing I've done with regards to bow building but towards the end it did start to get easier. About two thirds of the way into it I started removing wood from the outside edges as it made it less likely for me to kill another ring if it was defined and established on an edge that would ultimately be waste wood. The cheap drugstore glasses helped and the sunlight coming through the back door in the early morning really made it much easier for me? Towards the end you are right there is a sort of feel to this whole thing and that is great when your vision is not so good. I also discovered that my draw knife makes an excellent scraper and makes for very controled wood removal used this way instead of just the cutting edge. It’s not the best for the hill and dale spots but on the reasonably straight stuff it works great. I know for many of you my rants must sound like a babe in the woods but that’s pretty much correct.
Looks pretty good but again these eyes !!
http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/osage%20bow%20project/?albumview=slideshow
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/osage%20bow%20project/Osagechasingtheringandfoundone003.jpg)
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/osage%20bow%20project/Osagechasingtheringandfoundone002.jpg)
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/osage%20bow%20project/Osagechasingtheringandfoundone001.jpg)
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One more question?
This stave is 10 months old. It was seal and dried for that amount of time. I have no way of knowing if it is dry enough to work into a bow but it seems dry? After chasing the ring and squaring the ends should I continue to work it? Rough out a bow or reseal it and allow more drying time?
Thanks again
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Id reseal the ends and the whole back,and use shellac. And you can reduce it down to a stiff floor tiller if you want,but then I would wait a few more months before bending over the tree.
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I agree on the sealing and shellac is the way to go when you have the back ring done. It removes easily when you get ready to finish. I would take it to floor tiller and bring it in the house. If your furnace is running it'll dry pretty quickly indoors. A few weeks inside and you could finish it if you want. It looks like you did a very nice job on that ring chasing. Also, it has nice thick rings. Should make a good bow.
Good luck,
George
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Pretty much any kind of tape will do to seal the back at this point. I like that blue painter's tape myself. Do like George suggested and store inside the house, preferrably flat. After a week or two you can get 'er bending if you like. If you plan on any heat treating maybe a little longer will be better.
Nice growth rings! I would use the thicker ringed end for the lower limb myself. That's the stump end.
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Ok, I drew a center line before I put shellac on it but as I was drawing it I noticed this. It's a crack in the stave. If I make a 64" bow the crack will be 100% in the handle and fade (4" handle and 2" fades). It's 30"s from one end of the bow but it's the knotty end. I was hoping to deal with just one knot now I have to deal with three? The other end of the stave has no knots at all. Oh well?
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/osage%20bow%20project/Osagechasingtheringandfoundone001-2.jpg)
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Knot #1
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/osage%20bow%20project/Osagechasingtheringandfoundone002-2.jpg)
Knot #2
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/osage%20bow%20project/Osagechasingtheringandfoundone003-2.jpg)
knot #3
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/osage%20bow%20project/Osagechasingtheringandfoundone004-1.jpg)
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"This ring chasing that I hear a bunch of folks saying is their favorite part"
Who says that? (hahaha)
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Those checks wouldn't be a problem even if they were in the center of the limb,let alone being in the handle area....there fine. And if your wood checked that fast then id def wait longer than a few weeks as a couple other folks suggested bending it.
Yup just follow those grain lines...that knot at the end will be gone n wont matter if grain is slightly violated as it'll be stiff.
Knot 3 will be fine and in the bow...and knot 2 should prob b in the limb,depends how wide your stave is and where the knot is in the limb. Just follow the grain around that knot.
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Hmm, the question of how dry your stave is has been answered, it isn't very dry. Blackhawk's right. I have gotten to the point where I seal the back the minute I finish it. I've had 2 or 3 do that this year. I had one stave wet enough that by the time I had gotten 2 or 3 feet of the back finished, the first part was already checking. That was a green one, but still... Hadn't had that happen before to me.
George
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From the looks of his pics it looks like the sapwood was removed long before Coaster started chasing a ring. So I bet that crack was already there and the varnish highlighted it. Never the less, and as was mentioned, that crack isn't a problem. Just fill with some super glue when you're ready to start bending.........Art
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Coaster: Nice job chasing that ring! If I may, I'd like to suggest a redraw on a couple of your lines. Keep in mind though, no two people would draw exactly the same line on any given stave. Even you would draw a different line if you erased an original and redrew. Especially on Knot 3, I would besect it and place it in the center of the limb.
Also, maybe you can cheat your line a bit to place that "crack" in the center of the limb.
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kip all good advise ya got on there also rember to try that lil trick i told ya about haha hold it in the sun light and ull see what i mean also i agree that one aint near dry was me id set it in a corner for a year let it dry how s that yew comin ? brock
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Toomanyknots I’m with you but just what I hear :o
Blackhawk if the crack is ok in the middle of the limb I could get rid of two of the knots because the other end of the stave is pristine? Knot #3 would be the only one in the bow.
George I not sure how dry it was or is and I’m not sure if the crack was already there or opened up when I went to work on it. I sealed it back up and I’ll decide what to do later.
Art most of the sapwood was removed but I still don’t know when it cracked. I’ll reduce it closer to bow dimensions and let it dry in my man closet drying racks :)
Matt if I start from the other end I will only have knot #3 to deal with and I will center it in the limb as you suggest.
Hey Brock, you’re right tons of good info here and in a pm or two from a bcbull…. The little Yew bow is coming along nice. I”m still trying to decide if I want to sinew it or not. Just glued some walnut burl tip on it and shot it a bit today. Shoots pretty good like it is? We’ll see??? For now it’s keeping the Osage stave company in my drying racks :laugh:
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c210/coaster500/osage%20bow%20project/Osagechasingtheringandfoundone006-1.jpg)
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kip like i was sayin thats saps a heck of a lot stronger n the rawhide is but if it shoot s good leave it as is if ur that worried about the spot just put a lil rawhide patch there and feather it out yews tough stuff lol brock
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You would have seen that crack for sure while you ran the draw knife. They can open up in a heartbeat if the wood is still damp. But, cracks like that one can be ignored as long as they don't run out to the limb edge. Knots that size can pretty much be ignored unless they have cracks or are right in the limb efge. You can also ignore a knot that close to the limb tip as the bow will not be bending there. I think you're in great shape. It really is a beautiul stave.
George
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As has been said have no fears about the check. just fill with superglue and the back is the best place for a check as under tension it closes up. Same with the knots you can pretty much forget about them, osage knots are normally sound and can take plenty of compression.
If your rings weren't so thick (good thing!) then you could chase next ring down to get past the check if you really wanted to.
I would get it to floor tiller and then set aside in your house to dry for a couple of weeks.
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Coaster
That stave may have come from me. If it is thick enough I would chase another ring on it and see if it goes away. Like the others said I don't think it would be a problem any way. If it does let me know and I will get you another one. I am wondering if that check wasn't already there but showed up when you put something wet on the back. Dean
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Brock since it’s for the wife and only 30#s or so I think it will be strong enough without the rawhide… Yewis sure a pleasure to work cuts like butter…
George, I got it from Dean and told him I needed a blind man newbie stave and he did a great job!!
Mike, big rings are a good thing for me and these eyes… if they hadn’t been I’d be toast!!
Dean it may or may not have been there but it’s a great stave and I will give it my best shot to make a bow. Thank you though for your most generous offer but I think if this nice piece of wood don’t make a bow it’s driver error.