Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Scallorn on April 23, 2013, 09:43:08 pm

Title: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: Scallorn on April 23, 2013, 09:43:08 pm
Found this mulberry sapling out in the woods close to my house. I'm waiting for the sap to be at it's maximum before I cut it. Is mulberry sapwood good for the back of the bow? I don't plan on chasing a ring on it, because I'm trying to keep it as "native american" as possible, and I don't believe they chased rings much. Also, there is loads of hickory and elm back there too  :)
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: twisted hickory on April 23, 2013, 10:08:57 pm
Pray some overzelous 10 yr old doesn't show up with a hatchet or the loggers come for "timber management". ;) I gotta black locust up the road that is 16 inches at the stump and from what I can tell is clear and no twist for the first 12 foot.
I bet all of us have at least one tree were drooling to get at with a draw knife ::)
Greg
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: Newindian on April 23, 2013, 10:10:10 pm
The only native american bows I know of with a violated back were sinew backed
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: twisted hickory on April 23, 2013, 10:13:42 pm
I think they did use osage and black locust. Not sure if they backed all of the bows or not.
Greg
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: blackhawk on April 23, 2013, 10:41:21 pm
Let it grow,and go cut some of that hickory and elm if you want sapwood backed na style bows....that mulberry needs to be left to grow for another 15+ years minimum,then it'll be ready....mulberry is best with a heartwood ring chased
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: Scallorn on April 23, 2013, 10:57:00 pm
Twisted Hickory, I am sure nobody is getting to this one before me! It's in one of those secret places that we all have, that nobody else knows about Haha!
Blackhawk, I don't know, I'm pretty tempted to cut this one. I thought it would make a good sapling bow. I have seen at least three powhatan bows from the 1600s in steve allely and jim hamm's encyclopedia, that I'm pretty sure would have been made from saplings.
I might be wrong though.
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: twisted hickory on April 23, 2013, 11:26:42 pm
Twisted Hickory, I am sure nobody is getting to this one before me! It's in one of those secret places that we all have, that nobody else knows about Haha!
Blackhawk, I don't know, I'm pretty tempted to cut this one. I thought it would make a good sapling bow. I have seen at least three powhatan bows from the 1600s in steve allely and jim hamm's encyclopedia, that I'm pretty sure would have been made from saplings.
I might be wrong though.
I am planning on cutting my locust tree as soon as nursing classes are done. I bet there is at least 3 nice staves knot free in it. I hope my locust is safe as well! Only my saw will violate the growth rings! LOL.
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: Joec123able on April 23, 2013, 11:34:12 pm
If I was planning on cutting that tree I'd cut it as soon as possible so you don't have to wait as long to let it dry
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: Scallorn on April 23, 2013, 11:40:09 pm
Joe, I would cut it now, but I want to wait for the sap to be up. When the sap is up, the bark will peel off really easily.
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: Pat B on April 23, 2013, 11:51:33 pm
If the tree has leafed out I would cut it now. the bark should peel right off. Last years growth ring has had all winter to mature. If you wait til August you will be working with a brand new, immature ring. What diameter is the mulberry tree? If 2" or less I would peel the bark, seal the whole pole and cut out the belly side of the limbs and bind it to a form until it dries. If 3" or more, strip the bark, seal and band saw it in half lengthwise then bind the two halves back together, belly to belly, with spacers between the 2 halves. By August they should be ready to build bows.
   I have made successful bows with mulberry that were all heartwood, 50/50heart/sap and with a  few rings of sapwood left on. They all worked well but the more sapwood the thicker the limbs will be. The best bow will be all heartwood.
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: Badly Bent on April 23, 2013, 11:54:00 pm
Scallorn, I just finished a sapwood backed mulberry eastern woodland style bow. First time leaving sapwood on mulberry for me but
it turned out real nice, My stave was a 15 year seasoned piece and from a larger diameter tree. Also I chased sapwood down to the
last ring above the heartwood. I think its a nice look, kinda like yew with the contrast of sap/heart on back/belly. At least on mine
I don't think the one thin ring of sapwood affected the bows performance or durability. I'd try it again when I have more mulberry.
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: Youngboyer2(billyf) on April 24, 2013, 12:27:06 am
I bet all of us have at least one tree were drooling to get at with a draw knife ::)
Greg

I know I have one I can't get off my mind! That's just too true
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: Scallorn on April 24, 2013, 01:16:11 am
Thanks for the advise pat b. I will definitely be cutting it soon then, the leaves are just now reaching full size.
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: Joec123able on April 24, 2013, 02:57:13 am
Where do you live ??! Here in Iowa none of the trees have leaves yet
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: rossfactor on April 24, 2013, 03:27:26 am
I bet that if you use the outer ring as the back of the bow, you will get little to no heartwood in that size stave.

I love sapling bows.  More than half of my bows are sapling bows. But when you're working with narrow diamter saplings, its best with woods whose sapwood alone is good for bow making (hickory, oak, plum and other friutwoods, HHB, buckthorn, cascara, etc). 

Woods whose sapwood (alone) is poorer for bowmaking (e.g. Osage, Locust, Cedar, Juniper etc), are better from staves with a large enough dimater to support a good amount of sapwood.

I could be totally wrong, but if that mulberry tree is 4-5 inches in diameter, I'm betting you only get 2" of heartwood max.  Without chasing a ring,(e.g. just using the outer ring as the back of the bow) you will only have heartwood in your handle, and little to none in your limbs.

Still may make a nice bow, but I think Blackhawks advice is sound. 

Gabe
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: mikekeswick on April 24, 2013, 04:08:26 am
I bet that if you use the outer ring as the back of the bow, you will get little to no heartwood in that size stave.

I love sapling bows.  More than half of my bows are sapling bows. But when you're working with narrow diamter saplings, its best with woods whose sapwood alone is good for bow making (hickory, oak, plum and other friutwoods, HHB, buckthorn, cascara, etc). 

Woods whose sapwood (alone) is poorer for bowmaking (e.g. Osage, Locust, Cedar, Juniper etc), are better from staves with a large enough dimater to support a good amount of sapwood.

I could be totally wrong, but if that mulberry tree is 4-5 inches in diameter, I'm betting you only get 2" of heartwood max.  Without chasing a ring,(e.g. just using the outer ring as the back of the bow) you will only have heartwood in your handle, and little to none in your limbs.

Still may make a nice bow, but I think Blackhawks advice is sound. 

Gabe

+1
All the mulberry i've seen had really thick sapwood. I'd leave it and go cut some elm. Elm is one of the best bow woods there is when heat treated.
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: sleek on April 24, 2013, 04:40:55 am
Shoot, I would cut elm, mulbery and the hickory! In my experience, sapwood on the back does just fine on mulberry. However, it is very spongy feeling, hard to get a smooth finish on, and I dont like the way it works or feels. Its up to you on how you wanna make it, either way makes a bow. Is it the red or the white?
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: Scallorn on April 24, 2013, 12:13:20 pm
Man, I'm really second guessing it now lol. I think I might leave it. Joe, I live in northeast Texas, close to Dallas, all the trees here are leafed out. Rossfactor, I hear ya there! I have always known hickory, elm, and ash, made the best sapling bows, luckily I have a hickory sapling right next to that mulberry that I might cut instead. Sleek, it is Red Mulberry, that's the only kind growing here.
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: Pappy on April 24, 2013, 12:41:02 pm
I'm with blackhawk and Mike on this one,let it grow and cut a Hickory or Elm. :) or you could build a backwards bow,split down the middle and make the belly the back,no need to chase a ring ,it's like decrowning one. I think that will work on Mullleberry,I know it will with Osage. ;) :) You will likly wind up with sap wood in the handle.
   Pappy
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: Onebowonder on April 24, 2013, 01:25:32 pm
<snip> or you could build a backwards bow,split down the middle and make the belly the back,no need to chase a ring ,it's like decrowning one. I think that will work on Mullleberry<snip>
+1 for the backwards bow idea.  I have seen a bow like this done with Mulberry, ...AND, (assuming the archeologists and currators got it right), it was a technique used by Native Americans long ago.  I've got a piece of Osage I'm hoping to do this with...

OneBow
Title: Re: Can't wait 'till August!
Post by: Scallorn on April 24, 2013, 02:23:26 pm
Well I decided to go ahead and leave that one alone. Better to have patients than to have a second rate bow. Thanks for the advise  :)