Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: okie64 on January 13, 2013, 02:21:15 pm
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Did my first sinew job on an osage bow this morning and it got me to thinking is this really gonna be worth the time and effort that Ive put into it. Ive had the sinew processed for a couple of years and I finally had a hankerin to give it a try. The osage stave was a bit short which gave me a good reason to try it out. Not sure that I will ever use sinew again as I guess I might be a little too lazy for it. So whats everyones thoughts? Is it worth the effort or not?
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Yes.
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If you're doing a typical longbow say, over 64 inches long then maybe not. The benefit gained from sinew is cancelled out due to the extra mass it adds. However,
If you're building a shorter bow (my niche) you are able to get much longer draw length than typical of the selfbow. Other benefits sure, but this is the biggest, in my mind.
Yes also, for the experience.
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Yes and no..depends..and personal preference ;)
I only see it fit for Asiatic horn bows,or a historic reproduction bow,or a bow that will be pulled more than half of its total working limb length. Other than that its not worth it IMHO,because I can make an unbacked bow pull half its total working limb length and have great results yet. Sinew takes much more time for only maybe a few fps more,or not if made poorly. Just not worth it in most normal cases IMO.
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Like Matt and Chris said it depends on where and how you use it. Definately worth it for short bows so the wood can be drawn farther and to allow the sinew/glue to achieve its potential. The Sinew/glue mixture is physically heavier than wood so you have to get the potential from the sinew to be worth it and that doesn't happen with longer bows.
Gary Davis gave an osage stave at the Classic 2 years ago that was short and marked 35# for a kids bow. I reflexed the tips and added 3 courses of backstrap sinew and let it cure in reflex. The stave was about 1 1/4" at the widest when I got it from Gary. The bow turned out to be 56#@26"(tillered out to 28") and is 53"t/t. In this case the sinew gets worked pretty well at 26" where I draw it to and better at 28".
My sinew backed bows usually take from 2 to 4 months to complete but most of that time is in the curing process.
Sinew backed bows are a lot of trouble to make but in the right circumstance they are worth the effort. If you live in a humid environment a sinew bow is pretty whimpy but in dry climates they shine. As far as Native bows are concerned the Pacific NW is the only humid area where sinew backed bows were common if I'm not mistaken. They were pretty common on the Plains but not in the eastern half of the US.
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well worth the effort as far as I'm concerned....
but I happen to enjoy processing sinew (though it's been a while since I've done so.)
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Depends on what your effort is worth as well. Its not that hard or difficult to do.
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I would say that if your arnt going to have wet weather then it could very well be worth it. If you plan on using the bow when its raining then you may want to reconsider, or back it with a snakeskin to make it waterproofed? something like that.
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IMO if your bow is over 52 inches in length it's not needed. I use it to extend draw length and add weight at the same time.
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My opinion is closest to JonW's. I used to make a lot of short bows and so did a lot of sinew backing. Now, aesthetically, I prefer making and using longer bows (over 60 inches) so there's no meaningful benefit to sinew backing. I haven't backed a bow in a couple years, although I do still gather sinew from a local game processor and trade it for things.
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The stave that I put it on is 56" long with 7" of non working handle and mild recurves heated in. So that only leaves me with about 24" or so of working limb and I plan to draw it out to about 27" or so. I might try some back sinew next time, Ive heard its easier to use. Ive never really had an interest in backing a bow with sinew, I guess I mainly just wanted to do it for the experience and to be able to say Ive done it.
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The author of TBB said that sinew backing is well worth it if you arnt in humid weather simply because it will up the draw and increase the speed. Its biggest weakness is water >:D so unlike all these osage self bows you can throw in the lake while you take a swim.
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You don't have to sinew the bow full length. You could sinew the middle 50" of a 70 " bow and get great benefit of its elasticity without the added weight to the tips. Sometimes a stave is susceptable to set in areas for whatever reason and sinew will fix that.
Personally, the least amount of sinew the better as it can take on moisture and affect the bow. So for me it only gets the thinnest possible, single layer.
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I think its worth it if used on the right bow. There's nothing sweeter than a short sinew backed bend in the handle bow with flipped tips and a snake skin backing. I like to sinew back one bow every winter and then finish it up in late spring or summer.
What kind of glue did you use with your sinew? To get the full benefit you should use hide/sinew glue.
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I think its worth it if used on the right bow. There's nothing sweeter than a short sinew backed bend in the handle bow with flipped tips and a snake skin backing. I like to sinew back one bow every winter and then finish it up in late spring or summer.
What kind of glue did you use with your sinew? To get the full benefit you should use hide/sinew glue.
I didnt use hide glue. I used tb3 on this one. Another bowyer told me that tb3 would work just fine and even better than hide glue because it would be less susceptible to moisture. I may try hide glue next time just to see the difference in workability.
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you wont get nearly as much reflex out of it
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Hide glue will probably be more work than TB, but you will get more benefit from the sinew.
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Sinew is too magical to pass up.
It gets easier over time. You'll get your own rhythm for it.
Then it goes pretty quick. Then it's just a waiting game :)
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you wont get nearly as much reflex out of it
What are you basing that on? Have you tried it with different glues or are you simply going off what someone else has told you? Im not trying to be a smart a%$, Im just curious what makes you believe that?
Hide glue will probably be more work than TB, but you will get more benefit from the sinew.
Do you mean it will make the sinew work more by pulling the limbs into more reflex?
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Yes and yes,tb will work and hold down the sinew but it drys way quicker so won't let the sinew draw like hide glue which dries at about the same rate as the sinew. Putting it on with tb is more or less for protection,And yes I have used it both ways. :) If I am going to the trouble of sinew it will be with hide glue, otherwise I just use rawhide and TB3. jmo. :)
Pappy
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Thanks for the info Pappy, that makes sense to me.
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I'm with pappy..I have used both as well and hide glue is better..plain n simple. To add to what pappy said take a thin slat board and rip it in half lengthwise..coat one with hide glue,and coat one with titebond...and guess what happens...the hide glue alone will pull the slat into some reflex as it shrinks,but titebond will not. If you use titebond you basically have to induce that reflex,and yes it'll work,but you won't get as much shrinkage from the sinew it and won't be maximizing the sinew to its full potential IMHO. And yes guys use TB for sinew,but do you see hornbow bowyers using it? Nope...hmmm..I wonder why?
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I guess it's how you look at it. I don't look at sinewing bows as "work". Rather, something I enjoy investing all my time and energy into. I see it for what it will be once I'm done with it (a meat maker). So, yes it is worth my time and effort.
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Just the few sinewd bows I've done I'd say it's worth it.Even at 60" long.To me it's all about after shot profile and sinew done right on the right bow will show more after shot reflexed profile in most cases negating the weight.Like Bryce said the process gets easier every time.Not the waiting though.
Hide glue is best.Also there's more uses for sinew besides backing a bow.Mostly wraps but it's hard to beat for effectiveness.It's a good tool to have around.
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ok some might call me crazy but about 2 weeks ago i sinew backed a 70" r/d ironwood longbow i had it braced at about 5" and was looking good tiller-wise, but it had really bad runoff grain, i had rawhide but was saving it for another bow so i sinewed just the working limbs, so the last 8" of the limbs have no sinew the limbs are 1.5" at the fades and a straight taper to just under 3/8" nocks, it's not a really fast bow but it's no dog either, it has about 3" of reflex and 1" of deflex in the 15" closest to the fades, it has verry little string follow (less than 1/2") and it's extremely stable with no hand shock and i can eisely put 6 arrows in pieplate at 30 yards, so maybe the sinew wasn't needed but on the other hand i have a real good shooting stable bow. so yes i think sinew is worth the effort if used in the right way a bow that would work without sinew should not be sinewed.
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The first time I did a sinew job I thought it was a real pain. Like anything, with a little practice and practical experience, the job isn't so bad. Processing the sinew is probably the worst part of it all. Those tendons are tough stuff to pull apart! I do three or four and my hands get tired.
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I just sinewed my first. It's a 60 in. hop horn beam. It had a bad dent in the middle of the bottom limb that wanted to put out a tiny longitudinal crack...rather than wrap the spot, I thought it was a good opportunity to use the backstrap sinew I had processed.
I appreciated Mike Yancey sharing with me about the one finger, "pat / pat / pat" method. I agree that it is only work if you have that mindset. I was once in the garden complaining to myself and feeling miserable, when I got a cell phone call from a friend...he ask, "what are you doing?" I answered, "i'm in the garden", and before I could start complaining, he said, "well you're doing what you enjoy." I knew he was right...the rest of the day was a joy.
Building bows is such a joy...may it never be anything else.
Lyle
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Thanks for all the responses and opinions fellers. I probably will try some again, I think at the time that I posted this topic I was just a little frustrated with the time it took and the mess that it made. The stave had 2.5 inches of reflex starting out so we'll see how it turns out.
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee503/Jamey_Burkhart/6160EBD4-81D6-4730-9827-C6CF8AAE9882-138-00000099EF8E44EE.jpg)
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You will refine your techique as you do more, its gets mush easier trust me. I stay away from leg tendons and use only back tendons as well, they are much easier to process.
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I'd prefer to just have a self bow, mainly because its just less work.
Most of my bows are hickory areund 60-65" long so they don't really benefit that much.
And because I'm not yet that good of a hunter, I'd have to buy the sinew which doesn't work well with my $0 bow budget. :)
I did make a west coast short bow last year that was a self and took a good bit of set, I could see that bow with a sinew backing and some extra reflex.
I've also used hemp backing to repair a bow which had a real bad back splinter and it still works today. That is another reason I'd back.
For me, its worth it on a short bow or a damaged bow, but I prefer my longer bows just as they are. :)
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Just thought Id post a few pics of the almost finished bow(no finish or grip yet). Ended up at 50lbs at 27" and still holds 1.5" of reflex so to answer my own question, yes it was worth the effort. Since the sinew was glued down with tb3 does it need any protection over it or can I leave it exposed? I kinda like the way it looks and dont really want to cover it up but I will if necessary.
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee503/Jamey_Burkhart/077F715C-0CBD-4523-B289-48E900A9F0FA-11481-00001D9228BF7EF6.jpg)
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee503/Jamey_Burkhart/9AE010E0-BB1E-45E6-B4AA-A5FF2E8C478E-11481-00001D911DC4A266.jpg)
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee503/Jamey_Burkhart/AEC3EE17-CC14-4BE8-9491-8588E24DF15E-11481-00001D911AAE5025.jpg)
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You did a nice job. I have sinewed bows and greatly fluctuating humidity levels. I can grab any one of those bows at any time and hit where I'm aiming at 25 yds., so don't worry about the idea that your sinew is going to "absorb moisture and slow the bow down". Generally speaking, you won't notice it.
After my last sinew job I baked out any moisture over the period of a month then took a block of parafin wax, warmed it, and rubbed it over the sinew. I then heated it until it soaked into the sinew, wiped off the excess, and so now its waterproof. I now keep those sinew bows in a warm, dry environment knowing that I can take them out into the rain forest and not worry about the moisture for at least a week.
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Sinew just won't improve the cast of a longer bow, the sinew just does not get stretched enough to start working. The working sinew causes the belly to take more compression, in effect multiplying the amount of bend the limb is actually subjected to.
I don't think sinewing is as exciting as I used to think it was. I used to sinew back everything, short bows, recurves, quivers, arm guards.... I guess I got it out of my system. So says the guy that is going to whip out a series of 5 sinewed horsebows this summer. But I am doing it as part of a seminar I am doing at the Rendezvous at Fort Union this June. It's messy enough in a garage where I can have buckets of warm soapy water at hand, electric burners to warm glue, benches/clamps/modern electricity/etc. But no, I gotta do do it in da dirt in front of a bunch of touristas!
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Sinewing to me is an art in itself.Applying more of it where most of the bending work is being done.Crowning it to make the bow to work in tension on the central part of the limb and leaving 8" of the tips with no sinew on it are all ways to get the most out of it and not wasting it where it can slow your cast down.These things are all learned when it gets easier for you and you want more performance from it.To me sinewing a bow is like waiting for christmas as a kid.I'll go so far as to say it is the great equalizer to FG bows.Besides a very well designed and tillered self bow or bamboo backed bow and you don't learn how to do that either without doing more and making it easier.So you get what you put into it.
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BTW.Nice bow you got there.
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Sorry to disagree with you JW but,sinew on a holmgaard longer bow will get stretched enough and improve cast if the bow is tillered to work on the inner limbs into the fades.With the tips being narrowed properly.You can bet your last dollar on that.
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Sinew actually relieves the belly of compression by thinning it so it can take more bend.I.E. changing the nuteral plane.It is the best energy storing backing there is out there period.
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second on what beadman just wrote its a bow saver and a power promoter. and a good job on the bow to .
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I'd say yes and no.
No for a longbow (Over 55"), because it doesn't reflex it that much, just pisses you off because it comes off with just a little bit of moisture...
For recurved shortbow (55" and under), that is a big yes. It reduces set, reflexes the bow heavily, and increases draw weight.
A way to keep moisture from getting into a sinew backing is to back it, wait 3 months to let it dry, then snakeskin back it.