Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: Gordon on December 09, 2012, 08:45:59 pm
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http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2012/12/09/joseph_loughrey_shoots_kills_son_outside_gun_store.html
(http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2012/12/09/joseph_loughrey_shoots_kills_son_outside_gun_store.html)
But it does make me wonder, how in the world did the gun discharge while the dad was putting his son in a child seat?
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Very sad and unfortunate? How do you move on?
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Sad and very regrettable. It also highlights something that was new to me, learned only recently when I took a modern hunter safety class. There are absolutely NO gun accidents. There are unintentional discharges that may or may not have lethal results, but they are not accidents. In all cases of unintentional discharge, one or more people did not follow safe gun handling procedures.
The first rule....never point the muzzle at something you don't wanna shoot. This is the first and most important rule, it makes the difference between an unintentional discharge and "I didn't mean to shoot him!"
And I will be the first to admit I have had several unintentional discharges, MY fault each and every time, unexcusable mistakes.
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This a horrible and tragic event. Difficult even to read it..
JW, I'm with you. When I took the Texas Hunter's Safety Course that rule always stuck in my mind. Then I took a very similar course in California. The instructor drilled it home to ALWAYS always check the chamber. If you hand a firearm to another person open the action, check the chamber and them hand it over. Anytime somebody hands you a firearm you open the action and check the chamber.
Every time. No exceptions.
I once bought a 9mm beretta from a business owner here in Stephenville. I went to his office. He pulled the pistol out of his desk and proceeded to hand it to me. I asked if it was loaded. He said no. Just has bullets in the chamber. He tried to hand it to me again.
I asked him to remove the clip. He did. And tried to hand it to me again.
I asked him to open the chamber. He said. It's not loaded and tried to hand the beretta to me again. I asked him to open the chamber..
He grudgingly pulled the chamber open and a live 9mm ejected across his desk and landed on the floor. This guy had a concealed handgun license too.
Cipriano
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In the news story above, the guy had walked into a gun store with a loaded weapon. He attempted to make a deal to sell the gun. He walked out. That's three different instances when the gun should have been checked, rechecked, and rechecked again. The guy in the store that looked at the gun and declined to purchase has a moral and ethical share of the responsibility, too.
Like you, Cip, I insist the person handling the gun unload it before he hands it to me. Then I unload it. And I expect him to unload it yet again when I hand it back. More people are shot with guns EVERYONE knew wasn't loaded.
And on a funny note, I knew a wheelie bow shooter that tried to check his locked bow case at the airport only to be asked, "Is it loaded?" And it got worse, the airport wonk asked him to open the case to prove it wasn't loaded. Then the wonk DEMANDED the archer unstring the contraption! Heeeehaw! Yeah right! Eventually a supervisor came over and told the lowly TSA that it would take a $500 special machine to unstring the bow and that no passengers are allowed into the checked baggage area in the belly of the plane once they took off, so it was doubtfull that the guy was going to hijack the plane.
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Thats just horrible, and can see your point Gordon. This guy will pay in his mind for the rest of his life. I think they should at the very least revoke his gun privledges for a few yrs. It truly is a shame! :embarassed:
VMB
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I think they should at the very least revoke his gun privledges for a few yrs.
Do you think he'll ever make that mistake again?
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This just sucks. How in the world does a modern handgun just go off? If it was an autoloader, was it locked and cocked and off safe and the mainspring just failed? How come if it was being carried concealed, it ended up pointing at the child at the same time? How was he carrying it? In a waistband holster, a shoulder rig, something else? How was the muzzle pointing in the direction of the child? And handguns are engineered that even if you drop them, the odds of the weapon discharging are pretty minimal. And if it was a 1911 varient, I think they all have the grip safety as well as the manual safety.
It does make sense that the weapon was loaded. If he is carrying concealed, it has to be loaded. That at least is the law in my state, where carrying an empty handgun with a concealed permit is illegal. Perhaps carrying an empty gun is legal in other states, although that makes no sense to me.
Aside from this guy being responsible for the death of his child, this kind of neglegence results in anti-gun laws and more meat for the gun grabbers. And if everyone was as idiotic as this guy, maybe they are right. I hope they prosecute him and put him away, and his carry permit (if he has one) is revoked for life. I wouldn't want him anywhere near me or mine. As for being scarred for life, he deserves that for taking his child's life away forever.
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That's really sad and Dane, I agree a 100% with you. He should be prosecuted.
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Thanks, Mullet. I hope I didn’t come across too strongly, but this kind of “accident” infuriates me. It almost certainly had to have been criminally-reckless behavior on the part of the father for this to have even happened. Even a revolver today doesn’t need to have an empty chamber with the transfer bar safety mechanism they all are manufactured with. An older SAA (Peacemaker type revolver) or modern reproduction of one probably still should be carried this way, and maybe some very old model double action revolvers.
And think about a DA/SA auto loader. The first shot is in double action and subsequent rounds are single action. Does a kid that young even have the strength to fire a defensive handgun in the first place, after first taking it off safe? And if the kid was messing about with the handgun, what the hell was dad doing not seeing that?
Thinking about it earlier today, the way handguns are deigned and manufactured, there is just no possible way for even such a far fetched scenario to happen , such as the guy has his handgun in a shoulder rig and it falls out into the interior of his vehicle and goes off, or falls to the ground outside the vehicle and goes off. The only way I can imagine this happening is if the child somehow was playing with dad’s gun or dad somehow deliberately discharged the weapon and killed his child. A belt rig always has the muzzle down. A shoulder rig almost always has the muzzle down. A concealed belt rig has the muzzle down inside the waistband. Some rigs do have the butt facing forward, but not many. Absolutely no rigs have the muzzle pointing up and at an angle. And, I can not think of any accidental discharge situation where the shooter didn’t pull the trigger, whether he knew he was doing that or not.
Whatever happened, the gun didn't just go off.
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I'm with Dane and Eddie, something doesn't add up. Tragic to say the least. I've taught in Hunters education and agree that negligence and ignorance is the biggest problem. Though there are some autos that are more prone to an unintentional discharged it is possible with any gun when the basics rules are broken. Even with revolvers Gordon.
Brings to mind another dangerous situation. When the compound world started going to mechanical triggers some of the early models would occasionally let lose while being draw back. I rememberseeing unintentional releases often back in those days. And it still happens. I am always reminding shooters in our church archery group to keep their finger behind the trigger when pulling. Yes we have and try to steer towards "Traditional" but also include training wheel bows. :D
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Never ever unload a firearm by cycling the rounds through the chamber. When I was twelve or thirteen I was doing that with a old pump 22 and shot a hole in the ceiling. My sister ran to tell my Dad and I got my butt whipped. All the time I lived behind a gun in Vietnam I only saw one screw up. One Marine cooked off a three round burst with his M-14 auto and hit another Marine with two rounds. One round through the thigh and the other cut the Marine's penis in half.
Always an open chamber when handling guns.
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Keenan, I absolutely agree that a revolver is dangerous if handled incorrectly. I had a friend (an NRA certified firearms instructor) train me how to handle both kinds of weapons and it just seems to me that there are just more ways to screw up with a semi-automatic than a modern double-action revolver.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I've experienced a couple of instances where I've been near a shooter trying to work free a jammed semi-automatic and the shooter would get so focused on working the slide that he is not paying attention to where the barrel is pointing. It scare the sh*t out of me when I see something like that!
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Yep I agree Gordon. I've seen that several times as well. Especially dangerous when you are talking about certain model Glocks with no safety
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It is terrible that something like that should happen. I know that news articles are rarely providiing all the facts of an incident to base a decision on. But it is interesting to me that folks are looking at this as to what is the safest weapon, an auto or revolver.
SHOULDN'T WE as gun owners just say that they are ALL extremely dangerous and equally lethal and all handled with due regard, which obviously was not done.
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Well, for those that want to prosecute, which I lean in that direction...I hope you believe in EQUAL prosecution...wonder if this guy was prosecuted? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU I bet he wasn't and he's a pro! So, until they dole out equal prosecution for ALL citizens I think the loss of his child, and revoking his gun privledges is fair...don't you? As you can see sh#t happens!
We had a cop here in my state that had his kid get hold of his gun, and accidently shoot himself. (the kid) Funny the story broke then quickly was swept under the carpet....wonder if he was prosecuted?? ::) Let's not forget he's a pro!
VMB
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I have been involved in Law Enforcement for 32 years and I think it's interesting this just turned into a COP BASHING oppurtunity.
The FUNNY part is the professional law enforcement officers referred to do not make the decision if a case is prosecuted or not. It is the DISTRICT ATTORNEYS OFFICE who are all scholars of law. Officers enforce the laws, making arrests by serving warrants and such. The DA's Office can and will dimiss/decline charges often against the wishes of officers before it goes into a court room.
I will also be willing to bet that if you took a toll from officers they would be split on prosecuting or not, with the majority wanting to prosecute. Knowing that most CRIMES require intent and malice to prosecute by state staute, climbing into your car and a gun accidentally discharging would most likely not show intent to kill or intentional malice. There is lesser charges that may apply, but that will be up to the PROFESSIONALS AT THE DISTRICT ATTORNEYS OFFICE, not a police officer.
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I don't remember stating a police officer makes ANY decisions in prosecution, and am well aware who prosecutes cases as my sister is a prosecuter. Why a split?? There was either a law broken or not. I was simply trying to say...if there was intent to injure...then prosecute to the fullest extent of the law, if it was accidental.... then maybe we should be looking at a lesser punishment. As to the cop link...I was showing it COULD happen to anyone...even pro's. Although the officer in the video I seriously doubt had ANY prosecution handed down he is just as prone to accidents as others in society. So, if you want to take this as a cop bashing so be it....that was not the intent. I like you (I assume) believe in equal justice whether you wear a badge or not.
Did you read the whole thread or just skim?
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That video is rather disturbing even more so when the parent gets up carrying his child. Did he realize he had shot himself in the foot?
That's exactly how the situation occurred with me when I bought the bereta. It was "unloaded." More people have been shot by unloaded guns than should have.
Growing up my dad always told us stories. He was born and raised in Durango, Mexico with a rich oral tradition culture. He had la saying he had learned growing up that stated, "el diablo carga las armas descargadas- The devil loads unloaded guns."
The the parent this story is about what can the system possibly do to him that compares to the self induced torment I'm certain he will will live with? In an instant his life became that of a person forever marred by a tragic tragic fraction of a second.
The over used phrase, "I can't even imagine" is all that comes to mind.
Cipriano
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VMB, I read it several times and asked opinions from others trying to make certain I was not being "overly sensitive" before I posed a response. Perhaps I was, but I still do not see the need to compare the accidental shooting of a child with how a police officer can also have an accident. We all have accidents.
If your second post had been your first I certainly would not have been inclined to respond as a COP BASHING. I do feel the meaning was delivered differently and I appreciate it. Your sister has a difficult job as a prosecutor and I wish her the best.
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Is there something that leads you to believe otherwise? Nope, we are in agreement, just said it how I wanted to say it, which was different than yours I suspect.
What I find interesting is that you have chosen to be offended by folks discussing their preference in a thread titled, "This is why I prefer a revolver." Wasn't offended by "folks" at all, I did not understand what VMB meant in "HIS POST", but he replied and I understand, so I hope we are good.
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Folks it's all opinion based.. We all have differing views and backgrounds that shape our views.
Lets please ALL stay cool and level headed and take at as such.
Cipriano
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Let's let it go.....I have no problem with a misunderstanding, and can see how nclonghunter could have taken what I posted as a negative AFTER I reread it several times. I was simply trying to point out that if we hold officers at a level of proffesionalism that MOST citizens are not required to ahere to (through officer training) normal citizens can make terrible mistakes, and to throw a guy in jail for a terrible mistake is not in my opinion a REASONABLE punishment......albeit a very stupid mistake. Yes, we all have opinions, and it is very hard at times to relay them on the net.
Sorry If I offended you.....as many know if that was my intention I would not back down.
Brian
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Well said Brian, I am also sorry for my misunderstanding and response. I truly avoid such debates just for the reasons stated. I am finished with this thread.