Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Bert on May 23, 2012, 05:17:24 pm
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I'm starting this thread to keep track on the progress of making my first Osage bow and as a means to share this experience with y'all.
The purpose is to document the work I do, and if you feel like it you can pitch in with advice or words of warning :laugh: .
I'm sure there has been threads like this one before.
The plan ? Making my first Osage bow. Other than that, nothing much is determined.
My drawlenght maxes out @ 80cm (about 31.5"), and I'd like to end up with 30kg of weight (66 pound bow, heck let's say between 60 and 65#)
The stave I'm starting with is an Osage stave I've had store for over 10 years now.
(http://s14.postimage.org/bpbpijcep/DSC_0003.jpg)
It measures just over 1.5meter long (just shy of 60") and 5-6 cm wide @ the tips, 7cm @ the center (that's a fair 2" @ tips, 2.75" @ center)
I started scraping the back of the bow to meet the next growthring despite it being a full unviolated growth ring allready. This because it was coated with a sealant.
(http://s18.postimage.org/fb4pgfrnt/DSC_0002.jpg)
(http://s18.postimage.org/9bgycs6vd/DSC_0004.jpg)
Might back the bow with sinew to give it extra strength, in any case I'll want my back reduced to a nice clean growthring.
Never chased an Osage-ring before so i was anticipating the earlywood layer solely on what I heard it was like.
Closing in on that second ring :
(http://s18.postimage.org/n6f8v91ah/DSC_0008.jpg)
The wood is getting thin and shows strands; I'm getting close !
(http://s18.postimage.org/yk1s6gbt5/DSC_0013.jpg)
Actually this isn't what i expected to be ..; Where is that layer of spongy soft earlywood ?
Its not like I tought it would be ..
(http://s18.postimage.org/yk1s6gbt5/DSC_0013.jpg)
It feels like I went from the one ring of latewood directly to the other .. no noticeable earlywood transition ..
(http://s18.postimage.org/lig3glnex/DSC_0017.jpg)
Its very clear to me I've reached the second growthring :
(http://s18.postimage.org/tp8386dhl/DSC_0020.jpg)
(http://s18.postimage.org/of34gvt8p/DSC_0022.jpg)
I'll continue from this point with my draw knife. Ever so carefull not to violate this 'new' ring.
To be clear : the purpose is to keep this 'new' ring to its most full width right ? To voilate it, means going straight trough, not having less thickness in a certain area ?
Cheers, Bert
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Thats not like any osage I have seen. Interesting pieces. Looks like locust from my seat.
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Sure does look different.......
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Could this be because this stave seasoned somewhat longer then usual ?
I have been pretty certain that this is Osage. Anybody can relate this to 'older' Osage staves ?
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Older the osage the darker brownish red it gets outside and even some inside.
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That's osage, Bert. Looks like the goods in my pile! ;D Nice and straight. Remember, fellas...it's gotta be UV light (i.e the sun, tanning bed, etc.) to turn osage darker brown. Ever cut into a 50 year old fencepost? It ain't brown inside...it's yellow! Mine gets stored in the basement up in the floor joists...not a lot of light gets to the staves up there. Also, cameras and computer monitors can lie a bit when it comes to color :)
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I have to say;
This wood was sold to me as Osage, by a trustworthy man. Also, this wood has been sitting in a sealed cardboard package in an unlit shed for more then 10 years, not been seasoning under a carport or so.
The picture has been taken under the white flurecent light at my workbench, so that might play tricks on my eyes as well.
Still, it doesn't explain why the wood feels unlike the Osage I hear people talking about ?
The very thin section between the rings feels 'brittle', not really spongy.
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The very thin section between the rings feels 'brittle', not really spongy.
That is a great discription of all the osage I have chased. It might 'LOOK' spongy, but you can hear it 'crackling' as you put a drawknife through it.
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Bert skim a bit off an end. It should be electric yellow, or close to it. You will get a good view of your rings that way too.
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I'm making my first right along with you. Using a scraper on the final ring. It doesn't crackle like it does with a drawknife, but you can definately feel it to the touch. It feels rough compared to the heartwood. I was told this weekend by some experienced bowyers that if you have a really thick ring, that a slight dip into it won't hurt.
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When you switch from scraper to drawknife the earlywood will have a completely different feel to it. I used to use a scraper for chasin the last ring on osage but I use only a drawknife now.
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dont know why no one caught this yet.....
in short....you will have to flip the tips and sinew back that to reach 31.5" on a 58"ntn bow pulling 60+ pounds....and it will have to bend thru the handle......im not even sure I could make that an unbacked bow drawing that far without breaking,and if it did hold it wood take lots of nasty set.
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If there is still any question as to I.D. ,Osage contains a water soluble dye . Put you shavings in some warm water and it should turn the water yellow.
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Yikes...good catch, blackhawk! Totally blew through the intended specs. Advice well given.
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Agreed keep your draw length shorter.
Also LOOKS like locust to me from here but put those shavings in warm water and the water should turn vivid yellow.
I would suggest using a drawknife to get close to your final back ring then switch to the scraper. I know people might say that it's safer to just use a scraper but I don't think so. When you have so much wood to take off scraper can get boring and induce the wrong mindset. The drawknife will allow you to do the same job better and quicker.
When you say sinew back it to add strength....it's a little more involved than that. Sinew has a lot less stretch resistance than osage so you would theoretically be making it weaker.....what sinew can do is either protect a dodgy back,protect a tension weak wood (juniper) or allow a bow to be pulled further than if it was a selfbow. If you just slap sinew onto a wooden bow you will likely make the it slower than if you left it as a selfbow - trust me this IS true! If you want to get the most from sinew the bow must either be short or fairly heavily reflexed. Personally I wouldn't back that stave - make it a bendy handled bow and try to creep up on your drawlength but stop when you have 1 inch of set.
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Splice the two and you have all the lenght you need.
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@ blackhawk: Yes good point, was meaning to get back to those specs.
The 2 Staves I have are relatively short (60").
@ mikekeswick: how do you suggest I keep my drawlenght shorter ? the 31" is based on my personal (body) draw lenght.
Would'nt it be uncomfortable to shoot a bow of wich you can't 'full draw' ? I agree on your approach with the draw-knife. Scraping all of the back would be enormously frustrating to me.
@ PEARL DRUMS: Splicing is an option, altough for a first time on Osage i'd like to keep it simple ?
If backing the bow (be it sinew, rawhide,linnen, ..) wont add the some weight to it, what are the other options ?
Recurving ? Would a Holmegaard design work better for me ?
Facts are I would like to get a decent poundage out of a 60" Osage stave. Question is, what tactic/design should a adopt after my first ring is done chased ?
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How many bows have ya made? I can think of two designs that might get ya there,but ya better know what your doing,and are not simple as you want it to be. I know i could get that stave to 30" without too much set taken unbacked.
One is a R/D bend thru the handle mollegabet....not an easy build
The other and prob more easier of the two is attaching siyahs to the ends to lengthen your stave.
Man..your really limitied to how far that stave alone can draw unbacked...you cant and shouldnt try to force things further than they should. Sounds like you really dont know your draw length,and you just took a body measurement. Plus making it a bend in the handle bow will lose you an inch,and youd be pulling closer to 30".Even if your draw is what you say it is,its real easy to shorten your anchor up and still shoot well and comfortably. I gave ya two designs,but i really dont recommend trying them if thats how far youll draw it unbacked,and if you dont have a good sense of bow knowledge already under your belt.
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Would a Holmegaard design work better for me ?
No, Holmegaards have even shorter working limbs than same length longbows so a holmegaard design would actually be more overstrained. The best way to shorten your drawlength is to simply bend your elbow a little more but still draw to the corner of your mouth, thats what I do when Im shooting a short drawlength bow. 31" is a long draw length. Have you actually nocked an arrow and drawn and marked it at your drawlength? I used to think I drew 29" but then when I had someone mark my arrow I figured out I was only drawing 28" most of the time.
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First things first... My experience tells me that your wood is black locust. If thats true you probably better get a different piece of wood. Osage and locust do not act the same and certainly dont handle the same stresses or beginner mistakes. It might be possible to force a locust stave into this mold, but there is a reason noone herds cattle with cats.
Determine if its osage and then make your bow fit the wood. Just my 2cents.
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So following up on the advice to check which wood this really is :
Bert skim a bit off an end. It should be electric yellow, or close to it. You will get a good view of your rings that way too.
I did this, sawed a slice off the tip, just a few millimeters. (Remember I only have 60" of stave :laugh: )
Did a scan of it, hires. This way I'm trying to eliminate the camera playing tricks with the colors. Looks like there is a little knot just on the tip of the stave.
(http://s16.postimage.org/ndnq0cvtx/Slice.jpg)
If there is still any question as to I.D. ,Osage contains a water soluble dye . Put you shavings in some warm water and it should turn the water yellow.
Also LOOKS like locust to me from here but put those shavings in warm water and the water should turn vivid yellow.
Also did that.
Shavings ? Check
Warm Water ? Check
(http://s14.postimage.org/h2zigmwe9/DSC_0001.jpg)
I let the shavings sit for an hour whilst I ran an arrant.
(http://s14.postimage.org/7wh7tcr5t/DSC_0002.jpg)
(http://s14.postimage.org/dyoujuflt/DSC_0003.jpg)
The water did turn yellowy-orange by the time I got back ..
let's have a show of hands, who says Osage ? And who thinks Black Locust ?
(PS: yes, I like to use pictures. It still baffles me that a picture taken in Belgium can be viewed and interpreted on the other side of the world in just 2 seconds .. :o )
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All I will say is I have never seen osage like that. That fresh end should be yellow as ever, its tan like locust. I dont know what it is for certain.
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Lol bow-names allready come to mind ..
'Orange Locust', 'Odd Osage', 'John Doe' ;)
If it IS Osage, as I bought it as being so, then thats 'good news'.
I still have some problems getting my desired specs out of this wood.. (or get near them)
*Edit*
I must say, the back, the shavings; they aren't as vivid yellow as I know Osage can be. (pictures and videos)
Then again, its not white wood, not like the light creme color Hornbeam has for instance ..
Could this have to do anything with the (rather unique ?) way these 2 staves have been seasoning for more then 10 years ?
They where sealed in a cardboard package, hibernating really ..
Maybe I discovered a new way of seasoning Osage staves ? Unaware I created 2 Über-staves ! :laugh:
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I store all mine in my basement with little to no natural light hitting them. They still get a tad brown on the outside. If I peel a splinter off its electric yellow like any and all osage I have seen with my own eyes.
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In response to the long draw-lenght & poundage ..
In a past lifetime I shot an old laminated recurve I bought second hand from the oldest member of the bow-club.
He won serveral cups shooting that bow. I took it from the attic :
(http://s11.postimage.org/vd5l3kwpf/DSC_0002.jpg)
(http://s11.postimage.org/vr6x36gsz/DSC_0004.jpg)
(http://s11.postimage.org/m7x89ptar/DSC_0005.jpg)
This bow has the following specs : (altough i can't unsipher all of it ?)
(http://s11.postimage.org/sa4v07hqr/DSC_0006.jpg)
I was told it is a 40# bow. Back then it was a little light for me, but shooting it a few times today made me aware my bow-muscles are out of shape ! ;D
Shooting some of my aluminium arrows and having the wife mark my arrows, I have to conclude that my draw-lenght is more like a 28" then 31" wich was indeed a body-measure ..
Feeling that I'm currently somewhat out of shape, and if this really is a 40#bow I'm seriously considering lowering the targeted poundage to 50#-55#.
This for 2 reasons :
1) Making myself a bow I can actually shoot without straining, till I'm in better shape :laugh:
2) Giving this 60" (osage ?) stave a fair chance to a do-able bow design
Hope to get in a more realistic range,
Cheers,
Bert
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Bert, I like where your head's at! I say make it a bow. Whatever wood it is. 50# @ 28" is much more realistic with that piece of mystery wood.
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Heya guys !
I'm back with some updates :
Had put off chasing my first Osage ring till my father in law returned from the cabin, bringing with him my trusty draw knife I've left there since my last build.
11 PM (I couldn't wait till morning :laugh: ) I started shaving off away from where I scraped to the second ring.
(http://s14.postimage.org/3n5p5vx8h/DSC_0002.jpg)
Not much later I started 'understanding' the stave. Was able to gauge the 'dept' I was on by the texture the wood had :
(http://s14.postimage.org/gsl7bzr41/DSC_0010.jpg)
The brittle strands (in the left side of picture) tells me I'm right into/onto the earlywood between the 2 rings latewood.
Around the small knot in the middle is the highest level, looks a bit like pine here in the picture.
Between that, the blond deer hide texture let's me know I'm not there yet.
Following up on the advice of mikekeswick:
I would suggest using a drawknife to get close to your final back ring then switch to the scraper. I know people might say that it's safer to just use a scraper but I don't think so. When you have so much wood to take off scraper can get boring and induce the wrong mindset. The drawknife will allow you to do the same job better and quicker.
I decided to chase the ring into the transition layer with a drawknife, to later finish it all up with my scraper :
(http://s14.postimage.org/kdh2v7vnl/DSC_0012.jpg)
Here the entire stave has been shaved down to about 2mm above the next ring :
(http://s14.postimage.org/m6jzjjgu9/DSC_0013.jpg)
From here on its an easy task to scrape away the remaining earlywood.
I did just notice that it's 12:30PM and I'd better keep some scraping for tomorrow :laugh:
(http://s14.postimage.org/5k2fagnwh/DSC_0016.jpg)
So I stopped here and came in to upload my pictures I took.
I did notice some knots in the back of the bow but none of them are big enough to worry about in this stage !
Tomorrow I'll finish up on my very first Osage (?) ring, and start pondering about bow design.
Thanks for reading, and as allways you're free to comment !
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Hey fella's,
Another update here : (+ shot some video ! ;) )
Done scraping the the last bits of earlywood from the back of the bow. Quite happy about how my first 'ring-chase' went.
(http://s16.postimage.org/yakrw5vth/DSC_0017.jpg)
Done !
(http://s14.postimage.org/heo6gmwwh/DSC_0003.jpg)
Video here (commenting & overlooking the knots I'll have to deal with) :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGOuFhi0oA0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGOuFhi0oA0)
After posting all this I've realised i might be able to do a better job on removing the earlywood, as I notice there are 'shades' of earlywood left on the back
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To get back to the "black locust or osage"-issue...
I do not know what species it is. But you can find out quickly with one little trick. Do you happen to have a UV light? Such as a 'black light' in the disco? If you don't have a UV lightsource yourself, use one from a supermarket where they use such a light to check banknotes for authenticity.
Take a piece of wood and hold it under the UV light. If it is black locust, it will fluoresce to a bright yellowish green (http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/locust,%20black/locust,%20black%209b%20s25%20q60%20plh.jpg) :) Osage will not change color.
Furthermore, compare these end grain pictures to your sample:
Black locust:
(http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/locust,%20black/locust,%20black%205%20end%20grain%20closeup%20s50%20q60%20plh.jpg)
Black locust:
(http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/locust,%20black/locust,%20black%2010%20end%20grain%20closeup%20s50%20q60%20plh.jpg)
Osage:
(http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/osage%20orange/osage%20orange%2015a%20s50%20q60%20plh.jpg)
Osage:
(http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/osage%20orange/osage%20orange%2010%20end%20grain%20closeup%20s50%20q60%20plh.jpg)
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Hey DarkSoul,
Thanks for the tip on the UV-light, I'll have to ask in a supermarket if i can use theirs as i don't own one myself.
Looking at the end grain pictures you posted only makes me more uncertain :-\ as to which wood it actually is !
In some area's the wood shows pores similar to those in the Black locust slides, then again other area's definitely look like the Osage grains .. :laugh:
I've come to realise you are quite a wood connoisseur, but to my untrained eye the grains between these 2 types of wood hold a lot of similarities !
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Settled on a (simple, but hopefully successfull) pyramid design for this bow, as suggested earlier in another post.
Also feel like whatever type of wood this stave turns out to be, this design in gonna work for it ?
I've started plotting out the handle with a pencil, some measurements are typical pyramid-handle measurements, altough I chose 4" and 3/4 of grip height, just to fit my hand somewhat better. (Read alot of people use 4" instead)
(http://s14.postimage.org/jabgypf69/DSC_0004.jpg)
I hope I can leave this 'knot-formation' out of the design.. But it might be too close to the handle ?
(http://s14.postimage.org/q21w1k45t/DSC_0008.jpg)
I'd really could use some insight on this one !
Thanks,
Bert
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has anyone thought of mulberry?
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has anyone thought of mulberry?
Nope, that one hasn't come up yet ! ;)
It's funny because I never doubted this to be Osage before you guys started commenting on it !
As I haven't decided on those knots near the handle I've started narrowing the limbs.
(Hey what can I say, I've got a day off work and my fingers are itching to make this bow)
Drawing out the limbs i soon realised I had some of the knots close to (or sometimes right on top of) my pencil lines !
Didn't use my bandsaw yet, felt like roughing out those limbs with my draw knife. It actually wasn't a big effort ?
I'm sure my -small- bandsaw was gonna have at least as much work as I had with the draw knife.
Question is; What would you guys do with these 2 knots ? :
(this one I'd leave in ?)
(http://s15.postimage.org/dy1gxfz7v/DSC_0001.jpg)
(this one out ?)
(http://s15.postimage.org/imhgsmoej/DSC_0002.jpg)
Thanks for your point of view !
Cheers,
Bert
PS: I've notices how smooth (nearly shiny) this wood gets when worked on with the drawknife. Is this an attribute of Osage, or rather BL ?
Maybe its not a telltale sign, but being used to white woods, this slick surface (even after using a very sharp draw knife) is new to me.
(http://s14.postimage.org/vcpf3x7yp/DSC_0005.jpg)
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that last pic looks alot like my first osage did when roughing out, and mine dide get very slick, but im note sure of it on other woods, i would say osage, but the color is just off, maybe it is mulberry?
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Follow the grain where it swirls around those knots Bert. The knot close to the tip I would follow the grain around the inside of the knot leaving it out of the bow. The other you could go either way, really thats up to you. Ive done it both ways, sometimes leaving the knots on the bowto add character. The wood looks kinda like osage to me, but then again it does kinda look like black locust too. Locust and osage both slick up pretty good.
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Yes, done doing just that. i've managed to keep the knots out of the limbs, hoping I didn't make'm too narrow.
I'm starting to reduce some wood from the belly of the bow.
This becoming a pyramid bow, does it aid the design to steam some reflex into it (central, even from grip towards limbs) ?
If so, should I do this before or after I floor-tiller it ?
Cheers,
Bert
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uhh....that is Osage...and FYI..osage does not have to be in direct uv light to discolor..I have quite a few stave inside that have change from bright yellow to a peach color and some even almost purple that have not seen the light of day since harvest....but it doesn't change under the skin...inside it is still yellow....gut
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As I said, I'm done roughing out the sides of the bow.
I've started reducing the belly to an uniform 1" on the limbs.
I noticed earlier there is some natural reflex in this one :
(http://s14.postimage.org/ode0vxl81/DSC_0001.jpg)
Side of he handle:
(http://s14.postimage.org/ho7hfwzw1/DSC_0002.jpg)
Front of roughed out handle:
(http://s14.postimage.org/z468vco8h/DSC_0003.jpg)
Front view:
(http://s14.postimage.org/z5g6orq29/DSC_0004.jpg)
Please say this looks OK ! ;D
I'm sorta winging it a little .. just following my gut feeling, taking decisions rationally ..
Comments are allways welcome !
Cheers,
Bert
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Nobody's mentioned Hackberry as a possibility for this wood also. Hackberry is quite yellow but can also age kind of a greyish brown like i see in some of those picks. Hackberry end grain can also look similar to what you have shown. I have recently determined the first bow I ever made was Hackberry and have always been puzzled by it's yellow color and osage-like look but I knew it wasn't osage by the look of it's bark.
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Dang, you guys must not have much experience with osage to label this wood anything else but osage.
Osage comes in every hue imaginable, light yellow, almost white, to dark brown through and through without ever having been in contact with sunlight. The dark brown stuff has usually been stored for years out of the light to season. There is also some very oily osage that has a much darker color to it. I have some of each in my shop right now and everything in between. I cut just about every piece of it myself so I know the origin.
That is a fine piece of osage you have Burt, don't let anyone tell you it isn't.
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i've only built one osage bow so far, but dont y'all think that two and a half is awfull wide for an osage bow of any design, mine's only 1 3/8" wide @ the fades, 66" ttt and it's a 70# bow, ya know what they say, it don't take much osage to make a bow, Bub
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Bub its short and needs to pull 30 something I believe. The design needs to be wide.
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Looks like you got it going your way Bert. Ive never made an osage bow wider than 1.5" wide but Ive never made an osage pyramid either. I usually build most of my bows with parallel limbs out to midlimb. Nothing wrong with startin out wide and then doing some side tillering later on if it starts to get too thin. As for adding reflex, thats just depends on what you want out of the bow. If you just want a smooth shooting, easy to string and reliable bow then dont bother with adding reflex. If you're wanting an arrow screamer then you might want to add reflex to it.
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Bert, looks like yo have it covered. You can do it! Jawge