Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: jakeas on October 24, 2012, 11:44:28 am
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well, this must be the most stupid idea i have had in a long while... i am planning on making a 68" pine flat bow with some sort of backing (havent decided yet) any ideas on how i should do this?
thanks j
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Well, at that length it will have to be wide- like 3 inches.
At that width the handle will have to be stiff and narrowed.
You'll need a backing that won't overpower the pine belly- like rawhide.
Make the back and belly flat- the cross section a rectangle.
Make the limbs bend over their entire length- no stiff tips.
Wear safety glasses and take photos!
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thanks aaron will bare that in mind! ;) i will post the pics whatever the result... :p
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by the way i plan to make the handle 3/4" and the width may be a problem. eek! the limbs are only guna be 1 3/4" wide... this could get interesting...
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I think it sounds perfect. Be sure to use good, solid pine boards.
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1 3/4 is kinda narrow for pine- I suggest lower draw weight- like 30 lbs. I'm resisting the urge to ask why you are building a pine bow. What type of pine? Have you checked it's density?
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i think the board is strong enough. the grain is strait, ish and the late growth seems to be "ok". but i was thinking a layer of carbon fibre on the back may give it strength and extra pounds, maybe? and i am going to use knock overlays and for the handle i was going to use another extension, teak or something.
j
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Carbon fiber? :o I never saw that growing in the woods. ???
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of maybe mdf board? and no there isnt a mdf plant either... lol
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Good luck with that,keep in mind this bow section is for all natural material so if plan on anything else post it in around the campfire. :)
Pappy
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carbon fiber would overpower the belly for sure, you need a stretchy backing like rawhide, or even brown paper bag.
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ow. im sorry didnt realise... will keep to he natural stuff. :S
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right i see. will have to do same more research.thanks
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When your done doing your research, pine wont be on your list anymore.
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i know pine is the worst stuff to use. the only reason i am using it as its the cheapest way i can practice my skills before i spend £30 on some ash and screw it up. DX now i wouldn't want that! im just considering ways i could make it be something more then a training dummy. it might even be used as an ornament when its done. :P
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You wont learn anything on wood that cant make a bow. That happens to be one of my many pet peves. Suggesting beginners use junk wood to learn on. Thats just silly. Start with the best ingredients you have available, not the cheapest.
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well its mainly the wood working skills. i know i wont learn tillering but that can wait. mainly the carving, glueing and cutting. i have made many bows in the past, but with branches and pen knives. this is my first board build so its bound to go wrong some where.
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My son just turned 16 years old a month ago. He started driving on his own. I decided to put junk tires on his car this winter, just so he can learn how to handle spin outs and high speed skids. If he does good this winter Im going to put good tires on for next winter.
See what Im getting at? Branches and pen knives dont count, this will be your first real bow and starting with good bow wood is the best way to start.
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Last I heard trees grew in England ;) if you've made many bows then you should have wood working skills already...and you should know where pearl is coming from...tying a string at both ends of a green branch doesn't qualify as a bow in my opinion. Rouging down wood is easy even for a newbie,the hardest part is tillering and it sounds like you've never done it before,so why not use a for sure wood that has been proven,instead of one that isn't a true bow wood.
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look, thanks for the advice and every thing but i have done my homework and know what im doing. if it goes wrong it goes wrong. i am ordering in some white ash next week. i have all of the plans, notes, and sketches i need for a pyramid flatbow. including recurved tips knock overlays and handle layout. lets just say this build is out of boredom. till i can get the wood i need.
i do see your point and the bows i have made in the past were quite substantial. i spent two days solid carving a piece of hazel into a d shaped self bow. and the set of skills it takes to work board bows is different as you sort of pointed out in your post.
j
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I want pics if it fails or not expirmenting is always fun to do even if you know it going to fail thats how the asymertcal bow build i did was i was expecing it to break
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You wont learn anything on wood that cant make a bow. That happens to be one of my many pet peves. Suggesting beginners use junk wood to learn on. Thats just silly. Start with the best ingredients you have available, not the cheapest.
Agreed.
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These are the threads that keep me from visiting here much anymore. You ask for help. You get answers that are as right as rain and you ignore them and say you've done your homework and know what your doing. Dont ask next time and I wont waste my time answering your questions.
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You dont want to spend 30 GBP on a bow, yet you are inclined to buy the board, buy the carbonfiber, buy the glue, and buy teak. There's something wrong in your reasoning here...
Buy a single board of oak, maple, elm or ash. No glue required, no laminating, only you and the wood working skills.
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if you take a piece of chalk and draw a master piece on the floor its going to be useless right? but still you have learnt something. why are you talking about this as if i am clueless? i asked for ways to help make this bow not what to make a bow out of. to me, that obviously means i already have the wood and the reasons to make it. the only advice i have ignored is that i should randomly abandon a bit of wood i have and start working on something else. if i can make pine work, which some have said yes to, then why not try it?
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and by the way i am 15. so i have lack of money transportation and resources. does this answer some questions?
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and by the way i am 15. so i have lack of money transportation and resources. does this answer some questions?
Nope..it answers them ALL. And were talking bows here not sidewalk chalk junior :P
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wow. i give up. your all worse then the d grade students at my school. i cant do anything that involves anything different from your"professional" opinions. i dont see why you carry on. if your not going to help me make a bow then fair enough. i don't care. i know pine is bad. i know it will most probably fail and i know you guys disagree with that. so grow up your selfs and be more open minded.
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Ahhhh.... 15 and stubborn. oh well, you live and learn. Personally, the first bow I ever made was a 6 foot long 1x2 of red oak. I spent 5 or 6 bucks on it. Trust us, get quality wood. It's not expensive.
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right. have you read what ive put? i quote "ordering some white ash next week" is that ok? im sorry if you have troubles or something but this is enough. come on, im 15 and know that you are being kind of arrogant yourselves. if you want me to say it again i will. 'i know pine is the worst i get the message'. to be honest its quite simple to understand. i am making use of something that other wise is rubish.
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no arrogance on this end, you ask for advice and didn't hear what you wanted, said you can't tiller then said you knew what you were doing, no use getting pissed off, nouthing wrong with a pine board, pine makes nice furniture, just listen to this one piece of advice, when you draw that back, wear a helmet, Bub
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If its really straight grained save some of the pine for a few arrows.
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ok bubby will do. :p i guess i did lose track of what i was saying there but to be fair i was referring to tillering with pine.
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If i were going to try what you are i would forget the recurves and pyramid design and stiff handle. Back it with linen or silk or worts case cotton tshirt. Leave it full width untill last 10 inches then taper to 1/2 inch at nocks. I would narrow handle to 1 1/2 inches and tiller it to bend in the handle. As stated before get the whole limb bending, no stiff tips. Go for a low draw weight 25 to 30 pounds max. Never draw it to any higher weight than either your aim weight or untill you see a problem in the tiller. Keep back and belly as flat as possible exept slightly round all edges so there are no sharp corners. At least in my opinion that will give it the best chance of actualy surviving. I wouldt put on tip overlays untill i had it tillered and shooting. No use wasting good wood on a bow might not make it. Its one of the last thing i do no matter what wood im using.
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You cant tiller wood that wont bend. Thats the WHOLE point of this conversation.
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thanks for the advice turtle. i will use this and see how it goes.
and pearl please give over.
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This is silly..........you'd have better luck and probably spend the same cash using a peice of red oak from lowes/homedepot with grain that runs all over the place.
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This is silly..........you'd have better luck and probably spend the same cash using a peice of red oak from lowes/homedepot with grain that runs all over the place.
I doubt those stores are easy to find in the UK ;) That being said, you are probably right. But, its his time to waste. All I ask is be as careful as possible and make sure no one else is within shrapnel range while you work on it. Lessons learned the hard way are still lessons learned. The trick is to learn it without the cost of life or limb. Good luck! You'll need it. Josh
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Use the Pine. It may not be the best but if you back it with something like rawhide or silk and be extremely picky about the tiller then you should be able to turn out something that will shoot and survive. Make sure you make it long, at least 72" for a 28" draw.
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Always wanted to see someone try and tackle pine, I bet you could pull it off. Post pictures!
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Jakeas,
Go for it! Take notes. Take pictures and maybe video when tillering.
I recall reading in one of the Bowyer's Bible series about a bloke who tried a pine bow and it worked out OK. I think it was in the section on bow wood. I also remember the author saying only a newbie would try it, but it turned out better than all the "experts" said it would.
Good luck and just go slow, be deliberate and cautious.
Post up some pictures when you get it done.
Derek
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jakeas-please don't give up on this forum because some of us have strong opinions and such. Although i see the point of those who say that beginners should use the best materials, I also see your point that you just want to build some skills with the tools and materials you have. I am with those who say "go for it" . You will not get a great bow, , but you will learn alot. We will help you, especially if you do what we say- that is, follow the advice of at least one person here. Your best chance of success will come by setting low expectations for the bow, that is low draw weight, short draw length, no stiff tips. I was not joking when i said that brown paper bag makes an acceptable backing for the type of bow you're making. A good next step would be photos of the board with some pencil lines showing where you intend to cut it.
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Exactly like aaron said, my first piece of wood I ever tried to make into a bow was red oak, it did NOT go well (made it way too short, too deep, bad nocks) but I learned a LOT about the craft, what tools to use and how to use them. Go for it and enjoy it, even if it doesn't work!
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Just for clarification, my post sounded a bit more negative than intended. I am not trying to dissuade you from trying it. I'm simply asking that caution be taken. As has been pointed out, there have been pine bows made in the past and I'm reasonably sure they will be made in the future. Maybe yours will be the next, who knows? As far as the opinions go, some are a result of experience , some are probably more of a case of pontificating from the posterior with no personal experience whatsoever. But all the opinions were presented with your best interests in mind. Even the dissenting opinions were given to help you and not posted out of simple contrarian spite. Turtle and Marc both offered good advice. If followed, you might just pull it off. At least I hope you do. Once again, good luck! Josh
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Wouldn't be my choise of wood but if that is all you have go for it,I read somewhere about a pine bow that worked,just make it long and wide and back with something. :) Keep us posted. :)
Pappy
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*DISCLAIMER*
Primitive archer is not responsible for any injury you receive from attempting the advice from any of its forum and administrative members.
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There's a better use for that board and its something you MUST have if you are going to attempt a pine board bow. Make yourself a rope and pulley tiller tree that allows you to stand back at a safe distance while pulling on it and exercising it. You do not want that coming undone in your face on a tiller stick with notches.
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I read most of this thread and couldn't help but think what jakeas would have heard, had he asked Dean Torges? So here's my free advice:
1.Don't ask for advice unless you are willing to accept that advice.
2. Listen to the voice of experience. Doesn't mean you have to abide by it, but you should listen and not respond in a negative manner.
3. "Old" people are your very best source of information in this world. Better than books or internet!
4. Always accept the fact that you don't know everything.
5. Finally, print this and read it in about 15 years from now.
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;D ;D Yep.
Pappy
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When i was in my teens i thought I knew everything, my 20`s and early 30`s I knew I knew everything.
Now I realise I knew bugger all. Which is nice as it gives me a fresh start :)
Definitely back it to stop splinters flying if it goes pop. A nice big splinter in the face or eye will certainly ruin your day. Make it long and wide and dont go with anything fancy like recurves.
Slightly bending handle will give you more working bow and spread the load over a wider area.
Not sure where you are buying your ash from but unless i saw it in the flesh my self before hand i would be wary.
Where abouts in the UK are you roughly? Also you mentioned Hazel which is a great bow wood if treated properly. You can go from green hazel to a finished bow in no time if done properly ;) Takes nawt more than a little "initiative" and a pruning saw to fine some too ;)
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Im 18 and ive got it all figured out and i dont need anyone to tell me otherwise ::)
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If you have a saw or even a hatchet, you can rip or split that pine board down to 1/2" by 1/2" (ish) squares, then use your handy plane to plane the corners down to 8 sides, then the 8 to 16, then sand them round and you've got the beginnings of great arrow shafts!
I've made a half dozen squirrel thumpers out of a nice straight-grain pine board, a few turkey secondary feathers, and a handfull of 3/8" nuts (just thread on the tapered point end and glue in place). They're not pretty, but they fly well and really put the thump to squirrels (and empty milk jugs). I need to post pictures of those... ;)
The point is, use the pine for arrows, not bows! It works well. I enjoy making arrow shafts about as much as making bows, much more rapid gratification.
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Jakeas,
The first bow i made was a pine board molle and it failed i was think kind alike you
First bow go cheap looking back i wish i used oak or even ash . There is lots of good advice in this post and on this site
im not going to tell you dont do it but i will agree just becarefull. Btw i built that bow before i ever got on this site and wish i wouldve gotten on here first. Also i did get about 4 arrows shot off the bow before breaking only because i backed it with a tshirt. Anyways just have fun and becareful.
-Bo-
LA PORTE TEXAS
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looking back i reget some of the posts i put. if i were to be my normal self i would have blamed my angry posts on my bad head. (and no i wasnt the bow. ;)) but looking back i was being fairly unfair to some of you kind folk.
thanks to every one for your advice and just to say i am following it. i am currently drawing up plans for an ash pyramid style flat bow. the pine bow is drawn up and ready to have the handle stuck on. after this i shall cut to shape and so on. i will post pictures of the "infamous pine bow" shortly to let you all know my progress.
and it would be helpful if anybody knows a white ash dealer in the norfolk area of the uk?
thanks again
j
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jakeas, there are several uk bowyers on this site, maybe you can contact them, one might be close, or maybe you can trade for materials or something, just have fun, that's the point of all this is fun, Bub
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I would ask around any of your local tree surgeons if you can and see what they have.
You want palm width kind of thickness trunk and cut off a nice clean branch and knot free section.
You can go smaller maybe wrist thick but the main aim is nice and clean for atleast your height. It can take a long time to tiller a nice bow and you want to be in with the best chance you can. Even guys with a lot of experience will blow a bow with more things in their favour than a poor stave.
Look for wasteland and verges along roads where trees grow all together and tall n thin. This means less branches and knots.
Also see if any of your family or friends ever come upto cheshire and I will try and get a stave to them.
I know it sounds like for ever to cut season and get to a bow but the time can be cut drastically whilst keeping you busy all the way through the build. Its even better to do a few at a time so you always have something to work on as in cut and split 2 or 3 saplings, rough them all out and de-bark, stick them in a upstairs room and get them fast drying.
There are a few quiet places where a pruning saw will get you a nice stave ;) Dont be thinking gardens or parks, think more wasteland and places where no one has planted lots of nice timber. Talk to any local farmers and explain what you are interested in and take pictures. See if they can help.
You say you are drawing up plans bud. We all do that and most of them are in the bin half way through the build. With experience the wood lets you know what kind of bow it will be and slaps us if we dont listen ;)
Starting out as young as your are you will be posting bows here in a few years that put us all to shame.
Stay safe.
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Irregardless Of the success or failure Of the pine bow I must confess you spark quite a conversation... stay true to the course and welcome to p a young man ;)
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One thing I have found out for sure,you have to be hard headed to do this stuff. :)
Looking forward to your progress. :)
Pappy