Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Dan K on January 25, 2013, 03:10:50 pm
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OK folks, here’s my first post and my first bow! I was gifted an oak stave (thanks Steve.) and have some pics showing my layout -if I can get them into this post. So if they don't show up someone help me and I'll upload them. The OAL is 70” with a 4” handle and 2” fadeouts. The tips are 1/2” and the handle is 1 1/4” wide. The stave has a natural reflex which is why I put the handle where it is. The problem I have is the edge of both limbs are right on the edge of the stave. The top one is the worst and marked by my foot in the pic. Can this work or do I need to make the bow thinner? I know the wood will tell you what to do but I need help translating. I don’t speak fluent “wood” yet!
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Welcome Dan. No pics showing yet. But that layout sounds good. I haven't made a bow from white oak yet, but I believe you are on the right track to succeeding with your first bow. a 70" length is good and safe.
For pics, try using the attachments and other options link just below where you type the body or your reply. You have to resize your pics to under 200kb file size. The other option is to use an image hosting site such as photobucket and then pasting the image link into the body of your post.
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sounds good to me also but you may want to make it a bit wider at the fades, say maybe 1 3/4"
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The bow layout can go to the edge of the stave as long as the stave has enough thickness on the edge and there aren't any cracks or other problems. If you stave is wedge shaped then you might have a problem.
You need to get that pic posted so we can see what you are working with.
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Thank you for your input osage outlaw and killir duck. Real confidence booster! I will improve on the pic uploads over time. Thanks for the tutorial on the uploads Carson, thankful they even show up.
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No, you have to follow the lateral grain, Dan. When the grain goes to the left so must your pencil line, etc. Check this out.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/layout.html
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Sounds like you've got a plan, Dan. ;) I'm still not able to see any pics. I use photobucket and then paste in the image code. Once you get it all set up then it is a breeze and the pictures are so much bigger and nicer. I can hardly see peoples pictures when they are attachments.
@Killerduck, I think you misunderstood him. I'm pretty sure his bow will be 2" wide at the fades and only the handle section will be 1 1/4". That's my understanding anyway.
Edit: Okay, if I click on the links then I can see the pictures. I agree with George that you should ideally follow the waggles in the grain. You don't necessarily have to abandon your current layout, you can adjust what you have to achieve that. Just look carefully for places where the grain deviates but your lines are straight and then pencil in some new lines that follow the grain and maintain the proper width and simply follow the new lines when you get to that point. Here is an example. The black lines are your original lines and the blue lines are the ones you would add to account for the grain. the x's show the part that you would now ignore favoring the new blue lines that follow the grain. Hope that makes sense.
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e113/olivewn/Untitled_zps54cebe93-1_zps4b717793.jpg)
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I can see the pics (I have to open them in Photoshop). Like the Outlaw said: we can't tell how thick the edge is there. It might work but I agree with George, rather than trying to get a board straight bow outa that, it's better to follow the centerline of the stave, if the stave kinks to the right, the center line goes to the right. Then your bow edges will follow the centerline and you will have a wavy shaped (snakey) bow. Could tell better if we could see the edge view and the belly view to see what the grain and centerline look like on the belly.
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Saved my stave guys! Thanks. I like the direction this is going and "the snaky look" will add some caracter for sure. I think it may bring the edges into the middle more and give me more meet to work with. Right now, the trouble spot takes an abrupt taper into the center of the belly (kid of a knife edge) so I will need to bring it in somehow. I'll adjust my lines and take a look. I'll post other pics to show what I end up with.
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I have a deep respect for bowyers. I've been working with degrees, minutes, angles and circles, cutting wood my whole life but I've never followed the grains of a log coupled with geometric design! Quite a remarkable change and challenge. Still not sure if I've got it right but I see the difference in the layout. One question: when laying out the centerline (I liken this to the spine of an animal) that part was not so bad. When laying out the sides, I had to cross the grain in order to go from 2" at the fades to 1/2" at the tips. Is there a special way to determine when and how to do this or just gradually bring the two sides closer together as you work your way up the limbs from the handle? The new layout is in red. It's getting a bit messy, sorry.
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3551_zpsab9e0483.jpg)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3557_zps8d358f6b.jpg)
(http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/dankirkpatrick/IMG_3558_zps08a4172c.jpg)
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A certain amount of grain violation is unavoidable (like when you are tapering) the goal is to minimize it. If you did your damndest to have the limbs snake along with the grain as you tapered them consistently from your fade to your tip then I think you are golden. honestly with the design and wood type you are using you probably could have gotten away with ignoring the grain and making the limbs straight (not saying it's a good idea). So like I said, if you did your best then I'd call it good. It looks good from here. What tool are you going to use to rough out the stave and get it down you your lines? Most people use a draw knife, a hatchet or a bandsaw. You don't have much to take off so that will make it easy. Heck it probably wouldn't even take you much time to do with a coarse rasp. My advice in the spots where it's wiggly is to leave a little around it for now while you're using 'rough' tools. that way you can hone in on the snakes more carefully and make the curves more even and appealing than your initial layout lines. Looking good, Dan!
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I plan to use them all just to familiarize myself. I planned to use the bandsaw because I have one but the time it takes to make a jig to hold this thing straight i could rasp it out. I think it's safer too. I can get up close and intimate with the grain. Next questions I have are how to cut the belly and taper the limbs. Is there a thickness to start out with prior to tillering? How thick do you make the handle?
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well, a good rule of thumb for me, is to go about 3/4 inch thick or a bit thicker so you can work your way down, although 1 inch wouldnt hurt, the other thing to keep in mind, is to get it to a certain thickness and then test the floor tiller, if its hard to get to bend but is bending a bit then a bit more off and you are getting close. kind of hard to explain.
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For your design the belly will remain pretty consistent from the end of the fades to the tips. There will be a subtle taper but not much. There is no strict number for the starting thickness, it will always vary for every design and piece of wood. I know that's not very helpful but it's the truth. Your goal is to get the thickness down to the point where the stave is just starting to bend a little when you force a tip into the floor and push on the handle. This a place where experienced bowyers can save themselves a bit of time and get it closer to bending right away based on experience and beginner bowyers will take a lot of time going slowly until the bow starts to bend. So my advice is to take some off the belly and try to bend it, if it doesn't bend take off a little more and repeat until you get it moving. Then the fun starts! >:D As for the handle just leave it nice and thick for now, You dont need to worry about shaping it yet. You can get pretty far into tillering before you need to give it any thought. Just make it flat for now.
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Hey Dan, glad to see you're taking it on. You have a lot of flexibility in dimensions because you are leaving the bow long. Also because you just want to make "A" bow, any bow, at this stage (in case you didn't know that :) ).
With a ferrier's rasp I can take that wood down quick so I would use a bandsaw and cut that belly down to just over the handle depth that you want since the handle will be the thickest part of the bow in the end. I would go, like, 1.5" with the bandsaw and then use the rasp to get down to what will be .6" or so before the wood will start to bend.
I've had bad luck with the bandsaw and truth is I would leave probably two inches of stave and then go to the rasp. Unless you have a sled or something to gauge your cut on the saw? If you do I want it.
Its going to be a little intimidating working the fades into the handle and all that. I highly recommend you come by at that stage. You know my schedule........
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Thanks guys. I'm pretty intimidated for sure. I think I'll cut it to two inches and then play with it for awhile trying the different tools. I tested the moisture content and it's pegging at 20% Did you cut on yours yet Steve?
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No, I can't. I bent my bandsaw blade trying to rip it and tried two hatchets but they don't work well. Too many knots for a drawknife. So I need to fix the bandsaw.
I hope you're right about the moisture because I had some set from two bows that i made from it and it seemed excessive. So I will be sure to dry this stuff before tillering. I plan to heat treat over fire anyway so hopefully that helps. I don't have a meter but need one.
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Hey I got a stave from Steve as well... Though I cut mine out a bit different :)
Gonna be my chinook war bow
(http://i1251.photobucket.com/albums/hh544/bryceott/9C823422-AFA1-4AC6-B787-097516523A63-6671-000008EEC18C1030.jpg)
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I ran it through the band saw and checked moisture when I was through. I was getting readings here and there at 10 to 20% the higher was at the ends and the middle section around the handle. The areas in between were between 10 and 15% I brought mine inside and will lay it between the wife and I tonight to dry out...just kidding. I did bring it inside to dry. I will need some coaching as to when and how to finish this.
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Keen on that one Bryce. My kids are Chinook and would be proud to see it when your done. Did you do a moisture check? I'm sure it's the same if it's from the same log. Maybe I'll go by Steve's this week end with my meter and a blade for his saw. Keep me posted.
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You got the idea Dan. Don't worry about the grain violations on the side to side taper. I usually just do my back profile taper by eye but you could get more scientific about it and make a mark every 3" or so down the length of the centerline of the back and then make your marks to side at the 3' mark gradually bring them closer to the centerline in increments to get an even taper if you have to (hope that makes sense). To gauge the thickness taper I cheat and use this primitive marking gauge (after you cut the back profile to shape) to make a line down the side. This gives me a consistent line that I can stay to the outside of at the fade end (thicker) and make it disappear at the tip end (thinner). It also follows any humps and bumps of the back surface. For the weight of most of the bows I make 5/8" and 1/2" thick marks work out just right (your results may vary depending on wood type and desired draw weight). I make the side mark on both sides of the limb.
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Thank you Randman, This makes perfect sense. And I did get scientific, way too scientific with the measuring. When I don't know I error on the side of caution. As you know once you cut it it's cut. Cool jig! It's these little treasures people share that make this site invaluable so thanks again.
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I have a bow! It's not done yet. But it's a bow. Thanks to Steve and Bryce for the one on one tutoring last night. I'm lucky enough to have experienced Bowyers living in my area who are willing to donate time to helping me. For you apprentices out there, if you can find someone around you (who knows what they're doing) to mentor with don't hesitate to do it. These guys saved me a month of cutting a little here and a little there and questioning if I did it right. If your a visual learner like I am, you need someone to push you aside and rasp out everything you just did so you know what the people online are talking about. All of you have helped so much to build my knowledge but last night it was all converted to intelligence. And I have a bow! I'll post some pics when I can.
Thx and cheers!