Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Weylin on February 24, 2012, 01:45:20 am
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I decided to make my own thread for the trade bow that I'm making. I didn't want to clog up the main thread with lots of little nit-picky questions. The stave is from a large yew branch. Unfortunately I had to lay out the bow on the side of the branch due to some decayed areas and some serious checks that I had to avoid. It has some interesting character to it, some dips and bumps and a couple snakes. I have the bow bending a few inches and I have a pretty good taper going. I originally started out following John Strunk's chapter on the yew longbow from TBB1.
Due to the lopsided growth ring pattern (because the bow was laid out on the side of the branch) Keenan had advised my to go for more of a flat bow style to protect more against possible runoff problems. Luckily I still had quite a bit of wood to work with at that point so I could modify my layout a little. Instead of the 1 1/4" width at the fades that Mr. Strunk advised I managed to make it 1 1/2" at the fades, allowing me to make the bow thinner and flatter. so my current dimensions are 1 1/2" width at the fades narrowing to 3/4" (I plan to narrow the tips but allowed some wiggle room to start with.) John Strunk's article shows the thickness tapering about a 1/2" from fades to tip. I know that flat bows have less of a thickness taper than a narrower longbow. right now I still have that 1/2" taper but I'm not sure what I should reduce it to given my altered width. Would a 1/4 " make more sense considering the more drastic width taper? I know that ultimately what matters is how the limbs are working but I feel like i need a ball park to shoot for given my relative inexperience. Any advice is appreciated.
Here are the pics that I have so far but they are a bit outdated. I have taken off a lot of wood since then. I will hopefully be able to update the pics tomorrow.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4719.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4720.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4751.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4750.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4755.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4752.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4741.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4753.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4728.jpg)
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This is gonna be good, Weylin 8)
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Thanks for the vote of confidence Pat. :) I feel like I'm not out of the water yet. I've never dealt with the lopsided rings before and i'm not quite sure what to expect from them when the bow really starts bending.
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Just start removing wood evenly, checking the bend and exercise after each wood removal. Don't look at the growth rings. Get these limbs bending evenly and together and you'll have a beautiful bow.
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Thanks Pat. That's what I've been doing so far. I'm doing me best to follow all the dips and humps on the back, it sure is a roller coaster. Any thoughts on the thickness taper? like I said, the difference between the fades and the tipsis about a 1/2" right now, should I reduce that or keep it about the same?
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I'll post some figures for this one of mine (40#) to give you an idea.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,28324.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,28324.0.html)
At widest point 43.6mm wide x 17mm thick
Thinest point 13.2 mm thick, this is about 4" from the tip which gets narrower and a tad thicker (14mm wide 15mm thick just before the tip overlay).
Sorry about the mix of inches and mm. I find mm great for smaller measurement but prefer inches for the long ones!
So when measuring limbs I take mm dimensions every 6" :laugh:
Hope this is some help
Del
PS. Looks like it's coming along great, and leaving the extra tip width to start with is V sensible so you can adjust the nocks/string line in case it wants to shift with that asymetric grain.
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Is the wood dry at this point? Growth ring orientation like that (lopsided) can seriously warp staves. Those rings are not 'bad' per se, but it makes for more difficult bowyery. Normally, the rings 'feather out' on the belly of a bow, but those will not happen in this case. Furthermore, one side of the limb may be denser wood (=smaller rings) than the other side. That might mean the limb twists easily. You could very well end up with on side of the limbs thicker than the other wide, but that will become clear during tillering.
It's a nice stave with potential. With a growth ring orientation like that, you just need to be carefull because the wood is not uniform in the stave. With a branch (any wood), you should ideally take either the top quarter, pointing towards the sky, or the bottom quater, pointing towards the earth. The "left" and "right" quarters/sides should be tossed away.
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I never measure thickness or thickness taper but remove wood so the limbs are bending evenly and together. If you try to prethink the thickness, and especially with growth rings like this one has and the irregulatities it has you are going to have problems. Use your fingers to feel the thickness, between your thumb and fingers and let your sense of touch help you follow those hoop de doos to help you get the good taper.
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I totally agree with Pat. :)
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@ Del, Thanks! That's a really cool looking bow. And your dimensions give me some good perspective. That's all good advice. :)
@Darksoul, Thanks for chiming in. The wood should be plenty dry. it spent more than a year in log form, at least six months split in half and in a warm house and probably a month in roughed out bow form before it started bending. Your advice about taking the bow from the top or bottom of a branch is definitely good. In this case however, I could make a bow from the side of the branch or not at all. There was some serious checks in one end and some decayed areas with no sapwood that I had to avoid. I will definitely keep my eye on the twisting as I bend the bow more. I'm not relishing the idea of keeping one side thicker because I already have enough crazy things going on with my taper but I'll do what i have to do. Thanks!
@Pat, It's not my intention to continue to measure the taper through the whole tillering process. But with my lack of experience I feel like I need something concrete to work with to establish a roughly appropriate taper before I start bending the bow. I just don't have that 'feel' for what a bow should look and feel like yet. Once I start bending the bow I will forget the numbers and just trust my fingers and my eyes. Though I'm worried about my eyes playing tricks on me given how many dips and dives this bow has. It's not going to appear to bend evenly even if the limbs are doing even work. i think I'm going to have to listen to my fingers a little more than I'm used to. Thanks for all your input, it is most appreciated.
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One little trick I use when working with character staves is to squint my eyes while bending the stave. This eliminates the details so all you see is the bend. Give that a try.
When I build a bow I get it to floor tiller(about 5/8" from handle to tip) then go to a long string(just long enough to go from t/t) and start bending. I mark areas that bend and flat areas, remove a little wood from the flat places and exercise then back to the tree. I generally only use a scraper from floor tiller on unless there is a drastic difference somewhere then a rasp to even that out.
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Just like Pat,s squinty eyes ,you can get back a little farther to help some times !
One thing I have done for the the deceitfull area is to unstrung the bow and use a straight edge to mark a straight line on the edge of the bow . Then when you string it and it bends you can lay the straight edge along the mark to see how much bend you are getting in that area just like you would if you held a straight edge along the belly of a limb !
I hope that is as clear as mud !
Guy
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Thanks for the tip, Pat. I will give the squinting a try.
That made perfect sense, Guy. That's a neat idea, I will use that as well.
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Good Start Weylin, I will be intersted to see how it goes for you. I understand that you had to either make a bow from the side of the limb or no bow at all and that is probably what i would have done. I do know that with the using the side wood of the limb you are using some tension wood and some compression wood of the tree limb and that is why your rings look like they do. I would have to guess you will get some limb twist with using the side of the limb so allow a bit more wood on the side of the bow limbs that was closer to the compression side of the branch as it will be weaker. Trial and error is what you will have to do here, check your tiller looking at both sides of the bow as you go. This should make a nice bow, I wish you luck and ill be watching buddy.
Josh
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Thanks Josh, I'll just take it slow.
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That looks really promising Weylin.... keep it up ...
I love working Yew :)
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Thanks Coaster. I like working with yew as well, it's pretty sweet. :)
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So I've ran into a problem. I have the bow ready to brace. The tiller's looking good (as far as i can tell...) and I've got the weight down enough that I can safely try to string it. But the few times that I have attempted to string it the tillering string starts to cut into the nocks. I filed the nocks using the method taught to me by John Strunk which leaves a little shelf at the top of groove to prevent that very problem. But clearly that's not enough in this case. I have repaired the beginning of the splits and filed the nocks in deeper but it happened again and I'm worried about ruining the bow. It's my intention to put overlays on the tips but i wasn't planning on doing it this early, my tips are still square and thick. So I guess my question is, can I fix the self nocks and continue to use them while I'm tillering or do I have no choice but to put on the overlays now?
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Any picture of the (damaged) nock? I've worked with yew a fair number of times, but never had a string 'bite' into the nock. If the wood is really damaged from only bracing the bow a few times, it would get worse over time. Is the wood really THAT soft? Is the string very thin?
A picture will definately help in determining how to solve the problem. A nockoverlay will certainly help, but if you don't like an overlay, we might come up with a better solution such as wrapping serving around the string loop. Try to take a picture of the nock in broad daylight, outdoors, with the camera set on macro mode (probably the icon with a little flower).
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Weylin, if you're planning on putting on overlays, you might as well do them now to avoid further problems. Yew sapwood is very soft...
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I always do my overlays first. I have heard people say that wait until a bow is near complete so they don't waist time with tip overlays on a bow if it doesn't make it. My thoughts are this, I do the overlays first and only have to do the sting groves once. It is less waisted time and I rarely have a failure. I guess I just hate doing things twice.
You should be fine if you stop and do the overlays now
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hey Weylin,i wish i was up there to help you...i am not the greatest bowyer.. but any who works with vm or yew makes me feel at home....i have a question for you...what kind of bow string are you using ...i hope every thing works out...john
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Thanks for all of the help and feed back, gents.
@Darksoul; Here are the pictures of the nocks. I am using a string made from fast flight plus with 16 strands. it is the same as my other yew bow has which has had no cutting problems yet. I was intending to do overlays any way so I'm inclined to just go that route. I have some ebony scraps that I have used successfully before.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4802.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4804.jpg)
@ Gordon and Keenan; I think I will just go ahead a put the overlays on. I don't like cringing every time I exercise the bow let alone string it. I had been putting off the overlays til last because of the questionable nature of the stave in general but it seems clear at this point that I can't go any further with the nocks in this condition. Keenan, here are some picks of the bow in general. I have rounded the edges down considerably. I wanted to know if that's what you were envisioning or if I need to do it even more. I hope the pictures show it well enough.
@Blacktail; Thanks for the encouragement.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4806.jpg)(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4805.jpg)(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4807.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4808.jpg)(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4809.jpg)(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4810.jpg)(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4811.jpg)(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4812.jpg)(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4815.jpg)
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Man weylin that is really looking nice I sure hope it works out for ya. I have also heard of guys adding a few strands in the loop section to fatten it up a bit :-\. Looking really nice so far and that character in that is awsome! Someone will be really happy with that bow when its finished up!
Josh
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Maybe i am just lucky but i have had string marks like that in many a bow and it hasnt worried me or broke at that point. As i pretty much add overlays to all my bows the cosmetic damage is removed later on. I tend to do overlays at about 23 inch where i know the bow has some chance of making it, seems like a waste otehrwise.
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Dwardo, did you see in the first picture where the back is splitting vertically below each nock? that's what's worrying me. seems like it has potential to continue travelling down the back.
I started filing down the tips in preparation for overlays last night. I might have enough ebony left from my last project but the pieces are kind of skimpy. I might go back to the woodworking store and see if they have any more cool scraps like that to use.
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Yes Weylin that is what I am talking about and looks great! Youpulled those grain rings back towards the center very nicely. That is certainly looking like it wants to be a dandy bow!
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that is coming along very well, you have followed the shape of the grain really well. on the last pic you posted there is a deflex curve in the upper limb just past the handle fades that is looking a little thin, be careful with that area as it has the most leverage from the limbs and wants to bend there, so you dont want a hinge to develop in that area because it is really hard to remove wood to get rid of it and you will end up with a much lighter bow, as others said just proceed carefully from here on and dont worry about measurements of limb thickness just go with what the bow needs for the correct tiller. love those character staves ;D
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You can always glue on a temporary overlay from a scrap of hardwood, when it's fully tillered rasp it off, flatten/angle the back a bit and do the final overlay. I do this on some of my ELBs as the Yew sapwood is abit soft.
Del
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Looking great. Makes me want to give yew a try.
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Dwardo, did you see in the first picture where the back is splitting vertically below each nock? that's what's worrying me. seems like it has potential to continue travelling down the back.
Sorry I didnt, i was browsing on a phone :-X
Not had that happen to me yet. Could only guess at too sharp a nock as above or too strong for a string yet? I will bow out now lol sry
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I would suggest rasping the tips down to a 45 deg angle and gluing another piece of dense wood or horn on. I think those slight cracks could easily be handled. Did you happen to try and brace the bow when it was much too stiff causing undue stress on the tips?
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Thanks for all the helpful input. I went ahead and put on some ebony tip overlays and they have solved the problem. I didn't completely finish them, just enough that they can do their job for now. It's possible that the bow was still a bit too strong for bracing. I was only attempting a very low brace but in retrospect it seemed like a lot of pressure. I'll be more careful about that in the future. now I'm back to checking the bend and taking a little wood off.
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Here is the bow on the tillering tree being pulled to 22 inches at it's target weight. Please bear in mind that it is a bumpy stave with lots of dips and dives on it's back. I know that makes it hard to see the tiller from a picture but I thought I'd put it up here anyway.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4853.jpg)
and at brace
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4854.jpg)
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Lookin good to me :)
Julian
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Looks a little hingey to me on right side just off the fade. Other than that keep going !!
Guy
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Weylin, looking good. It will help people to understand character tillering if they see your unbraced profile. From what I remember you had allot of dips and dives in the back. ;)
Buckey, I think what you are seeing is a natural dip in the back. If you go back to page one you'll see the major dip.
This is a great example of character tillering. Often people will ruin a bow by trying to get the whole limb looking perfect and forget to keep in mind the original profile. The important thing is to get all the wood bending the same. So if it is not flat to start with. you will not have a consistant arc but rather a mimic of the natural profile being bent.
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Thank you Jude and Buckeye.
It was my intention to get an unbraced photo for that very reason but my camera died before I could do it last night. ::)
It is really deceptive, I'm constantly second guessing myself about what's a hinge or a flat spot and what's natural. I think I have it fairly close. I'm just taking wood off really slowly, exercising it alot and trying to see past the rollercoasters. I'm also still trying to pay attention to how it feels between my fingers.
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been watching this thread for awhile and i gotta say i like what i see. whoever gets this bow is truly lucky.
the character in this bow is epic. love it.
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Thank you, Bryce. I hope my recipient likes it, Im pretty intimidated by the name that I drew. It's gonna be hard to give away :'(
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that looks really nice..i have been over to keenans house a few times because of optical illusions(thats what i call it)..and the humps can do that....i think it will make a fine bow...john
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I know what you're saying, second guessing yourself, not being sure if you should or shouldn't remove wood here or there... Sure is coming along nicely though.
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Its hard to see the amount of bend in the dips and humps ,and even more so on the internet!!
It just looked to me like it might be starting to bend more there than other places!
When I start getting my eyes drawn to an area they quit seeing the average of the whole so I unbrace and draw a straight line on the side of the limb thru the area .
Then back on the tiller tree and flex it with one hand as I hold the straight edge to the mark to see exactly how much the line is bending ! Then I have a true picture of how much it is bending through the dip or hump ! No need to be deceived !
Guy
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As Keenan indicated tillering a character bow by sight is tricky. What I do is first establish the correct overall thickness taper. After that instead of paying attention to how the tiller looks I make sure that the thickness taper remains consistent through the character portions of the limbs.
That said, I'm not certain that the overall thickness taper is quite correct. It appears to me that the outer limbs are not bending sufficiently.
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Ok, I have it all finished up and ready to ship out. I'm quite pleased with how it turned out given the uncertainties with the wood and my skill level. I've gotten pretty attached to it. It'll be hard to give to the mailman. Here are some pictures, thanks for everyone's help.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4879.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4880.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4883.jpg)
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More Pictures
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4885.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4886.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4887.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4888.jpg)
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And more
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4890.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4891.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4892.jpg)
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(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4898.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4894.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4893.jpg)
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/DSCN4897.jpg)
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That must have been a difficult tiller! Looks killer man.
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It was difficult for me, but that's not sayin' much. ::) Thanks, Bryce. :)
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Absolutely dead-on! You should be very proud of the finished product Weylin. It is beautiful, and the recipient, whoever it is, will be thrilled. If not, he can forward it to me ;)
Dave H.
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Weylin, I love it. No need for frills and fancy lace dress for this lady - she looks beautiful just as she is.
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Looks great weylin hope it's coming my way ;D
Josh
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Sweet !!!
looks like you got thru the dips and humps in fine shape !
Good job !
I will be watching the mail for it !!!
Guy
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Weyln, That is a dandy bow. By the looks of the bow I would think you have many under your belt, not your fourth. Someone is going to be very blessed. Well done
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Centerfold for sure Weylin!! Great job with a difficult stave :)
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Gorgeous bow!!
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Great looking bow.
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Yeah, sweet bow, just enough character to look stunning but not so much that it's carrying dead weight. I bet that shoots sweet and true.
Nice one, and you are trading that? :o.... oh deary me ::) .
I sure hope you get a good 'un back!
Del
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Thanks!
Nice one, and you are trading that? :o.... oh deary me ::) .
I sure hope you get a good 'un back!
Del
Yeah, Del. I have every intention of putting it in the mail but for some reason I haven't quite done it yet. I haven't made many bows yet so I still get pretty attached to them. Maybe I'll send it out this week... ::)
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Thanks!
Nice one, and you are trading that? :o.... oh deary me ::) .
I sure hope you get a good 'un back!
Del
Yeah, Del. I have every intention of putting it in the mail but for some reason I haven't quite done it yet. I haven't made many bows yet so I still get pretty attached to them. Maybe I'll send it out this week... ::)
Once you let it go it will give you the boost to make another one for "you"...., and another etc ..
Lovely work that one.