Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Kviljo on November 03, 2012, 01:03:49 pm
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I've been making a couple asiatic horn bows, but can't help feeling that there is something missing as long as I have not attempted making an american-indian horn bow too. Steve Allely and Jim Hamms volume 2 of "Native American bows, arrows and quivers" have got drawings of two original sheep horn bows, so I was hoping to make something similar to those. Both seem to be bows made with only one horn, with a sinew back, and just a little longer than 30 inches long. I've also been looking through other books to find documentation of original bows, but have so far not found anything specific regarding limb taper and other constructional data.
I was hoping that someone here had some good data on an original sheep horn bow, so that it would be possible to give the bow the correct shape and bend. If no-one knows of such information, I will use the drawings that I already have.
So, please let me know if you know of a good source of information on these bows, and I'll try to make it up with a photo-heavy buildalong from start to finish.
Oh, and the party-pooper: I will be using water buffalo horn due to lack of proper material... :)
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By saying asiatic bows I assume you will have a wood or bamboo core.Go on You Tube to YamtarCeri once it might help ya.Jeff Schmidt and John Mcpherson.
Look forward to your build along.
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No-no, even though it is tempting to add a wood core to save some sinew, I was hoping to make a pure american-indian horn bow with only horn and sinew.
Maybe I will make another buildalong for one of my other horn bows some time this winter, but I thought is was more in line with this forum to go for an American-indian version :) Anyway, just to get started, here's some full draw photos of an Hungarian and an Egyptian bow that I've put together a while ago.
(http://kviljo.no/bue/mb3.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/atarn/13.jpg)
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I see.Very nice bows there.You've been busy.This forum is for all bows.Look forward to your build along.
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Thank you Ivar. I hope I inspired you. I think I most do something about it myself. :-)
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Yes, Bjørnar, you definitely inspired me to get started on this. Maybe we should do a dual buildalong? ;)
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Ivar, contact James Parker(Robustus) about the sheep horn bow. James has made most of the Asiatic composite bows and I think he is planning or has already started a sheep horn bow. If nothing else he could give you domensions but I'm sure he knows whatever you might need in info.
I like both of these composits you posted and plan to make one similar to the second one or at least a Native American composite bow.
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Kviljo, if anyone can do justice to this design, it would be you. I'm not the least offended that you would be using water bufalo horn instead of North American bighorn sheep. It would be another story if you said modern epoxies and carbon fiber!
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Ivar: Deal ;D You have the knowledge, I have the perseverance. Look forward to some collaboration. :)
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Thanks Pat, I just sent him a PM. I do remember his wonderful american-indian horn bow. I will have to look for that thread again, also.
JW, thanks, as soon as I come across a proper sheep horn I will set it aside for a second try, but I hope the water buffalo horn will provide some helpful experience.
Bowman, brilliant stuff! When looking over the horns here I found one that I hope is suitable. There might be another one if you don't already have one. Otherwise Highland Horn shold be the source to go for.
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Kviljo: If you have horn I can buy it from you. Othervise I buy from Highland horns. 30" ? :-)
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I'll have a look tomorrow then :)
Edit: I just looked through the "Composites" thread of Robustus, and it seems that his plains style horn bow was a longer version at 46 inches, with a wooden core and two horns.
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Perhaps ya can contact this gentleman...
His website is pretty cool too.
Heartwoodbows...
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,34888.0.html
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Perhaps ya can contact this gentleman...
His website is pretty cool too.
Heartwoodbows...
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,34888.0.html
Yeah, that's Chuck Loeffler. He makes really sweet bows. He just made a sheep horn composite bow recently.
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where do you fellas get the horn for these bows? any online sources?
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Did ya see this one...nuttin but horn n sinew...I have plans to make one as well
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=13775.0
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I look forward to seeing your attempt.
I also have a buffalo horn that may be suitable for one of these bows.....
It will certainly be interesting to see how far a hornbow with no core reflexes when the sinew dries! I predict it will act 'alive' on first stringing ;)
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Same here mike.It will be a bit springy.....LOL.Like a leaf spring.Did welch2 ever show his bow finished?Gotta wonder about the hand shock with a bow like that.
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Did ya see this one...nuttin but horn n sinew...I have plans to make one as well
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=13775.0
if i remember right didn't that bow die before he got her done? Bub
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Never read boo or baa about it after he sinewed around the handle.No news is bad news I guess.
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I saw the bow James had built at the classic last spring. He did a splice of two horns, I believe. I started one, but have put it down. I've got two horns cut, thinned some, and straightening. It's a "long term project" for anyone but even longer for me!
I saw the video that's advertised around...something like "The Sheapeater Bow". It's a pretty good video that shows basic techniques, but I think you've already got down what the video would show from seeing your other composite bows.
Good luck!
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Thanks guys, this seems to be a little more clear now.
I get my horn from a scottish supplier (highland horn), but sadly he does not send to the US, as far as I have understood. That's for water buffalo, anyway.
I've been looking through my books, and found a very interesting appendix in the book "Native american bows" by T. M. Hamilton. There's a description of ten horn bows from the US national museum. They give dimentions for the middle, midlimb and tips for most of the bows, and also some thoughts about construction and sinew thickness. Some of them are considered to be made with cow horn, while others are made with more the more conventional sheep horn and antler. I wonder if they might have misinterpreted some of them as cow horn?
Anyway, I will go through the text once more, and decide upon which set of dimentions I will use. I'll post it in a while.
Bowman; I was not able to find any suitable long horn for the bow, but now it seems that it is authentic to join two of them in the middle. I'm sure I've got a pair for you, unless you want to make a one-piece bow (too).
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Ivar. Maybe I should made a couple of sinew backed wooden bows before I went into horn land. :) You have the knowledge. I have to learn more about it. I think I will try to make something out of a one piece horn. Later. :-)
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Okay, it's up to you :) There's a lot of cool wooden bows to make too, and the sinew backed ones sure are quite exciting.
Well, now I have concluded about my project. One of the bows described in Hamiltons book is pretty much similar to one of the bows in the book "Encyclopedia of Native..." The one in Hamiltons book is just a hint smaller than the other one, so I will conveniently settle for the one that has the fine A4-size drawing in the Encyclopedia. It is 30-7/8" long, 1-1/8" x 9/16" at the grip, 31/32" x 1/2" at midlimb, and 15/32" x 1/2" by the tip. It's one-piece horn, from Montana, and dated to about 1830. The other and smaller bow had about half its limb thickness made up with sinew, so that's what I'll aim for too.
So I guess the next step will be to clean up the horn and check if it will yield a large enough piece of horn. Hope to post some pictures next.
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Look forward to your buildalong Ivar. I 'm pretty sure I will make a native american horn bow later. :-)
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Okay, it's up to you :) There's a lot of cool wooden bows to make too, and the sinew backed ones sure are quite exciting.
Well, now I have concluded about my project. One of the bows described in Hamiltons book is pretty much similar to one of the bows in the book "Encyclopedia of Native..." The one in Hamiltons book is just a hint smaller than the other one, so I will conveniently settle for the one that has the fine A4-size drawing in the Encyclopedia. It is 30-7/8" long, 1-1/8" x 9/16" at the grip, 31/32" x 1/2" at midlimb, and 15/32" x 1/2" by the tip. It's one-piece horn, from Montana, and dated to about 1830. The other and smaller bow had about half its limb thickness made up with sinew, so that's what I'll aim for too.
So I guess the next step will be to clean up the horn and check if it will yield a large enough piece of horn. Hope to post some pictures next.
I saw a bow almost exactly like the one you just described in a Museum when I went out west. I wounder if it was the same one. What length draw are you gonna try to get with a bow that short?
Jon
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Kviljo....There is a domesticated sheep called a rambala that has horns more than the length you want.Curled just like a wild sheep horn even double curl.You can look the sheep up on line too.I used to live by a town that had a rendering plant and knew the fellas that worked there.Dead animals come through this plant to be rendered into various different feeds etc.These dead sheep would come through there too.I sold a number of those skulls to a frontier trade era dealer in Minnesota before I started to make bows.I bet he would still have some of them.They are attached to the skull yet so you would have to get them off.If you are interested PM me.
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Jon, maybe it was the same. If not, that's cool too, because then it means that this size of bow is even more representative. I'm hoping to draw the bow untill the string wants to slip off :) I bet it will be around 20 inches, maybe. I hope the dimentions will give it a round bend, so that the short length will be helped by a good bend through the grip.
Beadman, that would have been awesome as the second version of this bow :) But I'm hesitating a little, because I think the customs clearence would give us problems. I think there are some rules about import of this kind of animal stuff. At least that's what the scottish dealer told me.
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Did ya see this one...nuttin but horn n sinew...I have plans to make one as well
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=13775.0
if i remember right didn't that bow die before he got her done? Bub
sorry it was his egyption composite that blew, Bub
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Heya Kviljo,
I started mine with the sheaphorns. If you want to PM me, I'll let you know what I used as a supplier.
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So, I got started tonight, roughing out the horn and shaping it.
This is the horn before any work. Well, it was cut in half by the company that I bought it from, to save shipping costs. It was the largest water buffalo horn that I had, at about 34 inches long on the outer curve. First job is to sand down the outer curve to get a smooth surface without any bumps and cracks. I used a disc sander with a coarse grit paper to do the rough work, and a belt sander to make finer adjustments of the shape. Even though the horn will be boiled and straigthened, it is important to sand it as evenly as possible, to keep the "grain" running through the horn as well as possible.a
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image1.jpg)
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As you see, the horn have got some sideways twist, but this was no problem as the bow will only have 1/2-inch wide tips. It is not a good idea to try to boil the horn to straighten it sideways, as the horn will eventually go back to it's original shape. So, the laminate for the bow has to be cut straight out of the horn. Luckily the horn was just big enough to get a straight laminate from it. I bet it would also have been possible to make an S-shaped bow with some character, but I suspect that would make the bow very difficult to "tame" once it is ready to be bent and braced.
So, step two in the process is to cut the laminate from the horn. It is possible to use a hack-saw and other narrow-bladed hand saws, but the quickest and most painless is to use a bandsaw. The process is a little scary, as it is easy to mess up a horn by cutting it the wrong way. I use the method that Adam Karpowicz uses for his horn/wood/sinew composites. He has written an article on it here:
http://atarn.org/islamic/turkish_bow/cutting_horn.htm (http://atarn.org/islamic/turkish_bow/cutting_horn.htm)
It basically involves glueing the horn to a wooden board, to make sure it is held in the correct position when one is making the saw-cut. Hot-melt glue is superb for this use. Here is an illustration-picture after I had cut the horn. I screwed up and ripped off the inner cut-off part before I took the picture, so the picture does not really show the process well... The next photo shows both the cut-off laminate and the "scrap" piece, which of course will be used for lots of smaller and possibly bigger projects. (a schytian composite?)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image2.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image3.jpg)
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it looks like its going well! going to be a mighty fine bow!
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When the horn laminate is cut off, I rough-sand the inner side of it to even out the thickness a little and chuck it in a big pot with boiling water. It is important not to boil the horn for too long, two or three minutes is enough. You only want the horn to be hot, and 100 degrees celcius makes it very pliable. Pretty much like a thick piece of leather. The aim is to straighten out the natural curve, to make it easier to shape it into a piece that has no sideways bend.
A friend of mine welded this long pot for me, which I use to boil the wooden core for asiatic composites. The 30-7/8" long horn laminate for this one fit into it just barely. It is of course also possible to use steam, but I would not use dry heat, as it is quite possible to over-heat the horn.
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image4.jpg)
After boiling I quickly place the horn on the bench and clamp it down. Let it stay there untill it has cooled completely, something that takes surpricingly long time. Horn holds heat very well. The laminate was at this stage about 9mm thick.
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image6.jpg)
After the horn had cooled, I started the layout of the bow. I drew the width profile when the horn was still clamped flat to the bench. These bows are so small! As you see from the next picture, there was some sideways bend in the laminate, but there was enough material to fit the bow straight into it. Phew... :) A regular pencil does show, even on the black horn.
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image7.jpg)
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Sweet! I can't wait to see this one get finished up!
Jon
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Oh, I forgot to show a picture inbetween here. As I'm making the bow from one horn, one tip is going to be made from the solid tip of the horn, while the other will be made of the scull-section of the horn. The part of the horn closest to the scull is usually pretty thin, and was so in this case also. The horn was some inches longer than the finished bow, so I cut off a little at the base of the horn, to get rid of some of the thinnest part of it. Still, one tip of the bow will have more sinew than horn because there was not enough horn thickness. In the next picture you can see the hollow part of the horn, which accounts for the thin wall in it. The picture was taken after boiling and straightening it.
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image8.jpg)
After this, I cut off the waste of the sides of the laminate, and shaped the width profile, while also adjusting the thickness. I was aming for 7mm thickness at the middle, and 6mm from mid-limb to tips. One tip will taper even more, down to 4mm. I'm sure it will not be a problem to compensate with some extra sinew, even though it might give it some extra reflex that will have to be corrected in the finished bow.
After shaping the laminate further, I boiled it once more, and clamped it to the bench again. As you see from the picture below, it is starting to look like an outline of a bow, even though there is still some sideways bend in one tip.
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image9.jpg)
The next image shows the amount of reflex the horn had after the second round of straightening. I don't worry about straightening the horn too much, because it will regain all of it when I do the sinewing. I'm pretty confident the tips will touch or even cross after I have put on the last layer of sinew. Most of that will have to be stressed out of it to make the bow shootable, but it will make sure that the bow will perform well. You may also recognize the page in one of the encyclopedias, with the drawing that I am working out from.
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image10.jpg)
After some more shaping, I scraped the whole horn. Horn works great with a scraper, and it is a joy to see the horn change into the black shiny surface. It is really a pretty material, even though sheep horn would be somewhat more interesting. The picture below shows the width profile of the laminate after it has been scaped. You can also see the two sanding machines I used to shape it, in the background. Far from primitive, and pretty smelly. But my head is full of bows that I "need" to make, and not enough spare time... It is also a very safe method of shaping horn as there is no stress on it from using adzes, and it does not need to be clamped to something while using rasps. It can of course all be done with hand tools too.
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image11.jpg)
The next two pictures show the laminate as it was when I finished for the evening. Pretty much ready for sinew. I will do some final touch-up of the cross section and make sure the limb taper is pretty good first. The horn can be tillered to some extent. It is very flexible, although I will not risk bending it to full-draw without sinew on the back. It might well have survived that though.
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image12.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image13.jpg)
So, that was all for tonight. It will be very interesting to put sinew onto this little bastard. I bet it will curl up pretty quickly, although I will intentionally put on the first layers of sinew somewhat sloppy. As far as I have seen on original american-indian sinew backed wooden bows, the sinew layer has been a little rough. It also means that I don't have to put as much effort into preparing the sinew strands for the first build-ups of sinew, which is a welcome time-saver.
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Thanks Ivar. Looks like you have turn'ed on the 6.th gear. Look forward to see the final result. :-)
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Looking pretty awesome so far, cant wait to see the finished product!
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Great buildalong and looking awesome. Thank you
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This is going to be one hell of a cool bow! Can't wait to see her finished!
Jon
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Ivar: I'm connvinced. I'm going to build a bow like that during the next year. Oddbjørn can help me with the horn and the band saw. :-)
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Finally some progress on this bow. I lightly cross-scratched the back of the horn after having scraped the glue surface of it. I applied about 10 layers of 5% hide glue to make sure the the sinew layer will not delaminate from the horn. Horn is a difficult material to glue, but by putting on many near-water-thin coats of hide glue, one can be pretty sure the glueing will go alright.
Up untill now I have put on two layers of sinew that consists of about 40 grammes of sinew fibres. My plan is to add layers untill it reaches the original dimentions, which is about 50/50 horn and sinew. I think one or two more layers will be enough.
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image14.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image15.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/amhorn/image16.jpg)
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that looks good, i was just wondering if you had made any progress on that bow
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Any progress or updates on this build...looks fantastic so far. Thanks
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I've had some minor trouble with sinew lifting off the horn, as a result of narrowing the bow a little which exposed the glue line too much. It's now glued down, and the bow has gotten in total 74 grams of sinew. Still I have to add a little to get it to original dimentions, but as the tips are now about to cross, I've decided to open it up a little before I put on the final layer(s). The bow will be a small beast, and I'm very curious to see how it will behave, and how far it will be possible to draw.
What I've learned is that the horn probably should have been scratched some more before putting on the sinew, and I would also straighten out the horn completely before starting to sinew. I should also have narrowed down the horn to about 2mm narrower than the original dimensions before putting on the sinew, so that I would not have to expose the horn/sinew glue line when the thick sinew layer was still contracting. That would have avoided the problems with sinew lifting off.
There will be some more photos of the continuation, it is just taking a little extra time :)
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Looking forward to seein it finished looks good so far I would love to attemp making a hornbow one day
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thank you for posting this I'm heading in this direction, and this will help immensely when it comes time for planning. looking forward to future post.
chuck
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Very educational. I'm loving your buildalong!
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waterbuffalo horn build along would have been a better title since I see no sheep! :P
It was very clear from the beginning pictures that you did not have nearly enough surface scratches on the back of the bow for the sinew to adhere to, if you would have also wrapped the sinew while wet with some nylon cordage you could have prevented lifting of the sinews.
Without building up the sinew layers at the handle you will have a big rubber-band instead of a bow, the even distribution of the sinew over the length of you horn core which looks to be an even thickness throughout will not allow for the stiffness in the middle that you need. I might suggest adding a piece of horn to the belly with hide glue then wrapped with sinew after you have all your layers added, this might add the stiffness needed in the middle. You could also take some of the reflex out by clamping the middle of the bow to a board and pulling the tips down with some anchor ropes before the sinew cures to much. To much reflex tends to make the bow want to twist in your hand when stringing and makes the overall bow unstable.
Just some food for thought.
Good luck with your project.
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I've had some minor trouble with sinew lifting off the horn, as a result of narrowing the bow a little which exposed the glue line too much. It's now glued down, and the bow has gotten in total 74 grams of sinew. Still I have to add a little to get it to original dimentions, but as the tips are now about to cross, I've decided to open it up a little before I put on the final layer(s). The bow will be a small beast, and I'm very curious to see how it will behave, and how far it will be possible to draw.
What I've learned is that the horn probably should have been scratched some more before putting on the sinew, and I would also straighten out the horn completely before starting to sinew. I should also have narrowed down the horn to about 2mm narrower than the original dimensions before putting on the sinew, so that I would not have to expose the horn/sinew glue line when the thick sinew layer was still contracting. That would have avoided the problems with sinew lifting off.
There will be some more photos of the continuation, it is just taking a little extra time :)
I was curious to see/hear how the scoring on the horn worked vs a deeper groove when it came to lifting sinew...sorry to hear it didn't adhear like you had hoped but sharing that info has certainly helped me and likely a few others. We've had a break in the weather here in MI and the little extra warmth had me wondering my garage looking at my materials and beginning to plan my horn build. I will admit I am envious of your boiling tank and will have to keep my eyes open for such a container before I start mine. Looking forward to seeing the completed bow.