Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Caveman_Sam on May 09, 2013, 07:18:48 pm
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I recently split a 6'4 9/10" diameter Ash log into 4 quarters. They're pretty big, and I could probably get them smaller with some more experience to draw on. Although the grain runs very straight i'm scared of taking them down any further.
I was feeling like making only 4 bows out of these 4 rather massive quarters was a waste, but having just learnt about early and late growth from vol1 of the bowyers bible I realise that the middle rings of this quarter would make the best bow. Due to the high ratio of late growth to early growth in this section of the (rather massive) Stave.
In an earlier thread i was told to strip bark and use the first layer of wood as the back of the bow, however there are 5 or 6 rather (3/4 to 1.5") large and raised scars of knots on the back from where the tree had branches removed (assumedly numerous times) These knotty scars have visibly exposed ridges of rings in their own right and I don't have the experience to know how to tackle them. (i recently tried to 'limb' a piece of practice wood and took the root of the branch (assumedly the knot) out with the branch.
Taking off three of four layers of rings from above and below the target area high in late growth seems to be a good solution, offering the best composition of bow wood and avoiding my knot problem.
Advice gratefully received cheers fellas!
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Can you post pictures of the problem areas? Jawge
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Back it :P
If you are careful on the knots, would it work? Someone more expecianced please comment.
IMO, if you leave the entire grain of the wood intact, so that it is undamaged, since the wood grain flows around the knots(probably) it should work. Now if you work the back down a few layers, you may find that those knots go pretty deep...
I have done this with an elm stave, but the knots were smaller, evenly spaced, and elm is much stronger in tension.
I don't have a lot of experiance with ash. Locust and Elm are what I use for log staves, RO for boards.
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Ash splits easy
Split off the top down to were you want to be !
Use thin wedges for thin splits so you don't pry it so hard that you break it out !
Have fun !
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i see no problem with your plan, but don't assume there are no knots in the layer you choose- the tree had limbs back then too. good luck!
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My thoughts too, Aaron. You don't know what on the next ring until you expose it.
Pics will help us help you.
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Hey hey not sure how to upload photos in imbed them in a post. Uploaded photos to photo bucket..
I hope this helps.
http://s1328.photobucket.com/user/Caveman_Sam/library/?sort=3&page=1
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use the IMG link next time. it will embed it.
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using a machette or ax and a hammer. Cut a guide line down the middle of the stave. Make it about a 1/4" deep then split as normal. I've found that the split will follow the line of weakness...most of the time. Good luck!
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As for the knots.....try working around the knot on one of the staves maybe the worst just to get some practice might as well lesrn how to tackle a knot sooner than later, imho >:D
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Ok so the bowyers bible is telling me to go down to the layers with more late growth. In a previous post I was advised to make the first layer of wood the back of the bow. Does your opinion change seeing now that the rings are better in the middle of the stave?
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Just take the bark and cambium off and use the outer ring forthe back. There is nothing wrong with those outer rings and little point in chasing. The reason people suggest using the untouched outer ring for the back is because it gives you unbroken fibers from end to end. Where the knots are just be careful and go slowly.
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Nothing wrong with those outer rings. Don't overcomplicate things. Remove the bark carefully as to not damage the wood underneath, and there's the back of the bow!
Those knots appear pretty small. Most will be bark bulges. Furthermore, such knots will run from the pith of the tree all the way to the outside. You can't remove them by ring chasing a few rings down. Just deal with them by leaving the bow lay out slightly wider at that point. Remove the entire bark first, and see what wood you're left with.
(http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w539/Caveman_Sam/CAM00383copy_zpsbcb417c5.jpg)
(http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w539/Caveman_Sam/CAM00379_zps2b165bb0.jpg)
(http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w539/Caveman_Sam/CAM00374_zpsd88bd639.jpg)
(http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w539/Caveman_Sam/CAM00369_zps57102598.jpg)
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Where ive scraped off the cambium I think I might have damaged the first layer a bit.. :/ ive got varying degrees of roughness (very small chunks taken out of it I guess..) will this be ok if I sand it?
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In none of the pictures you've shown, you've scraped away all the bark. I can see where you scraped some bark off, but the majority of the bark is still there. None of the cambium (a very thin layer between the outer bark and the wood) is showing yet. You just didn't scrape through the entire thickness of the bark yet. Did you remove more bark since posting those pics? If so, please post a pic of the area where you think you damaged the first layer a bit.
IF (but I doubt it) you indeed damaged the first layer of wood underneath the bark, that does not necessarily pose a problem. You can indeed sand that nicked area, as long as you stay within that one ring. If you sand through one ring, exposing the next ring underneath it, you might need to chase one ring down the entire stave. But perhaps that nicked area is near the edge of the stave that will fall off once the stave is brought down to final width layout?
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ok so the beige layer I've exposed here (and scraped up quite a lot..) is still the bark?
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Yes.
Jawge
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Hello all! Status report.
Ive cleaned most of the bark off 2 quarter staves.
The final layer of bark is beige and I can see the white wood in some places. My question is this. How am I supposed to cut off the bark without touching the white layer of wood underneath? Am I allowed to touch it a bare minimum to remove all the bark? Is it a case of keeping it in the same ring then ill be ok? Or if I violate any of the fibres of the first ring then i'm screwed?
Also Ive just straight up avoided the knotts. Id like some advice on how to tackle them.
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When did you cut the wood? The bark should peel on its own if it was cut recently. You need to learn how to remove bark without nicking rings if you want to eliminate the risks of violating a ring. I think you are misunderstanding where knots originate from. They come from the pith so working down rings will totally expose them rather than eliminate them.
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Darksoul answered your last questions above.
A cabinet scraper will remove the rest of the cambium. Get a good one and learn how to sharpen it properly.
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So i leave the knots standing tall and gnarly on the back of the bow?
It was cut in feb.. I had some misinformation and left it as a log for a while. I cant tell how you peel it off, mine is sticky as hell.
Is violating a ring.. 1 gouging all the way threw it and cutting into the ring below or 2 cutting partially into the ring.. say 50% of the way threw. or 3 cutting any amount into it no matter how fine. Ive been working with the notion of 3.. but I don't see how its possible to remove all the bark and expose the upper layer of wood without cutting into it a hairs breadth at least some of the time.. even if i take it down to the last brown/beige layer + sand it then ill still go into it to expose it. Very confused. (p.s Im a complete beginner)
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It's easy to get frightened by the notion of "violating a ring" - even the term is pretty scary. Keep everything simple and you'll enjoy this far more!
One of the issues with being a beginner (at least this is what I'm finding) is that unless you've handled, shot and inspected lots of good (and bad) quality bows, it's really hard to visualise what the books (and forum members!) are telling you. When I made my first bow, I'd never even shot one before, let alone handled a well-made self bow. I was completely in the dark, so everything seemed far more dramatic than it needed to be.
What looks like a "ring violation" to you is probably absolutely nothing, while something you might miss would be a major red flag to an experienced bowyer. If you remove the bark and cambium with a scraper or edge of a knife carefully, I can't imagine you'd ever cause enough of a problem to break a bow. If you go at it with a hatchet, and dig all the way into a growth ring right in a very stressed area of the bow, you MAY encounter problems.
Have you seen any of the bows on here with gigantic holes going all the way through a limb? Handled with care, a bow can take a lot. If you DO "violate" a growth ring completely, either go down to the next ring and start again, or leave that particular area of the bow slightly wider to accommodate for the issue. Same with knots.
At this stage, you need to get some bows under your belt so that you can understand first hand what certain issues result in. Crack on with what you're making, and if there are some funky bits, or you dig a bit too deep somewhere, either it will explode there and you'll know "that was too deep - more care next time" or you'll know "well it didn't break. Obviously I didn't go far enough to cause a problem." Either way, you've learned something new about bow building that you can use next time.
But I realise none of that is what you asked haha ;D
Ring "violation" is going THROUGH a ring into the next one. Most of the time the single back ring will be all sorts of thicknesses due to the bowyer not knowing how deep he's going the whole time. Remember also that when your bow is finished, and tillered, you'll need to sand it all over both before and during applying a finish. That will change the thickness of the growth ring as well. Plus different woods can take different amounts of violation. Yew for instance is essentially bullet proof when it comes to ring violations. There's no need to keep a single one all the way along, unless you're talking about something with a draw weight of 100# or so. I've found that ash can take a surprising amount of violation to it's back rings before it gives up. And even then, a bit of superglue and some binding can save you on a good day!
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Awesome reply as ever cheers WillS "even the term is scary" lol
How should I deal with the knots? Just get the bark off and leave them proud? Bowyers bible says to file them.. but surely this will just expose more of them?
Really my objective with these is to get the bark off and leave them for a year to season. Gonna try to make a hazel bow + boards n stuff.
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Just get the bark off and leave them proud?
Yes.
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Knots need to be handled in various ways, depending on their type and size, and position of them within the bow layout.
I found this quite helpful when learning how to handle knots
http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/6214/Pin-Knot-Tutorial-Attempt-for-Osage-and-BL#.UZPWdehwbRY
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How should I deal with the knots? Just get the bark off and leave them proud? Bowyers bible says to file them.. but surely this will just expose more of them?
This can't be what the Traditional Bowyers Bible says. Pleas read that chapter/paragraph carefully again and try to understand what is being written. By now, you'll understand more of the terminology.
I don't say this too often to bowyers, but you are too cautious. Not trying to brag, but debarking such a stave should take an experienced bowyer no more than 30 minutes. A beginner maybe two hours. I think you're just working too diligently with this one, probably not with the correct tool. Take a sharp card scraper or even paint scraper, and apply HARD pressure. The tool will hog off the relatively soft bark and leave the hard wood unharmed. A sharp blade such as a (draw)knife will easily nick the wood underneath the bark - not good! Also remove all bark around knots. The wood will and should form a bulge, which is visible when you've removed the bark. Be careful around knots, as the wood is more erratic, but still remove all bark without touching the wood.
There is no need to set the stave aside for one year to let the wood dry. If you remove the bulk of excess wood, it will dry much faster. If you put the wood indoors, it can dry within a month, once it is reduced in thickness. Of course you can practice on (dry) boards in the meantime.
Once the bark is removed, establish a center line and draw the width outline of the bow onto the back of the bow. Then cut the stave to width. Than draw the thickness profile on both sides and cut the stave to thickness. Clean up the corners and sides and start tillering, haha! :D In a nutshell basically, of course.
If you can continue posting pictures, you make it much easier for us to help you. We always crave for pics on this forum ;) We can catch things you might otherwise miss.