Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: vinemaplebows on February 12, 2012, 03:42:29 pm
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Fruit woods, ocean spray, hawthorn are woods that are difficult to dry....But I have discovered that by submerging the wood in water for up to a month decreases the cracking of the wood considerably. Native americans use to put their staves in creeks for a length of time to remove "saps" if I remember right. I do not believe that this is true, as saps are not water soluble if they are a true sap.
What I believe truly happens is that inner heart wood is dryer than wood closer to the sap, therefore there is a dramatic curve in the drying from internal wood compared to wood closer to the cambium layer (where moisture is transfered to the tree or shrub) By submerging the wood in water till it is totally saturated the drying process is then equilized, and therefore less cracking accurs.
I also have a wood turner that has imformed me that to decrease cracking in wood boil it,(whole stave) I know this is not practical for most people, but would be a interesting experiment.
Brian
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Hmm, that's an interesting theory. I'm going to have to try that out.
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this is an interesting topic..in some deep thinking about seasoning wood..i talked to josh about seasoning wood in salt water since he lives on the coast...and to see if he gets a differant kind of responce out of the wood...who knows maybe i am just thinking to hard..LOL...john
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ive submerged hickory for 2 weeks. seems to be drying pretty well. i sealed it before i submerged it and when it came out the ends checked slightly. i cut the ends and resealed just to see how deep the cracks went. they didnt go in more than 1/16. otherwise they have been drying well and evenly without wanting to curve and twist nearly as bad.
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Lone,
Try 30 days, bet it will go even better... ;)
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.But I have discovered that by submerging the wood in water for up to a month decreases the cracking of the wood considerably. Native americans use to put their staves in creeks for a length of time to remove "saps" if I remember right. I do not believe that this is true, as saps are not water soluble if they are a true sap.
ive heard something similar. ive read that they would be submerged under the mud next to or in the creek. i dont really recall the amount of time. it would be interesting to cut a "control" stave and have "A" in the stream submerged. "B" buried next to creek. and "C" buried in creek......and if you wanted to get a wide range of results do A-C with salt water.
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That does make sense Brian, I just harvested and roughed out a stave this afternoon and I thought the difference between sapwood and heartwood moisture was dramatic. Maybe if one would seal a stave thoroughly on all its sides for a certain time, inner moisture would equilibrate between heart- and sapwood and if the stave would then be split it would dry more evenly. Just a thought, interesting subject for sure.
Cheers!
Matt
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I cut tons of fire wood, logs can sit on the ground for yrs, and the centers on wood cut 3-5 yrs earlier has dry centers....burnable. I think the wood needs to be submerged in water to "force" water back into the fibers through exposure after the wood has been split. On the other hand small diameter wood up to 3" I think if fully submerged would be fine, and that has been my expirience with hawthorn and ocean spray anyways..I have a huge pool I hate that I have found a use for!
Brian
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This is interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Cipriano
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Ill have to try this with a chunk of ocean spray thanks VineMaplebows I was watching a tv show that john strunk did allong time ago I think it was called the Northwest hunter and he took two guys out into the woods and harvested VM and made bows from it, he mentioned in that video about submerging the staves in a creek for a month or so and coming back and getting it. I will have to ask him about it and get his take on it.
Blacktail I still havent tried the salt water submersion yet but I will, I was down at the dock about a week ago and found a spot I cant secure the stave to that would work well i think. I went out and got some Vine Maple today and plan on going out again in the next day or two so I will set one aside for this.
Bryce the problem I see with doing multiple staves is it wouldnt be a very accurate test as every piece of wood is different :-\ wish we had one someone who knew more about it, interesting indeed :)
Josh
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i was thinking more of hacking up the same stave into 4 pieces.
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i was thinking more of hacking up the same stave into 4 pieces.
It is a good idea and i am sure there is plenty of merit in trying, but, as said above each stave is different, even in the same log. I woul dbe willing to try anything as some woods are just a plain nightmare to dry.
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Ill have to try this with a chunk of ocean spray thanks VineMaplebows I was watching a tv show that john strunk did allong time ago I think it was called the Northwest hunter and he took two guys out into the woods and harvested VM and made bows from it, he mentioned in that video about submerging the staves in a creek for a month or so and coming back and getting it. I will have to ask him about it and get his take on it.
Blacktail I still havent tried the salt water submersion yet but I will, I was down at the dock about a week ago and found a spot I cant secure the stave to that would work well i think. I went out and got some Vine Maple today and plan on going out again in the next day or two so I will set one aside for this.
Bryce the problem I see with doing multiple staves is it wouldnt be a very accurate test as every piece of wood is different :-\ wish we had one someone who knew more about it, interesting indeed :)
Josh
that show sounds good do you know if there any way to watch it on the internet??? Thanks alot
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What I believe truly happens is that inner heart wood is dryer than wood closer to the sap, therefore there is a dramatic curve in the drying from internal wood compared to wood closer to the cambium layer (where moisture is transfered to the tree or shrub) By submerging the wood in water till it is totally saturated the drying process is then equilized, and therefore less cracking accurs.
Brian
I believe that what happens when wood splits is that the outer wood dries at a faster rate and therefore tries to shrink around the core wood, which it can't do. It therefore splits to accommodate the larger diameter of the core. The same thing applies to end splits.
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sounds like a good experiment for sure.
all staves might be different, but if its done enough, a general rule or opinion might emerge?
what concerns me is whether 30 days soaking might weaken that sap layer.
there are oils in that sap that probably oughta stay put, and we wouldn't want those oils "leeched out" by soaking.
I've done some steaming ,where i feel the wood became more brittle once bent and dried.
But then, I haven't done much steaming, maybe i wasn't doing it right.
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Ill have to try this with a chunk of ocean spray thanks VineMaplebows I was watching a tv show that john strunk did allong time ago I think it was called the Northwest hunter and he took two guys out into the woods and harvested VM and made bows from it, he mentioned in that video about submerging the staves in a creek for a month or so and coming back and getting it. I will have to ask him about it and get his take on it.
Blacktail I still havent tried the salt water submersion yet but I will, I was down at the dock about a week ago and found a spot I cant secure the stave to that would work well i think. I went out and got some Vine Maple today and plan on going out again in the next day or two so I will set one aside for this.
Bryce the problem I see with doing multiple staves is it wouldnt be a very accurate test as every piece of wood is different :-\ wish we had one someone who knew more about it, interesting indeed :)
Josh
that show sounds good do you know if there any way to watch it on the internet??? Thanks alot
I searched for it on the internet and couldnt find it so I asked john about it and he said he had it recorded and then he loaded me up with a bunch of VHS videos of interviews with him and different classes and shows he did, I really enjoyed them and want to figure out how to record them to dvd if he gives me permision. I tried contacting the northwest hunter on facebook with no reply and did some searches and didnt find it.
He also had a recorded video of Joe St Charles giving a tour of his museum and archery shop where he shows every item in the shop and gives details about them and the makers of around 40 bows and a ton of arrows and other stuff, its very interesting. I will see if John cares if I copy them and maybe share them .
Josh
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Storing fresh cut logs in water has been on my mind quite a bit lately.
I was thinking that it might have a positive side effect of keeping
the cursed bores from from getting going as fast if at all without using pesticides.
Unfortunately I don't a have access to a suitable stock tank to use for this test.
And my buddy already told me not to even look at his saltwater swimming pool...
So I'll have to put off any testing until my situation changes.
As salt tends to draw out moisture it will be interesting to see if checking becomes a problem.
Cool Thread!
-gus
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I agree with Mark. Cracks occur when the outside wood dries faster (and shrinks faster) than the inside wood.
Drying wood so it can be used to make things is actually a science. It has been engineered to death and no study that I have ever seen recommends adding water to the wood before drying it. In fact, my personal experience has shown that adding water to the wood increases the chances of cracking while drying. Why do you think it's advantageous to harvest wood when the "sap is down"?
This reminds me of the urban legend that states that water will freeze faster if you warm it up first.
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The only advantage I can see is keeping bugs out of it until you can properly deal with it. And even then only as a very temporary remedy. But do not construe that I am telling you to not experiment. Actually the opposite is true. I would love to see someone take a log, split in fourths, two in the soup, two cured in the more traditional manner, and eventually four bows of the same design and draw weight as possible be made.
If all we were interested in were the tried and true, this would flat be BORING ME TO DEATH. >:D
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Jack,
You are pointing out why I think it has merit.....Is wood from the center of trees alive??? Or is it dead material? second, wood that has more moisture content would therefore loose water quicker...wouldn't it??? Especially on the interior of the wood, where there can be several inches there would be various moisture content? Cutting while sap is down would refer to water transportating through the cambium layer, when plants or trees are dorment. Either way interesting converstation.
Get your rabbits yet???
Brian
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I too agree with Marc - due to the sap wood drying (and shrinking) faster than the heart wood, it is unable to shrink without cracking. This is why, when cutting fresh non white wood staves, I just cut them overly long (eight feet) and allow them to dry outdoors without sealing them at all. The ends do split a little, but the splits rarely end up in the usable heart wood and rarely go so far into the stave where it cant be cut off.
I have heard of submerging the wood in lake for a week or two - but that was to hydrate it to better facilitate a steam bend or a bend by splitting.
Russ
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i was thinking more of hacking up the same stave into 4 pieces.
It is a good idea and i am sure there is plenty of merit in trying, but, as said above each stave is different, even in the same log. I woul dbe willing to try anything as some woods are just a plain nightmare to dry.
even still its gonna be your best bet. if you wanted to get real picky your could record temperature, wind speed--> chill factors. humidity, air pressure run the water through density testing and GCMS machine for trace components, HP testing, digital laser caliper to measure each individual check mark, every single variable to be super thorough. but come on thats way to complicated and would take days sitting in a lab measure and testing.
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Brian, nope...haven't got the rabbits yet but I will. ;D Thanks for asking!
As for your question: "second, wood that has more moisture content would therefore loose water quicker...wouldn't it???", the answer is no. The factors that effect the rate of the loss of water in the wood are: relative humidity, temperature, and air flow.
The center of the tree is dead, that is true. However, it is wet due to capillary action. It's just as wet at the rest of the tree. In fact, the heartwood's main purpose is to store water.
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Brian, nope...haven't got the rabbits yet but I will. ;D Thanks for asking!
As for your question: "second, wood that has more moisture content would therefore loose water quicker...wouldn't it???", the answer is no. The factors that effect the rate of the loss of water in the wood are: relative humidity, temperature, and air flow.
The center of the tree is dead, that is true. However, it is wet due to capillary action. It's just as wet at the rest of the tree. In fact, the heartwood's main purpose is to store water.
The only part of a tree that is alive is the cambium just beneath the bark and the leaves. Everything else is dead. The larger the tree, the higher the dead/live ratio. The live part of a tree is really quite a minor component. Trees are almost a sort of zombie plant. The zombie infection is prolly related to our overwhelming addiction to making bows. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Jw, is right....heres a link...read about heartwood http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/tree/rings.html
Jack, in a kiln they heat wood, to remove water as well as inject steam to keep the wood at a given rate of moisture loss....direct heat without any water will lead to extensive warpage, and cracking. This is what I was told by a Weyerhauser worker.
Brian
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Hmmm...this has become a contest of who knows more about trees. I'm game. ;D
The link provides information that appears factual and elementary. In fact, it is... from an elementary school. :o
More advanced reading can be had at the various university websites like the one below:
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/forestry/tree_biology/101.html
JW, A tree contains more living tissue than simply the cambium layer and the leaves.
Brian, injecting steam into a kiln's atmosphere is not the same as adding water to the wood. And heat without humidity will not always lead to warping and cracking. Drying thin veneer is one example. "Fire hardening" or "tempering" is another.
Your turn. >:D
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Hmmm...this has become a contest of who knows more about trees. I'm game. ;D
The link provides information that appears factual and elementary. In fact, it is... from an elementary school. :o
More advanced reading can be had at the various university websites like the one below:
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/forestry/tree_biology/101.html
JW, A tree contains more living tissue than simply the cambium layer and the leaves.
Brian, injecting steam into a kiln's atmosphere is not the same as adding water to the wood. And heat without humidity will not always lead to warping and cracking. Drying thin veneer is one example. "Fire hardening" or "tempering" is another.
Your turn. >:D
Love it
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I was told that steam was used in the kiln to keep the moisture high until the kiln hits a certain temperature. Once it hits that temp the wood can be dried without the excessive checking or warping.
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guys very intreasting i just remberd a couple years ago a guy wrote a artical about the salt water way i cannot rember if it was in p a or trade world im gonna have a look thru back issues and see if i can find it i think it d be some good readin for us who are intreasted in it if anyone knows chime in brock
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guys very intreasting i just remberd a couple years ago a guy wrote a artical about the salt water way i cannot rember if it was in p a or trade world im gonna have a look thru back issues and see if i can find it i think it d be some good readin for us who are intreasted in it if anyone knows chime in brock
Let us know if you find it I would like to check it out as well.
Found this on a search on water seasoning. http://chestofbooks.com/home-improvement/woodworking/Carpentry-Principles/451-Water-Seasoning.html
Alot of different perspectives here as well on water seasoning http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/14700
Josh
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guys very intreasting i just remberd a couple years ago a guy wrote a artical about the salt water way i cannot rember if it was in p a or trade world im gonna have a look thru back issues and see if i can find it i think it d be some good readin for us who are intreasted in it if anyone knows chime in brock
I remember that article. It was in PA mag I think. I have it at home. If no one else finds it first, I will look for it tomorrow.
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Puting staves in water dose simply one thing. I slows down mosture leaveing the wood. Thus stops crying cracks. Just as if you seal the whole stave(bow) as you do now. Indains did this because they had nothing to seal the bow with as I dryed. Water was there and they use what was avalable and it slowed down mouture loss. I'm sure if they had sulach or paint,etc they'ed had used that.
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Here we go Eddie. ;) ;D ;D ;D
Pappy
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I agree with Marc and JW. The sap is on the cambium layer (xylem and phloem) which we call the inner bark which comes off with the inner bark provided you cut the wood during the growing season. I don't let water near my staves. Jawge
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Me either GEORGE.
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I have heard for years this soaking method removes the resins and replaces them with water. The water disapates quicker than the resins so the stave dries faster and more evenly. For me, I want all the resins, etc to remain in the wood to strengthen the wood as the resins solidify. Once these resins have solidified I think then the wood is "seasoned" or "cured" making it a more stable medium to work with.
I also think that seasoning wood in salt water would add salt to the wood making it more susceptable to attracting moisture. Blackbeard Island off he coast of GA was aquired by the US Government in the hey days of wooden ships because of the live oak trees that were there. The natural shapes of these tree trunks and limbs were used for the portion of the ships skelaton. These "timbers" were cut to shape, joints were cut and holes drilled then the timbers were buried in the salt marshes for a year or more. When these timbers were removed from the marshes they had mineralied making them too hard to work. That is why all of the cuting, drilling, etc was done ahead of time. This worked great for ship building but I don't think it would be appropriate for bow building. A bow has to flex over and over again and has to be able to recover at the same rate each time it is bent.
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I agree with Marc and JW. The sap is on the cambium layer (xylem and phloem) which we call the inner bark which comes off with the inner bark provided you cut the wood during the growing season. I don't let water near my staves. Jawge
Good enough for me George.
It is true that the sap wood is shrinking because it is drying faster than the inner wood, thus causing it to check. I don't see how adding more water to the inner wood is the solution, I think it is wiser to slow the water loss from the sapwood.
Im not convinced that the water isn't going to cause mildew issues. It doesn't take long for wood to be useless if left in water, try making a bow from a piece of driftwood some time. I suspect that if the wood is destroyed within months, there is damage being done within days. Regardless it isn't necessary since we know you can seal the ends and back and solve the issue.
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Interesting replies...really like the links. Jack, although I personally love drawn out debates, I think your links and others have put this issue to rest, as we would be debating opinion from this point on. I was hoping for more first hand expirience from those that tried it. I am sure that there would be places because of climate to ones piticular home areas that would possibly effect positive, or negative results in the drying process if "water treated".
Please keep in mind I am refering to specific woods, NOT all woods. I would not do this to woods most people NORMALLY use in bow making, ONLY hard to dry woods that tend to crack...like fruit, and the others that I listed in the beginning of this thread.
Keep in mind that If Marc's heat treating method was not tried by Marc it would not have became a tried, and true method.
Pappy.... :laugh:
Brian
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Justin
I think submerged wood does not decay due to a lack of oxygen and that is why drift wood ends up on shore rotten - as it has been floating and exposed to both the water and air simultaneously - which is the proper environ for rot.
I do not think submerging wood will aid in its drying - it will keep wood fresher though - and I know of canoe builders who purposely submerge cedar to keep it "green" for the splitting and rib bending that they are planning as green wood bends and splits easier than dried.
Russ