Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: Trapper Rob on October 12, 2012, 02:04:41 pm
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How do you mix pine pitch & use to put your points on I was told to use hardwood ashes but I was told that if you use to much it wont work it will be to brittle.
Rob
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I haven't found an exact ratio yet. I added too much ash once and it was very brittle. By heating it up again and adding some beeswax, it will make the pitch more flexible. Normally, I'll let some cool, see if it's the consistency I want, then add ash of wax to adjust it. You probably already know this, but be very careful heating it. It's extremely volatile and can catch on fire easily.
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I use finely ground hardwood charcoal as the filler for pitch glue and bees wax to make it less brittle. I don't have a recipe but it is about 3 to 4 parts pitch and 1 part each of charcoal and bees wax. You have to start with hard, brittle pitch for this to work or it will stay tacky.
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Do you need actual hardwood crushed coal or can finely burned ashes work just as well?
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I was told to use the ashes.
Rob
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I have not tried ash but have used charcoal, dried deer or rabbit poop or saw dust. The charcoal, like the others is the filler or at least to add body to the mixture so ash should probably work OK too.
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CARCOAL AND ASHS ARE MESSY.
I USE ATLER FILEINGS YOU STILL GET THE DARK COLOR OF THE PINE PITCH BUT IT WORKS THE SAME.
I don't have a set formular just add as I need it. I've never put a lot it to where it makes it brittle. Put you just need enough to hole it together. You can see the specks in it, it'll look like pepper in it. If it's brittle it's from to much wax I had some more pitch. Heat dip in a stick let dry if it's still brittle and a little more pitch. If you can take your finger nail and it flakes off . It's to brittle. I just keep heating dipping my sticks let harden try, add what I need untill it's platable to where it's hard to where I can push my thumb nail into it but won't flake off.
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Crookedarrow did u mean too much wax would make it too soft not too brittle?
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I've used ash and mixed in a little bit of sawdust as filler, too. I seem to have plenty of that. Then I add beeswax till it's the right consistancey.
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I use hardwood charcoal and dried deer poop. Equal amounts. I grind them until it is very fine. I heat up my pitch until it is all liquid. I do NOT let it boil. Once heated I pour the charcoal/poop mixture in a little at a time until I get the consistence I want. I have found that if you use brittle and hard pitch that is how it will turn out. I look for soft runny pitch to use.
(http://i428.photobucket.com/albums/qq1/sambone_01/D6C280B2-C632-4FB2-B581-FF761F142904-11283-00000E7EB94C13FA.jpg)
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Yea to much wax will make it brittle and not as sticky sticky as it could be. You go past the being to solf to to britle.I just keep adding a little wax bring it to a boil dip a stick let dry. When it gets to where I can push my thumb nail in to it but it's kinds hard it's as good as it going to get. If you can take a nail and flake it off to much wax. Add a little pitch, boil try again. Never had that problem with yo much filler but I've neve added to much. I can get it better than any hot glue you can buy.
My old friend CROOKETARROW show me a boiled root that really helps with it being really sticky.
I'D TELL YOU WHAT IT IS BUT I'D HAVE TO KILL YOU. But you'd be totally surprised to find out. He ground the root fibers up for a filler you don't really need the antler for filler. I do the same I just add it anyway because it always worked good for me. He only used te root filler.
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I guess the pitch makes the solf wax brittle wjhen heated and to much is added. HARD WAX IS BRITTLE.
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Somehow the picture of Pat B sitting on the ground with a pestle and mortar grinding deer poop came to mind and gave me a good chuckle >:D
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Real turpentine can be added to make brittle pine resin more sticky. Go careful as a little goes a long way. Personally I like a mixture of four part pine resin, 1 part powdered charcoal, one part ground plant fibre (or rabbit/deer/horse poop) and a little beeswax. Seems to work well enough.
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I don't want my pitch glue to be sticky to the touch except when I heat it. That is why I start with hard, brittle pitch. If the pitch I have is sticky I cook it until the volatile oils(turps) have disapated. I use finely ground charcoal to add body to the pitch glue and bees wax to make the pitch less brittle. If you use just hard, brittle pitch it can easly crumble, dislodging the head or blade.
My pitch glue is added to the shaft and head by melting it and dripping it where it is needed. By heating it it becomes sticky so it will adhere to almost any material and when it cools it looses it stickiness but will still remained attached to whatever it is put on. If for some reason the head or blade becomes detached or loosened a little heat on the point or blade will slightly melt the pitch allowing it to re-adhere to the stone and/or wood(or antler or whatever).
If you use sticky pitch it will remain sticky until the turps disapate which could take a while and in the mean time it will collect any foreign material that comes in contact with it like lint, leaves and grass or whatever. The way I was tought to make pitch glue will not pick up "trash" after it has cooled. That is why I make it the way I do, using hard, brittle pitch to start with.
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Pat, I know most of these recipes are by feel or touch but do you have a ratio close to how much beeswax you are adding. I'm getting ready to try my own first batch and would like just a general idea to begin with.
Fred
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Fred, I don't have a specific recipe but I'd guess it to be about 1 part charcoal and 1 part bees wax to 3 or 4 parts of pitch. You have to be very careful heating pitch because if it gets too hot it WILL combust. I usually make it up using my wood stove to cook it. I melt the pitch and clean out the debris as best I can then add the bees wax and mix it in. I them add the charcoal to thicken it up. I'll remove it from the wood stove and let it cool and check the consistancy. If not right I reheat the mix and add whatever I think it needs.
A double boiler is a lot safer method(but slower) of cooking the pitch and I know guys that boil the pitch in water to melt it and to seperate the debris from it. I have done this once and it seemed to work pretty well.
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Pat, I have a lot of the soft sticky sap here. When you heat it up to get the turp out, when do you know it is out? Is there a way to tell when heating it up?
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Charlie, I use trial and error. I'll cook it until it gets pretty hot then take it off the heat and let it cool and test it. Generally a few sessions like this will do the trick, depending on how much turps are in the pitch.
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Thanks Pat. I had an idea the other night, not sure if it will work or not. I have one of the older bottom pour lead melting pots that I was going to try and use. As it melted I could lift the handle and let the good pitch run out the bottom into something, leaving all the debris in the pot. Have to see if it will get too hot, as lead melts at a pretty high temperature.
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PATS right you just have to play with it.
I tell you what you can do thats if you have trouble getting it right. Cheat and add a hot glue stick or 2 and melt it in lots of people do this and keep it to themselves. But if done right it's better than the hot glue you buy.
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Ok i dont use hardwood and this is why. Willow charcoal like coconut has the greatest surface area as a particle. These particles also have areas that can bite and hold onto other chemicals better because of the greater surface area. This wood can be ground into a finer powder. The addition of other materials benifit as well from these properties. Willow charcoal was used during WW1 in gas mask because of the larger surface area of the particles. My belief is the surface area benifets adhesion....I could be wrong...only time will tell...
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Ok i dont use hardwood and this is why. Willow charcoal like coconut has the greatest surface area as a particle. These particles also have areas that can bite and hold onto other chemicals better because of the greater surface area. This wood can be ground into a finer powder. The addition of other materials benifit as well from these properties. Willow charcoal was used during WW1 in gas mask because of the larger surface area of the particles. My belief is the surface area benifets adhesion....I could be wrong...only time will tell...
I just made a batch of pitch glue a few days ago with willow charcoal i happened to have left over from making a batch of blackpowder. I knew willow was supposed to be best for blackpowder but didnt know it had greater sutface area. It seems to work well in the pitch glue, but since this is my first batch i dont have anything to compare it with.
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Ok i dont use hardwood and this is why. Willow charcoal like coconut has the greatest surface area as a particle. These particles also have areas that can bite and hold onto other chemicals better because of the greater surface area. This wood can be ground into a finer powder. The addition of other materials benifit as well from these properties. Willow charcoal was used during WW1 in gas mask because of the larger surface area of the particles. My belief is the surface area benifets adhesion....I could be wrong...only time will tell...
I just made a batch of pitch glue a few days ago with willow charcoal i happened to have left over from making a batch of blackpowder. I knew willow was supposed to be best for blackpowder but didnt know it had greater sutface area. It seems to work well in the pitch glue, but since this is my first batch i dont have anything to compare it with.
I just read it like a year ago. I used oak because I thought it would be stronger but found the data interesting and switched. The article was about the different qualities of charcoal. I now think about the finer quaility of flax compared to other larger fibers that are less strong.
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Just thought I'd chime in here. I've been trying to find a good formula for making good arrow pitch and what some others have said seems to be right. Fresh pitch, hardwood charcoal and ground plant fiber, either poop or just really dry stuff.
I made a batch last night using those three ingredients just adding a littl at a time until I got the consistency Billy Berger said yo should have in his article in PA.
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I think we should myth bust this one. Willow vs oak. Now we need to agree on what we are testing: compression? tension? flexibility? I bet that one formula works great in cold but not warm maybe... just thinking here. There are so many different ways to think about this so the test will have to be limited to simple variables. OK lets design a test any ideas?