Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Danzn Bar on July 08, 2012, 07:20:41 pm
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Had an osage stave with a lot of natural reflex. But the reflex is not the same on both sides of the roughed out bow. What should I do? Remove some or add some reflex to make the limbs equal, nothing at all an start tillering? The left side has about 6 1/2" and the right has about 3" of natural reflex. The stave ended up on the narrow side. It is 1 1/2" wide 71" long. Think of making a long bow pulling about 60# at 28". The rings are very tight at about 18 - 20 rpi. I've got some thin rawhide or some linen cloth to back it with. One more question if I decide to back it when do I add the backing, after floor tillering?
Comments are very much welcome.
Thanks
DB
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oh man that looks fun ;) i had one like that and just tillered it like it was turned out fine(tricky though) , but looking back it would have been a bit easier to work if i would have taken some reflex out of one of the limbs(i have another just like it thats probably what i'll do). yours also looks to have more reflex than the one i had .
as far as adding backing i add mine when i get it to the short string most of the time, sometimes after the bow is tillered.
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You're gonna have fun wrestling a string on that one, I would probably tiller it as is for a little while and see how it goes before I got the heat gun after it.
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1 1/2 " is plenty for an osage bow. What I'd do is put it on a form that would give an even 3" to 4" of reflex in both limbs and take out the side to side bend and any twist that might be in the stave. This way you will have a stave that will be easier to tiller and to hit weight. If you have not cut the back profile yet I'd do the corrections before doing that. That way you will still have plenty of limb and tip width for minor adjustments later. After you have done the corrections and cut the back profile would be a good time to add the rawhide (or linen) backing. either will work well to prevent splinters. I use rawhide backing on most thin ringed bows and especially if there are any knots ot pins.
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No such thing as too much. I would LOVE to get my grippers on a naturally reflexed stave as such.
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Pat B,
I think..... I met you friday at the Tennessee Classic this year......but i'm not for sure, were you there? I've got a caul with about 3" of reflex that I could use. But, What do you mean by " cut the back profile"? I'm leaning towards rawhide, but there is only a pin knot or two in the whole bow.
Pearl,
I have read most of your posts and really appreciate your comments, but what would you do with this stave???
Okie64,
Your right stringing, even on a long string could be an issue.
Again I'm a nooby to this stuff, but can't get enough info.
Any comments is apprerciated,
DB
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Badger,
After reading all of your posts................I would appreciate your comments..
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SA..............
So you would take the reflex down. how much? would you use rawhide or linen?
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I here what everyone is saying , but is there a point where too much natural reflex is not good?
DB
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I'm late to this thread, but I like to have even reflex and never more than a couple inches. I'm sure more reflex could make a higher performance bow, but I find it too easy to miss draw weight, put in early set, or break the bow trying to string it the first time. I also dislike differing reflex or deflex coming off the fades. If I had a form like PatB that would be perfect. Since I don't, I'd take that reflex out of the left limb about 4-5" off the fade so the inner third of the limbs are identical. If that makes the left limb have too little reflex to match the right I'd heat in additional reflex in the outer third of that limb.
Looks like a pretty stave, should make a great bow. Good luck.
George
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One problem with too much reflex,IMO, is that you end up over stressing the bow just trying to get it to brace...and it can be dangerous. I personally don't like working with too much reflex. 4" is about all I will put in a selfbow and I usually end up with 1" to 2" of reflex in the rested, unbraced bow.
For a bow 60#@28" you could easily reduce the stave from 71" down to 66" and still be safe at
1 1/2" wide.
By back profile I'm talking about the shape of the limb looking at the back. For a 66" bow you could start with 1 1/2" at the fades and out 6" then taper to 1/2" tips for now(reduce later).
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Surely the simple answer is:-
That which is beyond the capability of the length of stave/wood/design of bow.
E.G. It will be pulled out duning tillering to the deisred draw length weight.
I'm in the process of making a European Hornbeam bow from a V reflexed, assymetric wobbly stave, and the 4" of natural reflex all pulled out during tillering.
And as one of the guys said, the early set and extensive tillering required to even get to brace made it very easy to come in under weight.
Del
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Pearl,
I have read most of your posts and really appreciate your comments, but what would you do with this stave???
Take your time and tiller carefully and I believe you would be fine. Most of my flatbows start with that much if I can help it.
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I have an elm thats similar. I think i started with about 4 inches of reflex and lot a lof of it quite quickly, more so that i would have with a flatter bow. No idea if that was my fault but i had read that a lot of natural reflex pulls out quite readily.
Think i still have about 2.5 inches left and its nearly there and just have to move the string over a little as i dont like a center shot type.
I found it was hard to keep the bend even and not just mid limb so watch out for that. Also seems to lend its self to a bit of twist if not carefull too.
Also remember that with a lot of reflex it can seem very heavy at brace which can throw you off. Oh and a bugger to brace, my sides are still hurting.
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To add to what Del said...it is also according to what the bowyer can handle. Now, given a stave with natural reflex I'd even it off and go for it, if you can. Jawge
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I have an elm thats similar. I think i started with about 4 inches of reflex and lot a lof of it quite quickly, more so that i would have with a flatter bow. No idea if that was my fault but i had read that a lot of natural reflex pulls out quite readily.
I really think most of the time we lose reflex it's early set. In my case I hate to floor tiller and get to a short string as quick as I can. Trying to string a highly reflexed bow the first time is like pulling it 12" or more and most of the time it isn't tillered well enough or far enough to take it. Because the maximum leverage is right off the fades that's where the set occurs. Fortunately, it automatically creates that deflex/reflex look I like. Unfortunately, it represents lost performance, effectively negating the benefit I'd have gotten from the reflex in the first place. So, now I'm taking my reflexed staves further on the floor and on the long string. That makes me walk a tightrope of chasing good tiller while knowing I'm removing draw weight that will preclude much additional tillering if there's a problem on short string. So far as often as not I miss weight. This is why I prefer only mildly reflexed or straight staves. I need to sit down with Pearlie sometime and have him show me how to tiller big reflex.
So, for me, I would say a lot of natural reflex can be pulled out quite easily by the impatient bowyer. :-[
George
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I have done a few with 6 inches and like others have said,2 to 3 is about all I want. Yes sometimes you will wind up with 2 inches of reflex from a 6 inch start but if you think about it you have 4 inches of set,start with 3 and wind up with 1 you have 2 inches of set. Plus they are a bear to get braced and very easy to miss weight.I started with an Osage limb bow once with 6 inches and wound up with 4 inches of rested reflex,it was a screamer and very smooth to shoot,but that is hard for me to do consistently,so I would rather start with 2 or 3. :) :)
Pappy
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Hey George! 'Impatient Bowyer'? Have you been watchin' me through your magic spy glass again?
I've just pulled 4 1/2 " out of a pice of English Hornbeam...
I reckon you described the problems exactly as I found 'em.
Del
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I'm sorry my friend, I feel your pain. I'm sure you'd rather not be like me. Impatience is my worst enemy...that and not paying attention. Fortunately, as I get older I'm just plain slower at building and tillering. Gives me more time to realize I'm messing up. ;)
Been thinking about starting that piece of yew from your neck of the woods. I'm hoping a nice recurve similar to Gordon's would work well out of that stave. What do you think? It would make a nice hunting bow for this fall. Uh-oh, I'm hijacking again... :-[ No reflex in that yew (weak attempt to stay on-topic...).
George
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The question was how much is too much reflex. I feel if I don't hold at least 1/2 of what I put in I put in a bit too much or screwed up a bit when tillering. I built one the other day that is 75# at 28". I started with 3 1/2" reflex and finished with -1". After resting it goes back to 1/2" reflex. The bow is doggy. After resting the bow will pull about 82# on the first pull and the second pull 75#. They should be within 1# of each other so bow has been badly overstrained.
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The question was how much is too much reflex. I feel if I don't hold at least 1/2 of what I put in I put in a bit too much or screwed up a bit when tillering. I built one the other day that is 75# at 28". I started with 3 1/2" reflex and finished with -1". After resting it goes back to 1/2" reflex. The bow is doggy. After resting the bow will pull about 82# on the first pull and the second pull 75#. They should be within 1# of each other so bow has been badly overstrained.
Would you say losing introduced reflex is the same as losing natural reflex?
Sorry to thread hijack
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Dwardo, I won't say I am 100% sure of this but I believe that loosing relfex is the same as taking set and the wood just doesnot respond the same after taking set. The yew bow I recently built had about 1 1/2" natural deflex, yet the string at brace felt rock hard. The above mentioned bow started off about straight but now the string is softer than it should be for the weight bow it is.
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Dwardo, I won't say I am 100% sure of this but I believe that loosing relfex is the same as taking set and the wood just doesnot respond the same after taking set. The yew bow I recently built had about 1 1/2" natural deflex, yet the string at brace felt rock hard. The above mentioned bow started off about straight but now the string is softer than it should be for the weight bow it is.
I wonder again if there is a difference between the reflex caused by a natural growth curve and that caused by reaction wood, as in the tension wood half of a split taking reflex after splitting. Maybe the tension wood is used to taking the weight in some cases. I gather that the set caused early on is just dead mass which causes the sluggy feeling?
Rambling now.... ::)
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I wish I knew some way to test that out accurately beyond just experiencing and recognising it when it is happening. Their are several very easy steps to tell if a bow is being braced too soon. One you can simply lay your bow down on top of two elevated blocks, use a hand held scale to pull down on the handle and see what it reads to bring it down say 10", then check it again and see if it changed. If it changed the bow is being braced too soon. Same way with drawing a bow out on the tiller tree, anytime it drops in weight just from being pulled it is doing damage.
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What scale are you using to measure the weight? I don't think my bow scale is accurate enough to use for what you're describing.
George
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I have an ultra sport 50 digital fish scale. Goes up to about 125#
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Thanks for all of the responses. This is great information from very knowledgable people. Thanks for passing it along.
I think I'll do what Jawge said "given a stave with natural reflex I'd even it off and go for it"
dwardo,
You make me think if this is natural reflex or not. I found a pic where my friend and I split the log into staves. The log came from a tree that was leaning at a 30 deg angle back in the woods, the tree was about 40 ft tall. The log was split into quarters and only two of the quarters reflexed. By chance were the reflex staves on the top of the tree holding the weight? It didn't come from a curved log/limb to start with as Pappy noted, so would it be considered natural reflexed?
The question was how much is too much reflex. I feel if I don't hold at least 1/2 of what I put in I put in a bit too much or screwed up a bit when tillering. I built one the other day that is 75# at 28". I started with 3 1/2" reflex and finished with -1". After resting it goes back to 1/2" reflex. The bow is doggy. After resting the bow will pull about 82# on the first pull and the second pull 75#. They should be within 1# of each other so bow has been badly overstrained.
Good info.............I now know why my first bow (hickory flat bow) first pull after brace was 52# and there after was 47#. I overstress the bow during tillering. I need to remember this one.
gstoneberg,
I do not have enough experience tillering to understand your comment "Impatience is my worst enemy...that and not paying attention" Would you please take a little time and explain your comment a little more?
I don't consider good information "highjacking"
Thanks again for passing it along'
DB
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gstoneberg,
I do not have enough experience tillering to understand your comment "Impatience is my worst enemy...that and not paying attention" Would you please take a little time and explain your comment a little more?
OK. Let me explain it with the debacle that was my last highly reflexed bow, a yew shorty. It was about 52" long and each limb had about 6" of reflex. One limb was reflexed when I got it, I heated the other limb and bent it to match. It was supposed to be my hunting bow last fall. Here's a picture:
(http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6002/5996332247_da29fecd05.jpg)
I got it to floor tiller OK but it was a nightmare on the tillering setup on the long string. It would not stay upright but would flip the moment I began pulling weight. I had to hold the bow with one hand and and pull the rope to the pulley with the other. I'd remove wood and nothing would change, so I'd remove more wood and nothing seemed to change. Finally I decided to heck with it and tried to string the bow. I could not pull it far enough to get it strung. I tried again on the tree but unless I was holding the handle it would reverse on the tree every time. I could not pull with 1 hand well enough to really exercise the bow. I kept removing wood and trying to exercise it. After a couple more wood removals I tried to string it again. It strung easily this time with one limb weaker than the other. When I finished tillering it I had 35lbs at 27". I heat treated it hoping to get 10 more pounds. First pull after the heat treating it turned into toothpicks.
I was impatient, didn't work out a solution to the bow reversal problem and kept pushing because I wanted to finish the bow. I should have paid more attention to how much wood I was removing. Better yet I should have left it on the workbench the minute I got frustrated. Because I didn't do those things I messed it up and then broke it. Sadly, that's not the only example.
George
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George I dont use a long string on any bows let alone highly reflexed bows. I get them floor tillered to about 60-70#'s and brace them low. Then finish the tiller off and reduce weight. They generally stay put on the tree, if not I bar clamp them in place.
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I reflex all my staves while green and have found out and thing over 3 inchs (I keep all of mine to 2 inchs no matter what the wood) and keep it even to each limb. Over stress that limb crushs wood cells no matter what type wood it is and causes exture stress causeing set and string follow. So to much of a good thing is'nt so good. WHERE HAVE I HERD THAT ONE BEFORE
I do this becuase I do'nt use any heat on my bows anymore. You have 2 choises take some reflex out of the one limb by heating. Or tiller it like it is as you tiller you'll even out the reflex and hope it dos'nt put to much stess on the limbs.
It's to late now but if I could'nt have reflexed it when it was green. I'd cut it off and move my handle untill I have more even reflex. Then tiller it out untill the limbs matched.
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Though there may be such a thing, I have never had a stave with "too much" natural back set. I have broken bows from some that were too over strained, and come in under weight on others. But I dig the challenge. I've got to agree with PEARL DRUMS....Loves me some natural back set!
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I have finally got to the the point where I can talk about this stave. I started with dry heating the limbs and balancing them to 3 1/2" of back set (reflex) on both limbs. Had a hick of a time getting it to brace on the tillering tree, but once there, things went well. Took my time tillering one inch at a time. And ended up cutting 2" off each end and turning up the tips a bit. Final stats - 66" ntn with 3 1/2" reflex 56# @ 28". Got about 200 arrows through it. And my wife says " it's quick" She has seen me shoot a lot of arrows in the back yard. It is smooth to pull and no hand shock. 1 1/2" at the fades and 3/8" at the tips. With zebra and walnut tip overlays. Ended up backing it with a blue linen cloth due to the tight rings. Did a little paint job on the limbs with some silver paint. Also added a light colored leather grip that I quilted it with some black B50 thread. The finished is drying now, I'll post some pictures tomorrow night.
Badger, gastonberg, pearl, del, dwardo, Thanks for all your comments, it would not have ended up this good with out your your help!!!
Thanks again, pics tomorrow night.
Pasting it on is the thing to do ....Get the kids involved!!!!!
Thanks,
DB
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Reflex = And my wife says " it's quick" She has seen me shoot a lot of arrows in the back yard.
Cool beans there
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Had a hick of a time getting it to brace on the tillering tree, but once there, things went well.
I had an epiphany recently battling with a 3 1/2" reflexed osage stave myself. What helped me to get it ready for brace is using a big mirror set on the ground in front of me leaning up against a wall longwise, as I pulled the bow on a long string by stepping on the string and pulling up at the handle while watching the tiller in the mirror. I tillered it so well on the longstring this way that I was able to go straight from longstring to brace to fulldraw without any other tillering or tiller adjustments needed. And no it was not whip tillered, ;D.
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Here are the pic's
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Here is a few more............
Please comment on the money shot (full draw)
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That turned out very nice! Love the grip and artwork. Tiller looks like the top limb might be a tad stiff, not bad though.
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Really nice piece of work, DB. A really unique look and nice bend!
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Fine bow and that reflex makes my mouth water.
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Beautiful bow and excellent craftsmanship.
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That is a stunner! tiller, finish everything.
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That is a stunning bow. Brilliant job!
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That turned out fine! Great work. interesting thread - lot's of good discussion.
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So what is your answer to the question you asked at the start......."What is too much reflex??"
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And by the way...................you could and SHOULD win BOM with it. Its a perfect bow.
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First of all, Pearl ....................thank you very much for your comments, coming from you is very much appreciated, you have had many fine bow posts. BOM would be unbelivable to me, this is only my 8th bow. but I have been reading about and looking at the BOM for about 5 or 6 years. thanks again. Already thinking of my next bow.
I just got through putting about 80 shots thru her. After about fifteen minutes the reflex comes right back.
So, what is my answer to " what is too much reflex??" Good question Pearl...................At this moment 3 1/2" is definetly not too much! I have got a sister stave to this (I'm going to have to name her) bows stave that I am all ready thinking about.
Thanks again, Pearl and all who had comments.
DB
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That is a very nice bow. I love those stats, and that unstrung profile says fast. I am glad you got this discussion started. I have a vine maple stave with about 12" of reflex, half the reflex was already in the tree when I cut it, the other half resulted during drying. I have only tugged on it a little with a long string to check balance of limbs. I showed it to John Strunk at the Pope and Young shoot last weekend and he said e had never tillered anything with that much relfex, but if it held together it should shoot fast. I figure there is a reason he has never tillered anything with that much reflex...because it is too much. He also mentioned a guy he new tackled a highly relexed stave by cutting into billets and then gluing up the splice in a way that introduced deflex at the handle. I think that is the route I will go with this one, except maybe try steaming the deflex in. Hopefully, the deflex/reflex approach will me to keep some overall reflex, but not overstrain the limbs in tillering.
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Nice finished article. I think the key with these staves is as Badger said earlier keep a close eye on the weight the bow is pulling at a set distance when trying to brace for the first time.
CMB - I also would cut it in the middle and splice back together with deflex at the handle. Reflex/deflex bows shoot better than any other design in my opion.
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Many of the heat-treated recurves I was making 10 years ago started out with at least 8" of reflex and some had 10" or more. They are tricky to tiller till you get up to brace height and have the bow braced, tricky but not impossible.
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That bow turned out very nice!! Looks like it should pop an arrow real well :)
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Really nice work. That bow has it all.