Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: sadiejane on July 02, 2012, 05:01:10 pm
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http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1112648435/oldest-neolithic-bow-discovered-in-europe-at-la-draga-neolithic-site-in-banyoles/ (http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1112648435/oldest-neolithic-bow-discovered-in-europe-at-la-draga-neolithic-site-in-banyoles/)
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Saw this on paleoplanet as well. The bow is only 42" long? With it being sinew backed, I can't see this being that heavy of a bow. Definitely wasn't a war bow or meant for large game.
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I did not see any reference to sinew in the article posted. Was there further information on another site?
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Sounds like a lot of bows that Native Americans used. With a shorter draw these would have been perfect for hunting any game available or for warfare. Putting flint arrowheads on the arrows is all you need to make these into deadly little weapons!
Tiller
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Its made of yew and estimated to be 7400-7200 years old. There isnt any other specific details yet on it....as much as we would like to know more
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Yeah, the list of things I would like to know about this bow is longer than my arm! Sapwood vs heartwood, is the sapwood thinned or whole, or all heartwood, got any sinew backing, what is the cross section of the limbs at various lengths along the way, what style of nocks, are there telltale tool marks, and on and on.
With a little more information several people here could make copies and tell us what kind of draw this little brush buster shorty may have originally had. Dollars to donuts this bow would have had enough meat on it to take deer sized game with good arrows. A good hunter that can get spitting close to his game does not need an Agincourt bow to bring home the groceries.
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What you're describing sounds like a great masters thesis project.
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Sounds more to me like the desperate musings of a frustrated bowyer wanting to copy what is probably a Master's work.
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Interesting. I love this quote from the article, "These bows could have served different purposes, such as hunting, although if one takes into account that this activity was not all that common in the La Draga area, it cannot be ruled out that the bows may have represented elements of prestige or been related to defensive or confrontational activities."
Makes you imagine what type of "intellectual" wrote the article?!?!
"May have been related to defensive or confrontational activities."
Well hello?!?! Am I missing something here? If you have a bow in hand with bone tipped arrows and a mean grumpy person comes at you with a rock the owner of the bow may have used it as a defensive weapon...
Cipriano
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Artifacts from La Draga
Plants recovered from La Draga include cereals such as wheat and barley, peas and broad beans, and fruit such as wild grapes, blackberries, pine nuts and hazelnuts. Domestic animals includ cattle, goats, and pigs.
An enormous number of wooden tools has been recovered from the site, as well as ceramics, chipped flint, and polished stone objects. Bone and horn tools include bowls, combs, rings, eyed needles, spatulas, spoons, and bird bone tubes. Several bone arrowheads, ranging between 7-12.5 cm (3-5 in) were recovered. Most of the bone came from deer, sheep, goats and cattle.
Ceramic pots were hand-built from local clay tempered with quartz and mica. Most were small and medium-sized round pots, suitable for cooking. Large cylindrical jars with convex bottoms were used for storing food. Surface decorations on the pots include cockleshell and comb impressions, and applique.
Chipped stone tools were made from flint and quartz crystals brought from outside the area. Tools include sickles, piercers and scrapers made of microliths set into the handles of bone or antler. Groundstone adzes have been identified, as have small hand-operated mills for grinding grain.
Personal ornaments carved out of shell or animal teeth include beads, rings and bracelets. Numerous baskets made of twined sedges and rushes and reinforced by hazel branches were also found.
Looks like a lot more to do with archery was going on there than just the bow..
Cipriano
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If I had one wish it would be for a time machine......imagine being able to spend a few years with the people who lived then. I think the 'primitive' tag is somehow unfitting to the highly skilled people of the distant past. It's a real shame that so much knowledge has been lost in the pursuit of 'progress'.
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If I had one wish it would be for a time machine......imagine being able to spend a few years with the people who lived then. I think the 'primitive' tag is somehow unfitting to the highly skilled people of the distant past. It's a real shame that so much knowledge has been lost in the pursuit of 'progress'.
agreed
what some folks tend to forget is that tho the lifestyle of these ancient folk was "primitive", they were not.
they had the same capacity for thought, creativity and ingenuity that we do today.
maybe even more so as they not only had to, to survive and thrive, but they lived closely to all other living things
and had a much deeper sense of understanding of how the natural world work than most folks today.
somehow me thinks they were not so terrible off and starving all the time as is often depicted.
do i think they had it easy, no,
but they were quite capable and knowledgeable enough to know their environments and what it took to live.
and some north american native peoples not only lived but lived well before contact.
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I have a lovely short piece of yew, tighter rings and thinner sapwood than i've ever seen from English yew, it's also very heavy for a little branch....I think there might just have to be a replica made of this bow :)
Would the climate where this bow was found be dry enough for a sinew backing to be feasable?
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If I had one wish it would be for a time machine......imagine being able to spend a few years with the people who lived then. I think the 'primitive' tag is somehow unfitting to the highly skilled people of the distant past. It's a real shame that so much knowledge has been lost in the pursuit of 'progress'.
agreed
what some folks tend to forget is that tho the lifestyle of these ancient folk was "primitive", they were not.
they had the same capacity for thought, creativity and ingenuity that we do today.
maybe even more so as they not only had to, to survive and thrive, but they lived closely to all other living things
and had a much deeper sense of understanding of how the natural world work than most folks today.
somehow me thinks they were not so terrible off and starving all the time as is often depicted.
do i think they had it easy, no,
but they were quite capable and knowledgeable enough to know their environments and what it took to live.
and some north american native peoples not only lived but lived well before contact.
It sounds like we think the same on this subject. Thanks for the original post.
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Interesting. I love this quote from the article, "These bows could have served different purposes, such as hunting, although if one takes into account that this activity was not all that common in the La Draga area, it cannot be ruled out that the bows may have represented elements of prestige or been related to defensive or confrontational activities."
Makes you imagine what type of "intellectual" wrote the article?!?!
"May have been related to defensive or confrontational activities."
Well hello?!?! Am I missing something here? If you have a bow in hand with bone tipped arrows and a mean grumpy person comes at you with a rock the owner of the bow may have used it as a defensive weapon...
Cipriano
The part that gets my hackles up is pure speculation on the author's part..."if one takes into account that this activity was not all that common in the La Draga area". Just HOW does the author know what activity was common and uncommon in La Draga during a period in time where there was no written history?
Speculation bordering on pure prejudice. Apparently the writer has some preconception of a Noble Savage living at peace with the world around him. Never mind that if you had flocks/herds of domesticated animals, you had predators willing, ready, and able to hunt your critters. But no, they were Noble Savages, living in harmony. They had a wonderful sit-down dinner with the predators and served them a nice tofu curry and asked the predators to eat more wild carrots and fewer milk goats. Riiiiiight!
They also had pottery for the storage of foodstuffs. Ant and the Grasshopper, by Aesop. One group works their butts off gathering food for the hungry seasons, the other parties and revels. But in real life the ant don't feed the grasshopper. Heck no, the Grasshopper Clan gets all the boys together and sneaks in at sunrise to bash up the Ant Tribe to take their stored grain. No surprise they had bows, arrows, flint knives, spear points and so on. They probably had an arms race with the Grasshopper Clan until such time that both sides realized that food free for the taking was now costing LIVES.
"May have been related to defensive or confrontational activities." That qualifies as an understatement, doncha think? To prepare for peace, be ready for war...certainly they too were aware of this axiom. Ok, I surrender the soapbox now.
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So far, nobody has postulated a bow that short could have been a child's bow (just as today). It's not hard to imagine that archers started out young in those days like they would have in any age.
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Absolutely possible, Randman. That's one of the reasons I would love to make a few replicas of this bow to get an idea of just how stout the bow is at that length, width, thickness, and overall design.
But just because a bow is short doesn't mean it light in draw weight...just saying.
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Ever seen what a farm boy does with a bb gun-turn the clock back and he is doing it with a bow. Hunting keeps animals out of crops and the big game was controlled by dogs and young men hunting game. Because they don't have bones at the back of a cave they believe it was not going on. Maybe it was how they killed the cow or goat. I know farmers that take their animals with a gun turn the clock back and it makes sense.
One problem with digging something up and making a guess is that unless you make it and use it well it is just a guess.
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Yep, I love this site. I agree with everything said so far. Some of you
smart educated types say some more....it gives me a thrill. ;D
Great post sadie
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Plenty of younger hunters in those days. You pull your weight as soon as you're able.
Then again, we could be equating ancient man to a modern man's standard.
I'm wondering how many fully grown men, 5'5 or shorter in height in those days, would have a full draw length a few inches shorter than today's 6ft standard.
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This quote, " The study will permit the analysis of aspects of the technology, survival strategies and social organisation of the first farming communities which settled in the Iberian Peninsula."
Farming communities were much more advanced in all aspects of society than hunter/gatherer societies. The farming and the storing of food allowed them to develop governments, religions, laws, cooking, husbandry, farming and even rituals such as burying the dead. With free time or rather better use of their time, these communities could have developed bowyery or traded hunter societies for the bow. Much has been written about how much smaller in stature people were even just several hundred years ago; much less several thousand years ago. With smaller stature could come shorter bows and shorter draw lengths.. The fact that yew was used indicates IMO that trial and error at least in high quality bow woods had been achieved.
They "the archeological and academic" communities should be given a crash course in hunting, gathering, making, and building before they print articles with such gulfs of speculation.
Seriously...
Cipriano
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Excellent points LivingElemental and Criveraville.
Add to that our modern view that it takes a 50+ lb bow to hunt deer when in reality 30# draw bows have taken many a deer. A light skinned, light ribbed animal such as that doesn't require a huge impact to kill. Billy Berger's research with penetration of "bird points" bears this out. Where do we draw the line between an adult bow and a kids bow? And where did they draw the self same line? Did they even draw that line?
And on a hi-jacking note...didn't someone in here reproduce Otzi's bow?