Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Bernal on March 16, 2012, 02:03:30 am
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I friend brought over a bunch of ash and bloodwood boards and we're slowly trying to figure out how to turn them into footed shafts. Ripping them into 1/2" square went well. But that's where the fun ended and the challenges began.
We decided on 2 point footings. Everything went well until the second day when we release the clamps and hear cracking. It came from the base of the V in the footing. Apparently bloodwood splits very very easily. We started with 4 inch and then tried 5 inch but that still wasn't enough to keep it from sounding like rice crispies when the clamps are removed.
To get around the problem, I've tried making V cuts in the footing so in theory they would just fit together without having to force the footing open. But that didn't work very well either. I've tried over and over, cutting the V's be hand and using a jig that I made up and in all cases, I can't get them to just "fit" together. I'm beginning to doubt my understanding of math and geometry (my two best subjects in school--many years ago).
At this point, the only thing I can think of is to keep refining my jigs to make more precise cuts. The tablesaw and disc sander didn't produce clean enough pointed shafts. I think I'm going to try the router table next.
After all that, I decided to make a jig to turn the 1/2" square shafts into 3/8" round shafts. My initial attempt wasn't too bad, but still has a number of kinks that need to be worked out. I used a block of oak and cut a 7/8" hole half way through and then 3/8" hole on through the other half. Then from the side, I cut a 1" diameter hole to meet the other two stopping just barely into the side of the 3/8" hole. I then drilled mounting holes in the block and mounted a small hand held router so that the top of the router bit was flush with the edge of the 3/8" hole. Then I popped the rig into my vice and tried a test piece of square stock. With the square stock being spun in a drill while being force through the block, I did have an almost 3/8" dowel come out the other side.
What I learned was that the router bit I used wasn't perfectly flat across the top and the cordless drill didn't spin the wood fast enough. Those two combined left me with a uneven spiral running down the length of the dowel. For next time, I need to get a better router bit and switch to my corded drill. Then I need to mount the block on a board with a stabilizing support some ways down so the dowel doesn't get whippy. All in all, not a bad first attempt. If I succeed with these tweaks then I'll be happy, if not then I'll be buying the Veritas doweling rig.
To be continued...
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The bloodwood splits after gluing? Reducing the shafts should make it easier...
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Have you tried making the cut in the ash as opposed to the bloodwood footing? Josh
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Stefan, yes, the bloodwood splits. Even when I super glue and re-clamp it will split/crack again when the clamp is removed.
Gun Doc, that's not a bad idea at all. I don't suppose there's any real reason it has to be one way or the other. and by splitting the ash, I'd probably end up with a little extra weight up front which is part of the goal. Thanks.
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Maybe if you cut your footings a little larger to begin with - say 5/8 square - maybe they will not split so easy when you remove the clamp.
Interesting idea to foot in reverse - but on impact, the shaft will want to split as the footing is forced into it deeper. Either the shaft or the foot has to be able to take the impact.
This reverse footing, I bet, will not only look real nice, but will be different and interesting to see - as I have never seen one like that before. Go for it and post a pic. I would love to see it.
Russ
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Russ, I don't think thicker footings would help, it would probably make it worse. A longer cut would help by reducing the angle but I think it would have to be unreasonably long to make a real difference.
This is pure speculation, but I don't think the impact will have any effect unless the glue were to give out and then it's all over anyway.
On the surface, you probably wouldn't be able to tell the footing cuts were reversed since it should be symmetric.
I'll try the reverse cuts approach tomorrow and will report back...
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You should persevere with the 'normal' way of making footings. It's done that way for a reason... ;)
What you need is some material that is suitable for footings rather than trying to make unsuitable wood work.
With good footing wood then you don't need to clamp the end of the cut when fitting. If it splits while fitting it wouldn't make a good footing anyway.
To make shafts with a router the best cutter is a staff bead cutter, the radius doesn't matter too much.
My jig basically has two holes through which the shaft spins. I don't make bigger than 11/32nd arrows and can therefore cut my stock into 3/8th squares. A 3/8ths square is 1/2 inch corner to corner. So the first hole is a 1/2 inch giving a tolerance fit between square stock and jig. Make a brass insert with the hole in it or else the hole will get bigger over time.
The cutter sits just behind this hole. Then there is another brass insert in a piece of wood with an 11/32 hole (or finished shaft diameter hole).
You need to be able to adjust the jig sideways so it can touch more/less of the cutter and the also adjust the height of the cutter.
If the shaft comes out small move jig away from cutter.
If shaft runs hot in the exit hole move towards cutter.
The spiral you've got in your shafts is due to unwanted movement/vibration.
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Also with that jig you can reduce the footings to perfect round in about 10 seconds! Certainly beats the heck out of doing it by hand which is torturous when you've got a few dozen to do!
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Mikekeswick, what would be the chances of you posting up some pictures of your jig?
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You should persevere with the 'normal' way of making footings. It's done that way for a reason... ;)
Mike, what is the reason? I can't think of any and haven't found any mention elsewhere.
In my case, the reason for the spirals was the end of the bit wasn't flat. The outer corner was higher than the center. This combined with not enough rpm on the dowel meant that as I pushed it through, the pointed tip cut a spiral. Since I didn't have any router bits with a truly flat top, I've scraped this plan and ordered the Veritas dowel and tenon cutter for $28. I wanted 3/8ths dowels so that I can do a barrel taper. If I decide to start making lots of these I'll eventually get the $300 or so Veritas dowel cutter so I can make different sizes.
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The veritas tool is ok but a router with the correct jig is the way to go in my opion. I've made literally thousands of shafts this way and have been right around the houses with ALL the various methods. The only better way is a commercial dowel maker and they aren't cheap plus a little overkill for a few shafts. Plus the bonus with the router/footings is the way you can go from square to round in seconds and they are perfectly straight.
You don't want a flat router cutter you need a staff bead cutter. Been there done that!! ;)
As for the reason footings are cut the way they are try both ways and you'll see. ;)
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I have been using merbau to foot sitka spruce shafts and the footings tended to split till I made them as fine as I dare so the "wings" are thin when I push the wedge shaped sitka into it. Also, I made the wedge fairly long at about 2.5" so the angle is very low and is gentler on the merbau. The main problem with this is you have to spend more time lining the foot up before clamping or you end up with an arrow with a corner :-[
Try thinking lighter not heavier. Worth a try?
Cheers
Rob.
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The reversed foot worked well. The ash opened up and after it was glued and the clamps released, there was no splitting/cracking.
The only reasons I've been able to come up with for why the footing is normally split is that many people add the footing to an already rounded shaft and to keep the overall weight down.
In my case, the footing and the shaft are both still square and the extra forward weight is good because we're trying to increase the FOC of the finished arrows.
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The reason the footing is usually split, is if your arrow strikes something hard it will split the footing and not the shaft. At least that is the theory and I'm sure that has been proven time and again. I wouldn't have suggested reversing the cut if it weren't for the problems with splitting you were having. If the glue joints hold fast, you shouldn't have to much problem as long as you don't hit a brickwall. Josh
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Another reason is if the joint splits a bit the sharp edge is pointed back and will not jag your hand.
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The only reasons I've been able to come up with for why the footing is normally split is that many people add the footing to an already rounded shaft and to keep the overall weight down.
I don't quite understand the statement above. I make footed arrows using the footings from 3 riverarchery, a jig and an already round shaft (5/16 port orford cedar) I use footings beacause they are beautiful but also to improve FOC, it sounds silly to me that when an footing is added to a round shaft this is done to keep the weight down..Hardwood is heavier than cedar, pine or spruce either way it will improve FOC,..
I rarely have an footing split, If it does i haven't made the glue surface of the shaft thin enough or the cut in the footing is to irregular, I always use sandpaper to make the cut in the footing smooth...
I'm interest how your reverse footings will be holding up, would be too bad when the shafts aren't durable with the time invested in them, Post some pics when you have one finished.
greetings
stefan
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I too would love to see the look of the reverse footing. Please post a pic if you can.
Russ
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The only reasons I've been able to come up with for why the footing is normally split is that many people add the footing to an already rounded shaft and to keep the overall weight down.
I don't quite understand the statement above. I make footed arrows using the footings from 3 riverarchery, a jig and an already round shaft (5/16 port orford cedar) I use footings beacause they are beautiful but also to improve FOC, it sounds silly to me that when an footing is added to a round shaft this is done to keep the weight down..Hardwood is heavier than cedar, pine or spruce either way it will improve FOC,..
There's a small difference in the amount of hardwood footing versus the shaft with the reverse footing containing a tad more hardwood and thus a tad more weight. Since this is my first time making footed arrows and thinking about FOC, I'm not sure if the difference would be noticeable or not in the FOC calculation. In any case, that's what I was referring to.
Delivery of the dowel cutter is scheduled for tomorrow, so I hope to have some samples finished by the end of the week.
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Make the saw cut at right angles to the grain on the footing. Clamp behind the cut. Take your time making the v cut and get it small enough to fit. Glue. Add more clamps as needed. Footings can be done with hand tools. More on my site. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/archer.html
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Here's a photo of the reverse footing. I can't wait to see how the color of the bloodwood brightens up when it is finished. This weekend we're going to make up a bunch and hopefully be able to start barrel tapering them also.
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Before you go to any great effort to make more and finish these off, I would suggest that you shoot a few shots at some semi hard target to see if there is any ill effect on the shaft itself - as I fear you may end up splitting the shaft itself. Hopefully I am wrong - but - i cant help thinking that the hard footing "wants" to open the shaft with every impact.
Looks good, though - I am sure they will finish up beautifully.
Russ
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Before you go to any great effort to make more and finish these off, I would suggest that you shoot a few shots at some semi hard target to see if there is any ill effect on the shaft itself - as I fear you may end up splitting the shaft itself. Hopefully I am wrong - but - i cant help thinking that the hard footing "wants" to open the shaft with every impact.
Looks good, though - I am sure they will finish up beautifully.
Russ
The only way that would happen is if the glue fails and if the glue fails it wouldn't matter which way they are made. But yes, I plan to make and test some before making all of them.
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The glue is the pivot point in any test of a footed arrow. Two wing, four wing, 12 wing reversed with a half sumersault matters not if your glue up is bad.
Good luck with your project. The first one looks mighty eye candy-like.
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That is a lovely job!
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Looking good!! I made a bloodwood (massaranduba) flatbow and it gets a beautiful colour when finished, not as pretty as purperhart but working with purperhart sucks. Did you use the dowel cutter? If so, do you like it?
Stefan
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Looking good! Can't wait to see em dolled up and finished. Josh