Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: ionicmuffin on March 15, 2013, 09:21:48 pm
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i was considering a scalloped bow or very similar for the white ash board i have. Its almost 2 inches wide, nice grain and ring orientation, and its 60 inches long. My questions here are: firstly, what style of bow has ash best responded to? Does it do better as a flat or slightly convex belly? If i would like to make it bend in the handle, how wide should the handle be? Does heat treating help when using it on ash? Does ash respond well to having re-flexed limbs? If so how much is enough? im trying to get a sense of what direction to take this bow. My target weight is somewhere around 40-50 at around 26 ish.
Also, do you have any other tips, hints, thoughts, observations about ash?
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I've never used ash before but I know you would want a flat belly
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I did some digging around and found one of half eyes bows. It was ash and it was 46" ntn. It was pulling 44# @ 27" and it was 1 1/2 tapering down to 3/4 at the tips. So that considered, would 55 inches be a problem? i can make the limbs 1 3/4 inches wide tapering to 3/4 inches? Making the belly flat makes sense. i was considering putting a very slight trapping of the back on it to help balance the wood.
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Wow where did you find that bow ??? 46 inch bow pulling 27 inchs ? Theres no way it was that short drawing to 27 inchs even if it was bend through the handle
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php?topic=25626.0
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Wow that's crazy
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i know! i think hes better than he lets on lol. makes it look easy
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Yea definetly to get a bow that short with that long of a draw you need just about perfect tiller
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I made one not too long ago that was only 1 1/16" wide at the handle and was 57" ntn down to 5/8" at the nock, it pulled 40# @28". It had a flat belly and back and I heat treated about 3 times during the tillering process. Heat made a huge difference and it has only taken about 1/4" set.
Grady
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well, at this point i have started tillering. kind of... ive got it to 1 1/8 at the handle and 1 1/2 at the beginning of the fades and tappers to 3/4 at the tips. I have been doing all the wood removal with hand tools, more specifically, a scrapper. its really slow going but i hope that helps me to be patient. Its probably 1/2 inch thickness and its bending on the top fade the most. the lower is pretty stiff and the upper is bending all the way to half way out. the outer parts are still stiff. If i were to flip the tips how would i go about it? dry or steam? no sharp corners right? how long to i keep the heatgun there or steam it? should the bow be bending at the tips before i attempt this? what about heat tempering. how long do i need to hold the heatgun over the area? how far should it be from the wood? what should i be careful of when doing this? can i put 2 inches of reflex in or something while im tempering?
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If you do decide to heat this one .............. ;). For flipping the tips, I wet the wood with cloth and keep it near by. Clamp to caul and put a quick grip clamp on the tip. heat the wood until the water evaps. Re-wet and repeat a couple of times. you will soon notice the water evaps. as you apply. At this point ,apply pressure to the clamp as you are heating and you will feel it "melt " a little. Don't force it,just give the clamp what the wood will take. When you have it a little farther than you want (20% or so) stop applying the water and toast it until it just starts to change colour. Ash doesn't have much in the way of sugar so the colour won't change as quick as some others. That doesn't mean you aren't changing the structure of the wood . This will "set " the bends and help to keep them from pulling out. Wetting the wood prevents it from case hardening as you heat and prevents scorching the wood.Try it on a piece of scrap first to get the feel of it. You want the wood to be thin enough to bend but thick enough that the bend doesn't pull out when drawing.1/2" or so. You need good straight grain for this as well.
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so let me see if ive got this. When i go to flip the tips i should have a caul? do i need a full length one? i understand the melting part, ive had that happen. Your saying that i should wet it often right? also, should i round off the edges like i do on the back of the bow to keep it from raising a splinter? When ive been heat treating it, is there a way of knowing if it is done if it doesnt change color? the tips are just over half inch but is a tad thinner about 4 inches from the tip, should i even them out? I dont have a caul atm but i could make a full length one if it would work better. Right now i have a 2x10 or 12 that is around 25-30 inches long. i can use that to make a better partial caul. do you have any pictures of what you use to flip the tips on yours? i know that mine may not be the best, although its worked for some of them ive always had them splinter on me even if its not very deep. but ive never used the water method you described. Ive always been done in 10 mins tops for each tip...maybe too quick i think. i remember that someone else told me that the reason why i get the splinters lifting is that i dont have the tips super smooth. it has to be similar in smoothness to the back of the bow so it doesnt lift a splinter? should i be reflexing and heat tempering the bow first or should i skip the reflexing and just do flipping of tips? i understand the part about heat tempering the tips to keep it from pulling out, that makes sense.
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ah well. might just have to wing it. see what happens lol
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Partial caul will do. It gives the wood support so it spreads the stress out instead of looking for the weekest point. It also gives it a shape to conform to. I wet the wood ,heat until it evaps, re-wet only four or five times . That should give you enough heat to bend . The wood will dictate that. Yes , round over the edges of anything you want to bend. The wood will change colour ,just not as quick as Maple for example. Try for just starting to change . If the wood splinters ,it's because it was too dry,too thick ,grain run off, too tight radius,bent too quick or not hot enough. Or any combination of the above and likely a couple I missed. It's the same as tillering. If you have a grain violation or uneven thickness, the stress will all be concentrated on the weekest spot. Remember , the longer you heat it the dryer it gets. Like a concentrated kiln. If you hold the heat gun on it long enough ,it will catch fire. As you can see from the pic, I have a mark on the caul that I use as a reference point to get the same bend. The caul is a gradually tightening curve so I can use it for all different bends depending on where I clamp and where I bend to. I measure from the tip and line it up on that pencil mark,say 8" I then make my bend and measure from the tip to the edge of the caul. When I do the other tip I just repeat the process to match it up.!5 minutes give or take for each tip. let it cool for a couple of hours on the caul. Wait untill the next day to work with it again.
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OK! so i just got my first real and successful steam bend in! i left if for 45 mins and then i clamped it down, although im not so sure i would have needed the metal strip but i used it anyway. I was heating it and it just didnt seem to move at all. so i just did it with steam, which apparently works REALLY well with ash lol. Here are the pics, it should work out great but if not then ill have another board to do. But so far i just need to replicate the bend near perfectly. not too big of a deal, i marked where i have to have the tip.
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Steam does work great ,especially if you have a larger bend or thicker piece. backer strip never hurts either(needs a nice flat piece like a board to be effective. Looking good!
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thanks! im doing the other side now. I was supprised to fine NO signs of damage to the belly and back of the bow! im glad nothing has been damaged
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alright!!!!! so i just bent in the other tip this morning! now to let it cool! looks like there's no damage to the limb either, which i suspect that the steel strap, or in this case, giant 71 inch steel ruler was the one that stopped any damage. So, after its cooled off and dried i can begin again! quick question though. how long does in need to return to normal MC content? i can stick it next to my dehumidifier, unfortunately its set to 55% so im not sure how much good that will do. i could also put it in my room and have my heater on at 72 degrees.
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here is my progress so far, i dont really like the look of the curve but it will serve the purpose. the tip on the right is bent more than the tip on the left. the left one was taken out around 8 hrs ago and i just took out the other one. i have a feeling the left one pulled out a bit, theres maybe an inch of difference between the two. So how long do i need to keep it unstressed before i can start again?
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quick question though. how long does in need to return to normal MC content? i can stick it next to my dehumidifier, unfortunately its set to 55% so im not sure how much good that will do. i could also put it in my room and have my heater on at 72 degrees.
I know it is counter-intuitive, but steambending wood actually DRIES OUT the wood. The same holds true for boiling wood, or dry heat bending it. So you do not want to put the bow in a dehumidifier or a hot box! Yet, you still have to wait for the wood to return to a healthy moisture content. I personally prefer to do that in the same room where I store my wood/bows since I know the resulting EMC will be favorable there. Opinions may vary here, but I think waiting for two days to reach a health moisture content is sufficient. It may not have reached EMC by that time, but the level of moisture should be high enough to continue tillering. I've found a 75% moisture recovery after heat belly tempering an elm flatbow in 18 hours directly after belly tempering (so 75% of the initially lost moisture was regained in 18 hours).
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ok, thanks! im not going to be impatient ill just wait till around this time tuesday. by then i will have a good amount of time to work on it.
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here is my progress so far, i dont really like the look of the curve but it will serve the purpose. the tip on the right is bent more than the tip on the left.
I couldn't see a pic for this last post but I am watching this thread with great interest because I also have one of those Lowes 60" ash wheelbarrow handles that has almost perfect quartersawn grain on it. I plan on splitting it down the middle and getting 2 quartersawn staves out of it to make either a halfeye/badley bent scalloped edge bow and maybe a plains style gullwing or a eastern woodlands bendy handle style.
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you know what. i did the exact same thing with mine. except i made sure that the rounded part would be the belly side and the side i cut would be the back. its not perfect, but its pretty darn close. If you want i can email you a picture of the current profile. Based on my experience with this piece i HIGHLY recommend steaming ash to get the bends you want. I was looking at some steam bending info and it stated that ash can be bent around as small a radius as 4.5 inches with a steel strap. so if you want really nice curves then thats the best you can get, however, sounds like your going for something that resembles half eyes scalloped bow out of ash, hes the reason i believe i can get a good bow from this. I have seen no damage that is visible except maybe the startings of a very small splinter that will be gone once i finish the bow. im very proud of how its gone so far and for 12 $ i really did get a good deal with the handle. basically i payed 6$ per bow stave and its really an incredible bender.
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Here is the one I made from a wheel barrow handle. It was really easy to bend and work. I was very impressed with the wood it was really begging to be a bow.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,37653.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,37653.0.html)
Grady
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I was looking at some steam bending info and it stated that ash can be bent around as small a radius as 4.5 inches with a steel strap.
Did it mention a thickness for that? The radius a piece of wood can be bent to is directly relative to the thickness.The thinner it is ,the tighter the radius. Probably an obvious statement , but one to add to your toolbox if you don't already have it ;)
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Ash is typically what was used for the old antique "steam bent" chairs and you can see from the pic how tight a curve can be bent
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yeah that was for 1 inch of thickness if i remember correctly
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I don't recall ever seeing bentwood furniture of Ash. Usually Beech. This one looks like beech as well. Not saying it isn't out there. Ash does bend very well though. Any pics of the progress?
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oh sorry heres the pic
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Yeah I've seen them with beech too and I've seen them with both in the same chair. The pic I posted is probably a new one as well. I just pulled it off the web to illustrate what type of chair and bend I was talkin about.
Lookin good muffin. Can't wait to see it done.
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glad to hear that, now that the limb that was holding more reflex is now evening out to a little under 3 inches i think it will be balanced again. I will say, when i laid out this bow i marked center, then the bottom of the handle got 3 inches and the top got 1. so the top limb is longer and the bottom is shorter, that's part of the reason i gave the bottom limb the best grain and the top got a bit more wavy but is still really quite strait. looking forward to getting it finished up. maybe this saturday i can start putting oil on, but im getting ahead of myself. tiller tuesday finish later.
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Randman- It is an excellent ilustration of just what can be accomplished with bending wood.Thanks for posting.
Icon- looking good! If I know what kind of finish I want, I sometimes lay down a coat or two of oil base stain on the back before tillering. Same idea as working fat or oil into the back.Not quite as good but seems to help when things get dry here. If the bow fails ,you are only out a few mins. of your time,if it holds ,you're ahead of the game .
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well. seeing as this will be given to someone, ill just wait to put the finish on once I've gotten it very smooth. I should try it with one of my bows though.
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k, time to start tillering again. since im new to tillering bows so they are still bending rather than just being static tips ill start posting progress often.
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alright heres where im at right now. ill see what i can do about making it a plain back round next time. what do i need to work on? its definitely feeling very nice and heavy >:D
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ok, heres where i am now. 20 inches and its looking ok, but im sure im missing a bunch.
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:'( no replies! shall i just wing it?
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Looks slightly stiffer on the right side
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Yea right side mid limb id take alittle off
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sounds good.
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Yeah that's what I see too muffin, little stiff on the right. stay away from the middle and work on it last.
Lookin good! You're gettin awful close to short string time (if you're not there already).
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sweet! ill work on it tomorrow probably. thursday i have time and friday too. i know why the right is still stiff. Its the fact that its shorter than the other. The other one is like 2 inches longer and the bottom is 2 inches shorter. Well see where im at tomorrow! thanks for your advice randman and joec123albe!
Heres what it looks like braced, or roughly like that.
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Well, it might not look exactly like that at brace (and it might). I've found bracing it is one of the tests to see if you've done a good job so far because the short string has a way of putting different stresses on it than a long string. That's why you try to get a short string on it as soon as possible. If it looks good at brace right off the bat, it sure makes your job easier.
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why 2" shorter?
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the center is still the center, but i made the bottom of the handle 3 inches from center, and the top is one. This is how i learned it from bryce, and this is how i make most of my bows now. So if you take one inch off the bottom limb and add it to the top limb it will be 2 inches longer than the bottom one. that the entire reason i gave the bottom limb better grain. although its going to bend in the handle a bit anyway so i dont think it will hurt anything at all.
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well, heres where it gets nasty. Just one more explosion. My fault entirely, i have a feeling that it was still at a high draw weight and would have been at around 40 lbs at brace, took it past brace while bracing it and it blew. should have kept it on the long string and just tillered it out further.
Time to start over.
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Ouch Muffin! That's really disappointing! :'( Unfortunately, I can tell by the way it broke, that piece had severe runout. Those breaks (both of them) happened along the natural split line of the grain. That demonstrates the reality of boards sawn from the log and not split. That's especially important when wood is quartersawn. They may look straight but the grain actually runs through the piece at a diagonal if you look at the side. That should have been visible on the side of the board. If you still have the other half of that wheel barrow handle, the grain would be the same and if you tried to make a bow from it, the result would be the same. On that board I would have left it full width at the handle also (although I don't think that would even have helped).
Time to make another........Get back on that horse
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so, on the side what exactly am i looking for? id rather take away a large amount from this than to walk away thinking it was a freak of nature.
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Seems like if i just keep breaking enough bows ill be a bow makin masta in no time :laugh: ::)
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I found a couple of illustrations to show how a board is cut from a log. The first shows the quartersawn board running straight down the log. The second show the quartersawn board cut at a slant through the log. That's where the runout comes. The third is a pic you put up on a previous post (although it is a little different because I can tell by the lines on top of the board and the face we are looking at, the board is rift sawn - annual rings diagonal on the END of the board - so we can see annual growth rings on the top and the side) What is important in your picture is the "RAYS". they are running diagonal. The rays will follow the pink line in the second pic. That is the line the board is going to follow if it is split (like in your pic) The rays on Oak are very visible (on the quarter face on oak they are also the "tiger" stripe looking marks but they look like little flecs on the edge pic). Ash is much tougher to see because the rays are tiny but they should be there. I'm thinking on your board, they are running on a diagonal and that's how your bow split/broke. IF NOT and they are running straight (parallel with the edges of the board) then it was a freak of nature. ;) I'll try to take some good pics of the ash wheel barrow handle I have to show the rays on the side and post them because on mine. They are running straight and parallel with the edges of the board. And I'm hoping I don't have the same problem with mine that you had with yours.
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ok i think i get the picture, i need strait ring orientation and also strait grain on ALL sides right?
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i should also say, as far as i can tell they were strait rays, which leads me to believe i just hadnt fixed tiller before bracing. and i did it the step through method. Either way i will be careful next time.
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Too bad that one blew ....
I know that feeling
Randman: great input about quartersawn! Thank you!
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man I never use the step thru, push pull for me, if I cant push pull I don't need to shoot it
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Try to push/pull oevery single bow you brace. The step through puts crazy force on the center of the bow, hence your explosion. I dont think your grain is pitiful at all. Make it longer, wider and straight and you will get better results from ash.
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i wont be able to make it longer than 60 inches, but i can make it quite a bit wider and what do you mean by straiter?
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k, so i just bought some more explosion wood lol, i think its better in ring orientation, and about same in terms of grain. well see where this goes lol.
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Straight as in leave the heat out. No flipping or shaping. Let 56" of the 60" work. Notice how both limbs blew in almost the same spot? Thats a clue as to what happened. The fades where working to hard, mostly because you used up a bunch of limb by flipping them.
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Randman the bottom photo showing too plane against the grain, I was laways taught to go with the Grain, less chance of tear out, either by hand or using the jointer.
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Sounds like good advice from Pearly. Go back to the basics . You are trying some advanced techniques before you get the basics of grain figured out. Remember when I said quarter sawn can make it even harder to see the grain? What the illustration that randman doesn't show ,is that logs aren't parallel. They are tapered,and usually crooked. The first thing a saw mill does is makes it straight and parallel by cutting of the slabs . There goes your uncomprimised grain in almost all cases. Very few boards will be what you are looking for. Get yourself some scraps and split them. That's just about the best visual you could get. Scraps of various woods obvious grain lines might be best. A couple feet long should work. The other pic with the piece split off, showing which way to plane is a good example of how Oak can trick you if you don't know your grain.
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Bow 101 - Prime example of how the grain would fool you on this piece of Oak if you didn't look at the whole picture.Remember , grain runs like a bunch of straws ,not sheets of paper. (if that helps) It can be split radially ,tangentally or anywhere in between.
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Heck, just back the dang thing! >:D
Backing a board stave can prevent it from breaking. I use Jute fiber most of the time.
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Bow 101 - Prime example of how the grain would fool you on this piece of Oak if you didn't look at the whole picture.Remember , grain runs like a bunch of straws ,not sheets of paper. (if that helps) It can be split radially ,tangentally or anywhere in between.
Lol.........I agree, see at least I do agree on things, :P..... Oak can be a real teaser, Thats why lately I use Maple, a lot more forgiving.
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Heck, just back the dang thing! >:D
Backing a board stave can prevent it from breaking. I use Jute fiber most of the time.
a good board don't need any backing but air, just have to be picky when choosing a board
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Well, I aint picky!
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What's wrong with step through? I'ts never done anything bad to my bows.....
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With step through you twist the limbs every time you string it.
push pull or use a stringer is much better and safer
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Heck, just back the dang thing! >:D
Backing a board stave can prevent it from breaking. I use Jute fiber most of the time.
Id love to see some these jute backed bows with bad grain. Got pics to show us?
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i think even with jute it would break, i would imagine that rings dont mean as much, its the grain that still needs to be strait because those are the fibers of the bow.
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I noticed your ash was "curly ash" with a lot of figure in the wood. It has been my experience from working curly wood in flintlock stocks that the curly wood will have weak or softer spots between the curls. Figured wood would be great for lams to be sandwiched between fiberglass but a poor choice for a selfbow.
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Heck, just back the dang thing! >:D
Backing a board stave can prevent it from breaking. I use Jute fiber most of the time.
Id love to see some these jute backed bows with bad grain. Got pics to show us?
Heck yea i do. Now where on earth is my camera? I really need to find it. I have to upload slinging pics;)
backing it with cord is better.... as long as it is decent cord. Fiber looks really cool, but has to be bigger.
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Interesting you noticed that eric, thanks for letting me know. I may give it another shot and if it doesnt work ill just go for hickory handles anyway