Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Chicknlady on May 30, 2012, 11:07:36 pm
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Hi everyone, I am new to arrow-making and have hit a few snags. Back in March I cut a pile of multiflora rose stems, and finally got a bunch of the better looking ones stripped and rough-straightened, and want to finish some arrows from them.
Question one I'm almost embarrassed to ask, but with a tapered shoot which end is the nock-end?? Surprisingly even after reading a ton of stuff in books and on the 'net the subject rarely comes up. To a newbie like me, I just assumed that the smaller end should be the point-end, because it seems more aero-dynamnic that way... but a few lines here and there I caught seem to say different, that the big end should be the point-end so that it stabilizes the arrow faster or something. Any ideas?
The other question is one of spining. I put together a spine tester with a dial indicator and a two-pound weight, two supports 26" apart ... seems to work well-enough after testing some store-arrows. So far after a rough-spining, my rose shafts are all over the place, from 30 to over 60 pounds. Alot of the shafts are over 36" long... can you move a long tapered shaft up and down the spine tester to reach a certain poundage then cut it to length? I wasn't sure if the longer ends sticking off the supports could affect the reading somehow.
(http://i405.photobucket.com/albums/pp132/ballen67_2008/IMAG0543.jpg)
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Being fat end forward can improve arrow arrow flight because it contributes to "weight forward". The heavier weight in front sort of pulls the arrow along behind it, the fletching then has an easier time stabilizing flight.
And yes, before you ask, people have used chicken feathers to fletch arrows.
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Also, having the smaller end in the back (the nock end) helps the arrow be a little more forgiving in spine. However, I have some arrows I got in a trade that have the small end as the point end and they seem to work all right so it must not be too big a deal.
George
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Welcome! Looks like you are doing a great job at getting them straight. You might try lightly sanding one of the heavier spined shafts and then recheck it on your tester to see if it drops any spine weight.
The amount you cut off the length will affectively increase the spine. So by leaving the heavier spine shafts longer and the lighter spine shafts cut shorter you may be able to match them to your bow. They may look a little out of kilter but you really just want them to fly right, correct?
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Welcome to PA, ChicknLady.
You can make shoot arrows both ways but most folks use the large(butt) end the point. When I make shoot arrows I use a spint tester to find the stiff side of the shaft and that stiff side goes against the bow. You can also find the best "shaft" in the shoot by testing the spine along an oversized shoot. With the sourwood shoots I use and my arrows cut to 29" to 30"(for my 26" draw) generally the nock end is about 5/16" and the point end about 3/8".
When using tapered shoot shafts you can subtract 10# of spine weight just because it is tapered. It gets around the bow easier. For each inch over 28" you can subtract 5# per inch...so if you have a 30" shaft that has an actual spine of 60# it's effective spine will be 50# and if cut to 30" its effective spine will be 40#. Shoot shafts like with cane shafts are very spine tolerant. You can expect one to shoot well from a 40# bow up to a 60# bow in many cases.
Something you might not know about shoot shafts is you should use at least second year growth for the best arrows. Shoots with small branches where last years leaves were is what you want. Shoots with only leaves on them are first year growth. They will make an arrow but will be light and flimsey.
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Wow, guys, thanks for the replies! Alot to think about...
Pat B, when I was collecting those rose shafts, I didn't realize about the age of the shoots. I probably have a mix of ages, some stems had no branches, but were from the middle of the snarl where it was dark, they might have been several years old. Then some I'm sure were new shoots, they were arching way up high in the air above the snarl and had no branches either. I did notice when I was testing the shoots on the spine tester, shoots of the same size often tested way different... and some shoots had alot of taper, and some had hardly any at all.
I just need to get some arrows made and see how they do. Any general guidelines to at least aim for a spine-range to start? The little survival bow I made is 48" long, 30#, and my draw length is 24" with it. For some reason the big honkin' 26" 55# Easton aluminum arrows shoot best out of it, and my son's 28" 35# arrows fishtail.
JW_Halverson, I collected a bunch of wing feathers from the girls :laugh:, but they moulted last fall and they're a little beat up by now. I did get 24 nice turkey feathers off Ebay, they were less than $1 a piece after shipping. And I know of a park that has been taken over by geese, and the ground is literally covered by feathers. I might try the chicken or goose feathers first, get the hang of it, paint them hot pink so I don't lose them under the grass :laugh:
Fred, although the arrows might look weird to me with the big end at the point, I'll do it because I need all the help I can get!
One more question (glad you guys have patience!): I don't really intend to hunt deer with the bow, don't think I could shoot heavy enough to ethically (or legally??) do it... but squirrels and rabbits and grouse would be fun. What weight tips should I aim for? Should my practice arrows have the same weight as the hunting tip for small game?
Thanks so much!
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One of the simpliest, easiest to make and cheapest small game point is a "nutter". All you need to do is taper the point end just like for a glued on point and thread on a 3/8" hex nut. I add a drop of super glue to help hold the nut in place. With about 1/4" or so of the tapered shaft sticking out of the nut you get some penetration and the nut adds the shock. These work great on small game.
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Here are a few of my "nutters". The one in the middle shows the tapered point still intack. The others were like that but broke after repeated shooting up in the trees. They are still effectine even with broken points.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/nutters004.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/nutters005.jpg)
These fluflus are made from sourwood shoots and buffalo nut(pyrolaria pubera)shoots.
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Also, Jamie Burleigh wrote a nice article in the newest PA Magazine about arrows with rawhide small game points.
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If you gather enough goose feathers and have extra they would make an excellent trade item. Before moving out to the country I lived in town on a small lake, actually a large sandpit, and when the geese started dropping feathers we would go out and pick them up. They contain a lot of natural oil and hold up well in wet weather conditions.
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Thanks for the replies! So if you hunt small game, do you practice with these 'nutters, or similar weighted field points?
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Nutters (the arrows, not the people shooting them) are pretty good all purpose field arrows. They will even sink into a straw bale fairly well. They don't work so good on foam targets. But for roving around shooting at pine cones and rotted old ponderosa pine stumps they are awesome!
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i use the big end forward.incase you want to make native american style arrows,they use the small end forward.i have heard they do this because that is the end that pointed toward the sun and sky.good luck with your arrows.
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Seabass, that is really neat about the Indian's beliefs! It was probably considered bad luck or just crazy to put the big end on the point, even if it worked better. Kinda like women on boats... there went my career on Deadliest Catch before it started ;D ;D ;D!
I picked out two best rose shafts in 5 pound increments from #60 to #40 and got them sanded, straightened, and cut to length today... I think I have enough chicken feathers to do them up. I should get my archery order tomorrow, with the bow string and artificial sinew so I can get fletching over the weekend. And I'll go through my random nuts in the shop and weigh them on the scale, maybe try to find a standard 125 grain range to start at.
This is fun!
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Here is a fletching style that should work well with chicken feathers. It works very well with smaller feathers. Add a little twist and you'll get a nice spin on your arrow.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/tangential3fletch001.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/tangential3fletch004.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/tangential3fletch005.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/tangential3fletch006.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/tangential3fletch007.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/tangential3fletch008.jpg)
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...and another couple of point options.
The nail points are made for cane arrows but will also work with soft center pith shoots. These are made from 16d common nails with a wad of brass braised to the head and shaped into a cone. They weigh just about 130 grs. Some folks use duplex nails with the double head ground to a point.
The others are pieces of saw blades cut into 3/8"x2" strips. They are hafted into the shaft like with a trade point.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/targetpointsforprimitivearrows002.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/targetpointsforprimitivearrows003.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/targetpointsforprimitivearrows004.jpg)
...and these are some of the tools I use to make shoot and cane shafts...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/arrowmakingtools001.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/primitive%20archer/arrowmakingtools002.jpg)
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Shoots don't spine as close as dowls. I only spine to find the stiff side. Forget the spine and weight. If they shoot out of your bow use it. You only have to worry about spine and weight with speed you get with a compound.
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Pat, thanks for the pics! Unfortunately, the only chicken feathers to survive the winter in the coop are all the big wing feathers. Huh, and the weird thing is when I sorted them there were over twice as many righties and lefties. Not sure if they'll work yet. I need to make some straightening tools like what you show. What is the saw-like thing on the bottom? And the gadget with the metal hook and eyelet?
Crooketarrow, thanks for your post. I haven't even made a whole arrow yet and I'm tired of agonizing over the spine-issue!
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The saw-like thing is for cutting ceramic tiles with a hacksaw. It is the perfect size for cutting nocks in arrows. I made the osage handle for it. The tool with the eye and hook is a straightening tool. You rub it on the high side of a crook to compress the fibers and straighten the shaft.