Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: fishfinder401 on March 18, 2012, 08:28:16 pm
-
last week Jake Fenwick( agincourtwarbow) took a trip down to rhode island, so naturally we had to do some shooting, this was the first time i had shot warbows with someone else and it was a blast ;D . i also finally have some resemblance of a shooting form which with a little training on the second day let me get to a full draw on my 140lb hickory, i admit though, i still have a LONG way to go with that bow ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6FCTavM3BI&feature=g-u-u&context=G276fa67FUAAAAAAAKAA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6FCTavM3BI&feature=g-u-u&context=G276fa67FUAAAAAAAKAA)
-
Nicely done Jake, your technique reminds me of a certain EWBS member.
Noel, please get yourself a lighter bow, you are a long way off that one yet.
-
i think if i was shooting with him i'd stand on the other side, seem's to be well overbowed, Bub
-
like i said i have a ways to go, but i can pull that bow to full draw only need to start working on technique more ( allot more) and get more practice in
also the reason i was leaning more to that side is i was aiming more in that direction and as far as getting a lighter bow, i have a yew im working on now hopefully to be 120lbs, but the ay i see it, if you haven't reached your limit and you aren't pushing yourself as hard as you can you will never make any reel progress
-
What a great time that was! Great shooting was indeed had and hopefully much more in the future.
Well what I can say about Noel and his 140lb bow (which it is, let me assure everyone that I can second that claim) is that I saw a huge improvement between the two days, he a very strong chap and I think we will see him pull it fully soon enough. It may be that for the time being it is a little heavy for him, but after shooting for five of six full hours one day and on the Thursday ready as ever for another full afternoon gives me confidence that he will do it, on day two of the video it should be noted that both of our distances improved, a surprising amount. I do think that once he finishes his 120lbs, he be able to build much more of a technique and have a safer base as weights increase!
Nicely done Jake, your technique reminds me of a certain EWBS member.
Thank you very much Ian!!! It is always great to hear from a fellow EWBS member, especially one in England, there isn't much to go by across the pond. My 122lber should be here next week, hopefully my form will not be affected when pulling it! Will let you know when she arrives. Hope you are well mate,
-Jake
-
You kept that quite Jake, you should set yourself a target distance to achieve with the new bow. Who is making it?
-
Aye I guess I did, not in me mind though haha! It is another Poletti bow as I am quite happy with the distances my last one achieved, I figure that will be my last or second last bow that I buy, the rest I must make myself. A target distance eh?! Very good idea, I will have to think about, If i were to ask you the same question with a new 122lber, what would your reply be?
-
Noel i gaurantee that you can out pull me, but it's like lifting weight's, you dont start out benching 400#, you work your way up and develope good form, i dont shoot warbows but i am impressed by what you can draw, your a stout son of a gun ;), personally i would drop down to a # that is heavy but that you can draw and keep form, shoot it every day, the #'s will go up faster than you think, Bub
-
thanks jake, and one thing i must say is that what has helped me with my technique the most is actually shooting with someone who has a a good technique. if anyone has any critiques of my technique that would help, please tell me becasue without haveing someone like jake or anyone who shoots a warbow nearby, you huys are the best way for me to improve my technique, every few weeks i am going to take a new video to show my progress with this bow ( and hopefully other bows ;) ) so anything you see that needs to be changed, other than the bow ::) , let me know.
thanks
noel
-
Noel - how old are you? You need to be very careful with training when you are still growing - take that from someone who has been there done that! You NEED a bow that allows you to comfortably come to full draw. Correct technique is paramount - as soon as you start pushing weights and start to lose form that when the injuries happen, the last thing you want is to be carrying injuries for life.
Well done anyways and don't think i'm criticising you.
I must say that I think that the little jump when loosing (Jake)is not helping anything, also I don't understand if you are shooting for distance why you hold the bow at full draw for so long. A momentary pause is all thats necessary - not a hold.
-
I must say that I think that the little jump when loosing (Jake)is not helping anything, also I don't understand if you are shooting for distance why you hold the bow at full draw for so long. A momentary pause is all thats necessary - not a hold.
Greetin's
Well over on this end of the lake as I have said to Ian, there is not to many others in which to ask in person and shoot with to build technique, so I have done what I can through the EWBS to build technique and adjusting it to suit myself, I have tried many different variations. Well I have never been one to talk science into why I use a certain form, I feel there is no need, I think results speak much more true. The form I have built is based after as I have said different forms in the EWBS (primarily the rolling loose) and those members shoot with distance results I have not personally seen matched. So that speaks for itself in my mind. However I have tried a more snapshot loose rigid like a target shooter, it is even scene in some of my other videos, and my distances were far inferior compared to now. As for the jump, it is not something I plan out with my mind, on release I go with the energy, I don't fight it, when the pressure is released it is natural to go forward with it, soon it becomes one smooth motion. I could not have got that quarter pounder further with a 90lb had I not used that form.
Noel I think with time technique will come but by being able to use a medium ground bow, it will greatly aid you and quicken your climb. Watch how other people do things try it out and let your distances be the judge. A huge difference can be seen in such a little time between the video you posted and my new one, good on ya mate! I look forward to the future!
-
mikekeswick, i am a few weeks away from 18, and i am very careful while training with these kinds of things and i have leaned when my body is saying enough is enough, i have also been, and as far as needing a bow i can comfortable come to full draw with, i have to say, i look a lot more uncomfortable in the video than i really was, probably part of it was from still developing a technique and i have to agree with Jake with the jump thing, i can personally attest that when we shot that way we got better distance and on some shots it was inevitable. by the way, does anyone know of a placein the us that sells hickory boards 80+in long for backng? ( if you do pm me, please don't post the link ;) ) as that would allow me to use the nice 7ft ipe board i have waiting for a backing which would allow me another 120-130lb bow to train with
thanks
noel
-
one thing i must add, as far as me needing a lighter bow, any donations are welcome ;D ;) ::)
-
Hey Noel, if you don't get any takers on your hickory board let me know. Almost all the sawmills down here saw hickory and pecan and I can probably request them to cut you a board you can rip up for backing strips or maybe even a backing strip directly if you give me the thickness. Do you care about grain orientation? The only problem we're going to have is in shipping. You'll pay a premium for something that long, but I don't know what it will be. I can ask at the PO next time I send something. Have you checked sawmills up your way? Hickory is pretty widespread.
George
-
There are lots of really good backing woods, and if you are struggling to find longer boards I wouldn't worry as Ipe works better as a shorter bow. You can get the weight you want from a 72" Ipe bow.
-
i know i don't need that length, it just feels better to me, but if after a while if i cant find anything longer, i might just do a 72, i have enough for 2-3 bows in it anyway, so i will have other chances
-
wait a second... i just remembered that the one last stave i have, is a 76inch hickory ;D, i guess i can use a cut from that, i cant believe that didn't occur to me earlier
-
george, im not sure of any sawmills, but i have checked a few hardwood dealers with no luck yet, as far as grain orientation i would prefer quarter sawn but if i cant find anything local i might take you up on that, i did find bamboo boards in California but i'm not sure i even want to know the shipping on those
-
Great video Jake and Noel! you both looked like you had a fantastic time practicing together and I can't wait to meet and shoot with both of you!
-
Noel, I just watched some of your video and I must say I am very impressed!!! 8) I could only watch 7 minutes of it before I was totally worm out! How many arrows did you and Jake shoot each day? ;)
I remember just a year and a half ago I had to ask a young man to drop out of the PA bow trade(not an easy thing for me to do!). I didn't know what you were capable of becuase you had only been on PA a short time and you kept talking about 140# bows(most of us shoot less than half that weight). I figured you were just another wanna be with lots of dreams and that's about all. I knew after our exchanges that you were a fine young man and probably disappointed but still the gentleman! 8) ...and here you are doing what you said you were going to do. I salute you for your achievements so far.
Now another lecture! ::) Please listen to these guys that have been studying and utilizing this method of shooting heavy bows. They have the experience of using this type of shooting but also lessons they have learned from their mentors and from history. Your body is still young(kinda hard to believe after viewing the video) and growing. Too much of anything now in your development will affect you in the future. At 62, I see where I went wrong long ago but it is now too late.
I know where your goal lies and I want to know you when...but please work up to that goal from a reasonable weight and improve your personal method as you go.
Again, let me say..I salute you! 8)
I do have an observation question about the Italian yew warbow though. Is it whip tillered? It doesn't have the classic arc of a circle tiller but seems to have a stiff midsection.
-
thanks pat ;D , and i am working on a lighter bow so i can work on my technique more, i jsut need to get the steamer set up to take out some side bend, then its on to finishing it up. i dont expect to be able fully use this bow to its limits till mid summer, but in tht time i will hopefully finish the yew im working an ( aiming for 120lbs) and the two hickory backed ipe, one will be around 110-130, the other will be 150is( not going to use it till the very earleist, end of summer, early fall,
as far as how many arrows we shot, we would use about 6 each, each volley with retreaving them was mabey 10-15 minutes.... so with 5hours the first day and 3 the second.... wow when i think about it thats more than i realized
thanks for the complements, and even though it takes some time for the hints they give me to sink in, i will eventually utilize them ;)
noel
-
Jake - Full draw with 120lb would shoot 220 without any technique. I think with a little work you should build up to 240yds. I think a good target would be 240 with a standard, but you are going to need good arrows to get that distance. For a livery I would minus 10yds.
-
Ian, what distance should i be getting with my hickory, the best i got that day was 225, with either a standard of livery( not sure which)
-
Hi Noel, Self Hickory tends to be very heavy in mass and thus slower. What you will find is that lighter arrows don't necessarily go further than heavier ones, but for the sake of comparison full draw at 45 degrees I would think 230 would be very good. However I would expect a Livery* arrow to go about the same. If you are already getting 225 then you are doing pretty well, was that paced or measured?
*If you don't know what the Livery arrow is just google the spec from the EWBS webpage.
Also something you both may find useful, google earth has a range finder tool. Its how I measure my distance when I'm shooting on my own.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/GoogleEarth.png)
-
ok, thanks, i usually use google earth, but for that one i paced, i did notice when we were shooting the hickory for its weight was significantly slower than jakes yew, and even my 70lb ash
-
I have made a self hickory before, but at the weight we shoot its not the best. I ended up planing the belly off my bow and putting a new belly on it making it into a laminate, it became a much better shooter.
-
Thanks Ian! I appreciate that mate, will be out in the fields with 'er tomorrow, will see what I get!
Noel shot one of my Livery arrows for the 225 yards, but yes it was paced.
-
Im new to the whole elb and elwb scene and I have some elm billets I can splice together but i was worried on weight for the bow, any suggestions? :-\
-
Jake,
There are a number of tweaks that you could do to add distance to your shooting but you and Noel look like you have all the raw material there. Firstly, you are not consistently achieving a 45 degree shot and Noel is shooting very. This is easy to sort out and you are doing the right thing videoing your technique. What I thought I was doing and what I was doing were 2 different things the first time I saw a video of myself. Secondly, by the way you are holding the string you may not be getting a clean loose. Do your arrows waggle a lot when they leave the bow? This adds serious drag.
Mike has a good point about holding at full draw but you are right actions speak louder than theory. His is an actual example. At the recent EWBS shoot a 140lb heat-treated ash bow made by Jaroslav Petrina was shot with the technique where there is a hold at full-draw. I think it’s fair to say that any bow made by him will be excellent. It’s also fair to say that the archer who shot it has a lovely clean loose and always nails his angles at full draw. His arrows will be well made excellent too. Juxtapose this distance, shot in good conditions, of 199 yards with that achieved by Al Aston at the recent Warbow Wales shoot with a non-heat treated Welsh ash bow of 223 yards. Al’s bow was 12lbs lighter and the arrows were commensurate, the Warbow Wales Mary Rose arrow being slightly heavier. The only other difference was the fact that that Al shot with a hemp string but that would not give you a performance advantage over fastflite, obviously. The results are here...
http://warbowwales.com/#/st-davids-day-shoot-2012/4561759550
I think the difference in performance is due to the hold at full-draw that wastes energy through hysteresis. This is all the more apparent in woods like ash and hickory that has high hysteresis in the humid UK. It’s not as apparent with yew and with the rolling loose you are adding a certain amount of arrow speed through body movement, maybe up to 3 fps. However, I doubt it’s going to make up for it with white woods.
It will also be kinder to your bows not to hold at full draw as this means less strain on the bow. If anyone has access to a shooting rig and a chrono then it would be interesting to see the fps difference in a 2 -3 second hold.
Keep up the good work; it's a nice vid too.
Jeremy
-
Very impressive!! Just a word to the wise ( following up on pat's comments), be careful not to blow out your shoulder as you will not be young forever. I am only 32 and have been doing construction for 15 years and I can tell you that in a short time you not only feel it the next day but you will feel it for a week! All the old timers always told me "your back is fine till your 29" and how true it is. Also a archer from 1000 years ago that shot bows like this every day only lived to maybe to 30 years old if that. So take care of your self. Enough of me playing mommy. Once again very impressive!!! Maybe I am just jealous I can not even come close to those weights :'(
-
Jake,
There are a number of tweaks that you could do to add distance to your shooting but you and Noel look like you have all the raw material there. Firstly, you are not consistently achieving a 45 degree shot and Noel is shooting very. This is easy to sort out and you are doing the right thing videoing your technique. What I thought I was doing and what I was doing were 2 different things the first time I saw a video of myself. Secondly, by the way you are holding the string you may not be getting a clean loose. Do your arrows waggle a lot when they leave the bow? This adds serious drag.
Mike has a good point about holding at full draw but you are right actions speak louder than theory. His is an actual example. At the recent EWBS shoot a 140lb heat-treated ash bow made by Jaroslav Petrina was shot with the technique where there is a hold at full-draw. I think it’s fair to say that any bow made by him will be excellent. It’s also fair to say that the archer who shot it has a lovely clean loose and always nails his angles at full draw. His arrows will be well made excellent too. Juxtapose this distance, shot in good conditions, of 199 yards with that achieved by Al Aston at the recent Warbow Wales shoot with a non-heat treated Welsh ash bow of 223 yards. Al’s bow was 12lbs lighter and the arrows were commensurate, the Warbow Wales Mary Rose arrow being slightly heavier. The only other difference was the fact that that Al shot with a hemp string but that would not give you a performance advantage over fastflite, obviously. The results are here...
http://warbowwales.com/#/st-davids-day-shoot-2012/4561759550
I think the difference in performance is due to the hold at full-draw that wastes energy through hysteresis. This is all the more apparent in woods like ash and hickory that has high hysteresis in the humid UK. It’s not as apparent with yew and with the rolling loose you are adding a certain amount of arrow speed through body movement, maybe up to 3 fps. However, I doubt it’s going to make up for it with white woods.
It will also be kinder to your bows not to hold at full draw as this means less strain on the bow. If anyone has access to a shooting rig and a chrono then it would be interesting to see the fps difference in a 2 -3 second hold.
Keep up the good work; it's a nice vid too.
Jeremy
Hi there Jeremy!
Thank you very much for all that information! It is very much appreciated. Those most definitely are great results! When posted on the EWBS I got some similar feed back (Ian especially has given me much aid) about that I hold too long. I have heard that from beginning of draw to end should be about 3 seconds so I have tailored my technique to fit that. I also am now trying to (slowly and safely) be on top of a new 122lb Italian yew while not loosing my form. I wish I did have access to a shooting rig, but do not, I have been going solely on distances. (There are not too many of us warbow Canuckers ;) !)
Nope, I rarely ever do I see my arrows wobble in flight, may I ask what you mean by how I hold the string? I have been working on pulling a little more on release so my fingers come back instead of around. Is this what you mean?
Well thanks mate I do appreciate your advice, I will also work on those angles! Hopefully soon I will post another video, and a change for the good will be seen!
Again, many thanks!
-Jake
-
I think its the pull to the right every time you release Jake, (correct me if I'm wrong Jeremy) it wont allow the arrow to leave the bow smooth, any drag here will reduce the distance. Have you read Toxophilus, and the Art of Archery both books contain very good information on how you should shoot a bow. Namely holding the string on the 2nd groove of the first finger, middle of the middle finger, and the last groove of the ring finger. That puts your arm in a position where you can draw and release better.
-
Thanks Ian, that's what I was going to say. A lot of people find a tab better too but Al uses a glove that has gone really hard at the finger tips and his distances are unsurpassed with war arrows.
-
Interesting,no though I have heard much of it, I have not read it though I obviously should! I have always shot with a tab, using the third joint (from the hand) and never had trouble with me finger tips, I have never heard of one on each joint. Cheers both,
-
i have also never heard of holding it on different places, i usually jsut use my second joint on my fingers, ill have to try that though, and i found out the other day that my full draw is actually 33 inches which really surprised me, but unfortunately this extra drawlength gave my hickory bow a little more set and it dropped some weight :'( , i did some heat treating when i first made it, but would it be worth it to do some more heat treating to bring it back to its original weight?
thanks
noel
-
Fishy, i thknk this is the second time venturing over here and im glad i did, what a cool video! Keep up the good work ;)