Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: osage outlaw on February 14, 2012, 04:09:55 pm
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I want to try to make some sinew glue for backing bows. I could use some help with it. I just finished sorting my scraps. I pulled out any dark pieces and anything with fat on it. I ended up with 4.5 ounces of clean scraps. I am going to put it in my crock pot and cover them with water. Should I cook it on high or low? With the lid on or off? I know I don't want it getting to hot. And how long should I cook it? I will post updates as I go along.
Clean scraps and dirty scraps
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/clintanders/SDC14493.jpg)
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I would think low. I understand you do not want it to boil.
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Clint your pile looks great. I cook mine on hi with the lid on. That is just below boiling on most crock pots. It will bubble hen you first pull the lid off but it will be fine. I fill it a little over half full and start it at bed time and it will be glue by morning. Just through what you don't use in the freezer until needed.
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Keenan, does it really take that long to cook? I just turned mine on. I guess I could turn it off and wait until tonight to start it.
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/clintanders/SDC14494.jpg)
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This il be fun to follow. My last sinew glue was all cracky and crappy. The bow I sinew backed with it is still shooting after almost a year now, and has about 1" of reflex right now I think, it went from like 60# or so @ 28" to maybe like 75# or a bit more, at least that is what it feels like after trying to draw it the other day. :laugh:It only has one layer of sinew too. The glue cracks to hell at back when I draw it, so it is not that much fun to shoot. I have read in TBB once that boiling for a couple hours make glue only a small bit not as good as simering for 5 or 6 hours. Now that confused the crap outta me as I have read and heard, as have everyone else I think, that you should never boil hide/sinew glue, as it il weaken the glue. I do my best nowadays to simmer for a good couple hours. I have never made glue in a crock pot, but I'm about to try it out also. My old lady recently decided that our crock pot is broken, as it "doesn't even get that hot", according to her. LOL LOL So she said I could use it... I not entirely sure that she really knows how a crock pot works, but I am not gonna argue!
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If you don't want to end up in the dog house, especially today, you'd best cook it outside, or in the garage, cuz it really stinks.
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Thanks for the tip. Its in my work shop in the garage. My wife complains about the smell when I cook deer meat. I could only imagine what she would say to cooking hide glue in the house.
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Clint your pile looks great. I cook mine on hi with the lid on. That is just below boiling on most crock pots. It will bubble hen you first pull the lid off but it will be fine. I fill it a little over half full and start it at bed time and it will be glue by morning. Just through what you don't use in the freezer until needed.
You usually have big chunks in the glue left over in the morning, right? Do you usually throw them away, I used to grind them up to liquid in a blender and then use it as glue, but I think that may not be the best thing? I have tons of glue questions. It seems to me that my glue doesn't get sticky until it is pretty thick, which is when I use it when it will stick my fingers together. But then it starts to get little glue balls everywhere and all over my hands. Or that my be it is drying to fast. The last bow I made has cracks covering the entire back, I could almost tiller the bow by telling where it is bending more by the cracks it is so bad. I'm hoping as some guys on here have said that it is because of the glue being too thick, is your guys glue sticky when you use it?
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Did you strain your glue when you were done cooking it? Maybe it was to thick. I don't know. I have only used knox gelatin and I didn't get any cracks in my sinew back. The knox it thin stuff but very sticky.
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Lower, slower, and longer is the best hide glue. That's why I use the oven. I can keep my oven at about 170 degrees F/77 Celsius. It never approaches boiling that way.
As long as I keep a cover on the pan (I use an enameled roasting pan) I don't lose so much moisture. If it does lose moisture, top it up with distilled water. In fact, use distilled water for the batch, I can only imagine the dissolved minerals and salts can't help the glue any.
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Now you tell me JW. I forgot about distilled water. I used tap water. Oh well.
I rigged up a hillbilly coffee can strainer. Maybe I should make another one. It might clog up fast. Will this aluminum pan work to dry the glue in?
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/clintanders/SDC14496.jpg)
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Good thread here amgio ;)
Cipriano
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I turned it down to low for the night. I will check it first thing in the morning and see what I have.
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I use paint strain filter for mine. As far as sticky it seems watery until you start soaking the sinew bundles. They will just add to the stickiness.
Guys everyone seems so worried about a crock pot getting to hot on Hi and it simply isn't anything to worry about. I have a dedicated crockpot and have done more batches of sinew glue then I can remember. I have only had one time when it lifted slightly and that was due to lack of surface prep.
Several things I like about "true sinew glue" is that it seems to soak in slightly deeper because of the watery tendency and gets the glue beneath the surface of the wood. Yes that adds more moisture to the wood and can sometimes take longer on the curing then tightbond or other glues. However I have tested it several times and it will often rip the wood before pulling off the bow back. It should be noted that I have not sinewed Osage and most of my experience is with white woods
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Good thread here. I won't address the making of the glue because you all have that covered. As for the cracking of the glue once it is on your bow, I'll address that.
In my experience, it has nothing to do with the quality of the glue or how you processed it. It is a meter of how much glue you are using when applying the sinew bundles to the back of the bow. First, the glue doesn't have to be Aunt Jemima syrup, thick. When it is, it will set up faster causing your "glue balls". Second, apply a very thin coat of hide glue to the bow back and allow to soak in slightly prior to applying any bundles to bow. This is called, sizing. Then, dip your bundle of sinew into the hide glue and squeegee off the bundle between your fingers removing excess glue. Apply the bundles to the back of the bow as though you were shingling a roof, alternating bundles so as not to have a continuous seam across the bow limb. The key to reducing the cracking is reducing the amount of glue. There is a tendency to use too much glue and it is not necessary. I've also seen some bowyers fill voids between sinew bundles with hide glue to get an even appearance. This will also cause the cracks in your finished product. Keeping a moist towel (not your wife's monogrammed his/her towel) near you to wipe your fingers between each bundle, helps with the "tar and feather" syndrome.
Sinewing is something that takes a bit of practice. You'll get better at it as you discover your own little tricks.
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Cool Thread Y'all.
One thing that I keep missing in the glue recipes that I've read is the Water To Sinew Scrap ratio...
How much sinew and how much water are you putting in the pot to begin rendering?
Or do you just eyeball and pinch?
Thank You!
-gus
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Good thread here. I won't address the making of the glue because you all have that covered. As for the cracking of the glue once it is on your bow, I'll address that.
In my experience, it has nothing to do with the quality of the glue or how you processed it. It is a meter of how much glue you are using when applying the sinew bundles to the back of the bow. First, the glue doesn't have to be Aunt Jemima syrup, thick. When it is, it will set up faster causing your "glue balls". Second, apply a very thin coat of hide glue to the bow back and allow to soak in slightly prior to applying any bundles to bow. This is called, sizing. Then, dip your bundle of sinew into the hide glue and squeegee off the bundle between your fingers removing excess glue. Apply the bundles to the back of the bow as though you were shingling a roof, alternating bundles so as not to have a continuous seam across the bow limb. The key to reducing the cracking is reducing the amount of glue. There is a tendency to use too much glue and it is not necessary. I've also seen some bowyers fill voids between sinew bundles with hide glue to get an even appearance. This will also cause the cracks in your finished product. Keeping a moist towel (not your wife's monogrammed his/her towel) near you to wipe your fingers between each bundle, helps with the "tar and feather" syndrome.
Sinewing is something that takes a bit of practice. You'll get better at it as you discover your own little tricks.
Agreed - also don't make it too thick as this can also cause the ominous creaks/cracks.
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Osage, I agree with JW; slow, long, and low is the best way. No sense in getting in any type of hurry. I keep my glue between 155-170 for appx 7 hrs. Prior to this, however, I allow the hide to soak a few hrs, strain and then re hydrate and turn the heat on. It has never failed me. I know there other methods, but this one works fine for me. Hope it turns out well for you.
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I checked it this morning and most of the sinew dissolved. I was amazed at how little sinew was left.
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/clintanders/SDC14498.jpg)
My hillbilly strainer worked great.
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/clintanders/SDC14499.jpg)
I poured the glue into the aluminum pan to cool. It is a clear amber color. It is thin, and when I dipped my fingers into it it wasn't very sticky. Maybe I added to much water to the sinew at the beginning. Should it be sticky at this point? Could I pour it back in the crock pot and let it steam off some water? I hope I didn't just wast all of my scraps.
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/clintanders/SDC14500.jpg)
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Clint read my earlier post on page one about the stickiness. You may want to put it back in and cook a little longer. Even add some more scraps if you have them. However mine often looks just like yours but I never dry it. I just pour it in an old margarine container and put it in the fridge. When I need it I pull it out and trow it in the microwave until warmed. I have used some over and over that way and it just seems to get better each time I dip more sinew in it.
Mat, I totally agree about the glue amount and cracking. Perfect explanation.
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It already jelled up. That was all the scraps that I had. I have a bunch of small pieces of sinew that I can shred up and use. I'll heat it back up tomorrow and throw the sinew in it. I will leave the lid off so it can evaporate.
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Round 2:
The glue jelled up nicely today. I put it all back in the crock pot and turned it back into a liquid. I shredded up a few small pieces of sinew and thew in with it. I'm going to let it cook overnight and see what it looks like in the morning. I hope it evaporates some of the excess water out of it. I was going to leave it on the high setting, but I could see some of the sinew curling up so I was afraid it was to hot.
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Clint you might want to set the alarm clock and check in the middle of the night. Not sure you have enough liquid for an all nighter now. :o
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Clint you might want to set the alarm clock and check in the middle of the night. Not sure you have enough liquid for an all nighter now. :o
There is still quite a bit of liquid. I think it will be OK. I'll check it right before I go to bed tonight. Thanks for the help Keenan. The reason I made this post is so I could get some help along the way.
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Jelling is gooooooood! You will be surprised how little glue it takes to do a good job sinewing a bow. This is definitely ok. To avoid cracks or gaps in the sinew on the bow, comb it a little after wetting with glue. Lay it on a piece of glass or somethign else very smooth and run a cheap plastic comb across the sinew bundle. It will turn into a ribbon instead of a round bundle. Lays on like shingles. Then as you run your glue wetted finger across the ribbon of sinew applied to the back of the bow you push out air bubbles and slick it down in place. Much prettier, much more consistent sinewing.
I really gotta do a build-along of this technique.
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Boy you were right Keenan. I just went out and checked it. The level had dropped a lot. It has a slightly darker color to it and it is thicker. I poured it into my strainer and it didn't just go right through it like the first time. It looks a lot better. I will let it jell over night and see what looks like in the morning.
JW, I would love to see a how-to on your sinewing technique. Do you keep the piece of glass wet while you are doing it?
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Boy you were right Keenan. I just went out and checked it. The level had dropped a lot. It has a slightly darker color to it and it is thicker. I poured it into my strainer and it didn't just go right through it like the first time. It looks a lot better. I will let it jell over night and see what looks like in the morning.
JW, I would love to see a how-to on your sinewing technique. Do you keep the piece of glass wet while you are doing it?
A layer of glue builds up, but I don't keep it wet intentionally.
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I was able to pour the glue into 3 smaller pans instead of the big one. I have 3 nice jelly blobs of glue this morning. Keenan how long do they stay good for in the freezer? I was thinking of freezing some of it and trying to dry the rest. Does anyone dry their glue and store it that way? I don't have plans on using it any time soon. Maybe this summer I'll sinew another bow. Thanks for the help guys :)
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/clintanders/SDC14503.jpg)
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If you are going to dry it, spend the better part of your day cutting it into the tiniest pieces you can. Trust me, drying a block can lead to mildewed or molded hide glue at the best, or a mass of stinking rotten goop. Once it is diced fine, put a fan close by to blow gently across it...it cuts your drying time drastically. Once dried it really takes time and patience to rehydrate, you can't rush it.
On the other hand, once gelled, wrap with plastic wrap and pop it in the freezer. Pull it out the day before you want to use it and let it thaw in the fridge, warm slightly and it's ready to go. I have stored some glue in the freezer in a margarine tub for over two years. There were some water crystals on the surface, but they just rehydrated the thin skin of glue on the surface when they thawed.
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JW, I would love to see a how-to on your sinewing technique. Do you keep the piece of glass wet while you are doing it?
IF I was going to the Tennessee Classic and IF someone was there to take good photos and IF someone had a bow they wanted sinewed, it's possible we could collaborate on an article for PA Magazine. >:D
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Thanks. I'll freeze 2 and try to dry 1. I was recently given a small deep freeze that sits in the garage not being used. Maybe I'll turn that into my supply freezer ;D Is it better to store processed sinew in the freezer?
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Thanks. I'll freeze 2 and try to dry 1. I was recently given a small deep freeze that sits in the garage not being used. Maybe I'll turn that into my supply freezer ;D Is it better to store processed sinew in the freezer?
It's nice and dry, just keep it away from the dog.
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JW, I would love to see a how-to on your sinewing technique. Do you keep the piece of glass wet while you are doing it?
IF I was going to the Tennessee Classic and IF someone was there to take good photos and IF someone had a bow they wanted sinewed, it's possible we could collaborate on an article for PA Magazine. >:D
JW, I have been tossing around the idea of a very short sinew backed osage bow. IF you were there, I could bring a camera, sinew, and a piece of osage.
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JW, I would love to see a how-to on your sinewing technique. Do you keep the piece of glass wet while you are doing it?
IF I was going to the Tennessee Classic and IF someone was there to take good photos and IF someone had a bow they wanted sinewed, it's possible we could collaborate on an article for PA Magazine. >:D
JW, I have been tossing around the idea of a very short sinew backed osage bow. IF you were there, I could bring a camera, sinew, and a piece of osage.
That's too bad. Because if I was to even think about trying to go, then the Fates would conspire to prevent it from happening. >:D
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I intend to bring my hide glue and sinew to Twin Oaks for sinewing demonstrations. I was speaking to Gary Davis last night and we both thought it might be a good idea. I'll have bows to sinew. I thought we'd get PA involved, as well. I did an article for a German magazine a while back.
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I intend to bring my hide glue and sinew to Twin Oaks for sinewing demonstrations. I was speaking to Gary Davis last night and we both thought it might be a good idea. I'll have bows to sinew. I thought we'd get PA involved, as well. I did an article for a German magazine a while back.
Maybe the humidity and rain (and it will rain!) will stay away long enough for a demonstration >:D
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I have a question about the materials used to make glue: Hide, Tendon, Snake Skin...
It all has to be Dried (No Salt?) prior to re-hydrating and cooking, correct?
Thank You.
-gus
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Clint that looks great. I have a dedicated "man" freezer with hides skins and all the other stuff Lulyn doesn't want in our main freezer.
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Osage,
JW is right about the drying. I ruined my last batch. I cut into squares and ran fishing line through and just hung it up and the glue slid down one square on top of the other, it was humid and summer all of the squares got mold. I have dryed it successfully also. Cut in 1 in squares and dried on line and seperated and fanned. Dried really nice and stored the dried squares in a zip lock bag. I had that batch for 10+ years.
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I cubed it up and put it in front of a fan all afternoon. I brought it to work tonight. I'm going to put it in front of the fan in my office. I plan on doing this everyday until its dry. Thanks for all the help guys.
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Anybody ever try it in a dehydrator? I have one that goes from 90 to 160. I was thinking that might be a way to go.
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I think it would melt it. Maybe it would work after they were partially dry.
Good news! I was spreading the little cubes out in front of the fan and my fingers started sticking together :D At least I know it is sticky. I think I actually made some glue :)
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I think it would melt it. Maybe it would work after they were partially dry.
Good news! I was spreading the little cubes out in front of the fan and my fingers started sticking together :D At least I know it is sticky. I think I actually made some glue :)
Congratulations on glue...just don't do any paperwork with sticky fingers >:D
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Good thread here. I won't address the making of the glue because you all have that covered. As for the cracking of the glue once it is on your bow, I'll address that.
In my experience, it has nothing to do with the quality of the glue or how you processed it. It is a meter of how much glue you are using when applying the sinew bundles to the back of the bow. First, the glue doesn't have to be Aunt Jemima syrup, thick. When it is, it will set up faster causing your "glue balls". Second, apply a very thin coat of hide glue to the bow back and allow to soak in slightly prior to applying any bundles to bow. This is called, sizing. Then, dip your bundle of sinew into the hide glue and squeegee off the bundle between your fingers removing excess glue. Apply the bundles to the back of the bow as though you were shingling a roof, alternating bundles so as not to have a continuous seam across the bow limb. The key to reducing the cracking is reducing the amount of glue. There is a tendency to use too much glue and it is not necessary. I've also seen some bowyers fill voids between sinew bundles with hide glue to get an even appearance. This will also cause the cracks in your finished product. Keeping a moist towel (not your wife's monogrammed his/her towel) near you to wipe your fingers between each bundle, helps with the "tar and feather" syndrome.
Sinewing is something that takes a bit of practice. You'll get better at it as you discover your own little tricks.
Agreed - also don't make it too thick as this can also cause the ominous creaks/cracks.
Thank you guys, this is what I was wantin to know! I got a batch cookin right now, hoping it will turn out much better. The glue looks great osage outlaw. Thanks for letting me ask question in your thread.
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No problem, I hope your glue turns out good :) I have been keeping my glue chunks in front of a fan and they are drying out. I like this glue making stuff. I have a half of a tanned wildabeast hide with some bare spots on it. Could I cut those areas out and make glue from that or does it have to be rawhide?
The glue is almost dry
(http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r55/clintanders/SDC14510.jpg)
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If you think it's dry, try putting it in a dehydrator! >:D Picking the mess out of the mesh after it warms up and starts to run is a lot of fun.
Even shrunk up and as hard as ball bearings there is a surprising amount of moisture in it. Nice color, though, really pale. In my experience, paler smells less, works harder.
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If you think it's dry, try putting it in a dehydrator! >:D Picking the mess out of the mesh after it warms up and starts to run is a lot of fun.
Should not be a problem. I have silicone trays for drying liquids. >:D >:D 8)