Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: gstoneberg on October 10, 2012, 02:11:29 am
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I've been working on my thinning lately and it's really starting to come around (as long as I use heated rock).
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8313/8072949062_2d42c39d28_z.jpg)
But, now I'm having trouble keeping the point weight up. This one ended up 94 grains.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8169/8072948772_1dd9dca3cf_z.jpg)
Not sure what I should do to not make them so light. Seems like by the time I have the base thin enough to put in a cane shaft I'm under 100 grains. ??? I had another thin triangle point done tonight but I broke it trying to see how close to center I could notch it. ::)
George
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I don't know but that looks awful good George.
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George my hunting points weigh between 90 & 110 grains. With proper shot placement they work great.
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I never worry about the weight. I have some on foreshafts that are real small that weigh around 50 grains. I try to match them with full length, heavy arrows.
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OK, that makes me feel a little better. I made another point this morning from raw stone, was actually taking the coretex off a tab and got a piece large enough for a point. I did OK, but got an island of coretex on that side.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8450/8074034016_1316a7c061_z.jpg)
The point was pretty thin other than that.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8169/8074034718_0009f91487_z.jpg)
I was able to turn the edge on the base and knock a little of it off...
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8030/8074041295_1a2ba2f5f8_z.jpg)
But it fought me bad from there on out. I tried bringing the sides in and raising the edge on that side but nothing worked. Finally I sharpened my ishi, hooked the edge of the coretex and knocked it off with indirect.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8321/8074042039_53a7a1848d_z.jpg)
I had tried that earlier and had no luck. Guess I wasn't as desperate then. Had to go to gloves to keep it from cutting me when I was whacking it so hard. Not the prettiest point and the symmetry is off, but I think it'll hunt. Sadly, by the time I was done fighting it, instead of a heavier, wider point I ended up with what you see and 90gr. O well, at least it didn't end up in the debitage pile. :) I guess I should have quit and left that small island of coretex and had a heavier point, but my OCD nature wouldn't allow it.
George
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Sometimes you can grind it down till it's smooth.
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All looks good to me! Stay at it man, you've done whupped that dog!
Scott
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My points are always very light. I've been trying lately to get better at converting actual designs to "modern" weight standards. Here's what I came up with:
Most real arrow points have about a 6:1 width to thickness ratio. Modern weight requirements put points somewhere in the 4:1 ratio. If the point is an inch wide, that means it's 1/4" thick. That's about the thickest I go.
The point at the far right has a 4:1 ratio and the one on the far left has a 6:1 ratio.
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Jackcrafty those are some nice points! i want to get to that consistency in my handiwork!
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the way i see it most of the animals killed buy stone were killed with what everyone calls bird points, i think as long as you meet your state size requirements you gonna do just fine, long as you hit your mark
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I didn't worry that much about weight until I began shooting cane arrows. It wasn't too hard to make a point to haft onto a dogwood arrow and have it weigh 125gr or more. But, these cane arrows are teeny! Beeman has nothing on these little shafts. I had to make all new points and the bases had to be THIN!! And that's what got me into this issue. Also, since I have some compound target archery in my past, things like FOC are ingrained into me. I'll quit worrying about it, or start gluing finishing nails in the point end. :)
George
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old habits are hard to break George, Bub
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George,
I've got the same problem, but I'm learning. For more years than I can remember I've been throwing arrows from 50-60# high performance recurves and a few hybrids.
When Ashby began printing his studies I began loading up my front end trying to achieve the best possible FOC.
About 5 years ago I became disenchanted only because it seemed to me that I was complicating something that should be simple, easy, and most of all fun. and that's about when I found PA.
I sold, traded, or gave to the kids and the grandkids my horded collection.
I actually traded 2 that I purchased back later that will probably always remain in my Favorite arsenal. (63 RWH and a Quillian Canebrake). I will probably never shoot another store bought bow now that I have the bug and all of the help to perfect my own.
I think there's something magical about stone points and the ones I've found out here on the creek bottom are smaller than most of the ones I see being made today
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I hear you Fred.
I tried again tonight and got 2 points. Both are small.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8334/8081713589_41e2364fac_z.jpg)
The larger point on the left is thinner and weighs 80gr. The one on the right I really concentrated on leaving a center ridge and it weighs right at 100gr. Once I can get a roaster and cook some rock I'll be able to work on some larger spalls.
George
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wow, im impressed! looks better than the stuff ive been turning out recently. Nice job! 8)
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George, don't you be hanging those on no wind chimes, I've got plenty of beeswax left.
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That reminds me, your wax arrived today. Thanks. But, I don't do wind chimes, my better half does. I have to hide the points I want to keep. She assumes that anything laying around is fair game (and she's right).
George
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George my quiver is filled with arrows that have points ranging in weight from 40-100 gr.
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I have mostly all small heads also....In the bird point size range and they fly really well and penetrate very nicely even with my 3/8" dia. hardwood shafts. Got a couple of your smaller types and hopefully will show you how they do on deer.
rich
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Very nice points George.
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This has got me thinking... (Not always a safe activity!) I shoot big bodied and wide 145's. I wonder if I should step down to about 100 grn 7/8" points?!? Seems that my previous stone killed deer were with much smaller heads.
Scott
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I can't speak from experience yet, but the physics would suggest you'll get maximum penetration with the narrowest, 3:1 ratio head you can make (that's legal). Too bad I can't make them long enough to be 3:1. :(
George
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From what i have seen the bird points have better penentration then the big heavier points. There are two great videos on you tube that show bird point penetration test, one is from billy and i believe he was using a 35# bow from about ten yards and getting about 14 inches of penetration on an acutuall deer.
the way i see it is that the lighter smaller heads need less arrow mass for deep penetration then the wider or longer arrow heads. example is if you have a 500 grain shaft pushing a 50 grain arrow head vs a 500 grain shaft pushing a 145 grain arrow shaft. I believe the physics will show the arrow with the lighter head will penetrate better because less mass is needed behind the point. Hope that makes since.
What do you all think? opinions?
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Deo, like all things there are lots of factors, but I also think the smaller point will penetrate better, everything else being equal. But, not for the same reason. Here's the physics, (borrowed from the background of the natal study).
A triangle point can be reduced to a pair of inclined planes. Forcing half a triangle point into something is like pushing a box up a ramp. So, comparing a 7/8" wide head to a 1 1/4" wide head both the same length is like laying a 8' ramp up to a 2' high truck bumper and pushing a box up. Then putting the same ramp up to the 3' truck bed and pushing the box up there. The additional height makes it harder. So the narrower head has less resistance and penetrates better (all else being equal). Now, for the same height, the longer the ramp, the easier the job. So, the little short 1" points, maybe an inch and a quarter long I've making lately are not going to penetrate as well as a 2" long 1" wide head and if I could make a 3" long, 1" wide head it would penetrate even better. Of course, the sharpness of the point matters a lot but if I made both points they're likely to be about the same.
There is also a component for the drag on the shaft and head due to thickness of the head, diameter of the shaft and the design of the point/shaft juncture. I don't believe the thickness of the head has nearly as much to do with that drag as how well the shaft is tapered into the point on the sides. So we need to be careful to taper the end of the shaft, particularly to make it smooth on the outside of the shaft into the point.
I personally don't think the weight of the point matters much except as it influences the width and length of the point and the thickness impacts what diameter of shaft the point will fit into.
Dang, was that verbose. Sorry.
George
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I do believe their are many factors as with good science there always is. could there be a potentil problem with making a stone point to long, thus making it more prone to breakage. so by making the point a bit smaller it may potentially be a little more stout, just a thought, i also know that certain designs can take more abuse then others. thanks for the insight i have been wondering about bird point penetration versus bigger points.
I would like to see a test between bird points and stone points with a 3:1 ratio with. when i get good enough at knappin i will give it a shot.
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Hey Deo, sure a longer point could break. But, even a broken flint point is typically still sharp, though it's design may be compromised. So far this is all just physics for me and I know that sometimes reality goes where logic and math don't. That's why I love Billy's youtube tests. No substitute for real world experience. I hope to do my own tests on live game this season. I'm not good enough to do a 3:1 flint head, but most of mine that are on arrows are in the 2:1 range. They're over 1" wide though. I might be smarter to do 7/8", I have a head that size ready and an arrow for it almost finished.
George
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Good luck gstoneberg, and would like to know about the results.
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I really don't worry about the weight of my stone points. When I make my cane arrows I insert a dogwood or hickory foreshaft, and that gives me the forward weight I need. Then I mount rather small, thin points that are pretty light, some weighing as much as 50 grains....but the reed arrows that are matched to my 40 lb bow are tipped with TINY points....some weigh only 10-15 grains! But I tell ya I've killed the hell out of animals with those little points. It's all about shot placement.....
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Your heads are perfect for cane shafts shot from a self bow,that is if the bow is properly made and of average poundage, around 55#or so.I have weighed many artifacts and have found 80 to 110 grains to be the average. atlatels points are quite a bit heavier and are often mistaken for arrowpoints used in a bows.This can confuse those new to the primitive way. Your points are ideal for hunting whatever game you choose to pursue.I also like the way you make your heads, simple but effected. Very nice working points! Matt
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Those are some fine looking points. I hope to get there soon.
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Thanks guys, I hope I get a chance to do a test soon. This shingles thing has sure cut into my hunting time.
George
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good luck with those shingles George, my father-in-law got it in his eye's and ear's, it was a bear, Bub
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@ George - my dad had shingles as he was going through Hodgkins lymphoma - he made it through all of it - good luck with that - worry about the unting time.
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Thanks guys. My rash has about run its course and now I'm trying to wean off the pain meds a little. I took 1 pill instead of 2 and I'm still wiped. Those buggers make me sleeeeepy. I'd be afraid to sit in a tree stand. Don't really want to test the hunter safety vest.
George
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I didn't get to read all the posts, but I'm pretty sure it is twistedlimbs who shoots small, light heads. I'm not sure where he makes up the weight at. Lookin good all the same, dpg
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I don't have any idea what my points weigh, but i can tell you that they are a lot smaller than most hunting points I see posted here. KS law states that the point can't pass through a 3/4" washer so I make all my points around 13/16" to 7/8" wide and at least 2 to 1 preferably 2 1/2 to 1 length to width. It doesn't always work out that way though. If your having trouble hafting thicker points on cane and bamboo, drill a small hole for the base of your hafting notch and then cut your v-notch. By having a round hole at the base, you can heat the tabs of the notch and very gently work the point into the notch. The hole helps to keep the shaft from splitting as the tabs spread to accommodate the thicker point. If you have the temp right you can haft a point that is thicker than the shaft. I hope that helps. Josh