Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: Wolf Watcher on June 30, 2013, 02:09:35 pm
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Guess I need to back out of the PA web site as all these new experts with their bias really makes me upset. I started beating up on rocks in the 50s when no outside information was available. Since that time I have gone through many phases of making points and blades. No one on here has reinvented the wheel. Crafty is the only one that has developed a technique that the real stone masons did not use. Seems when someone becomes proficient at a style or technique then he thinks the rest of us should emulate his methods and beliefs. I am maybe wrong, but I feel the techniques, tools, and materials one uses is his own choice and having someone saying he should become whatever an ABO knapper like himself is out of line and causes disharmony on the PA site. So rather than be the only one who seems to take offense at the remarks about copper I am dropping out. There are some very talented young knappers that I praise and we all know who they are. They have my respect. The hardest thing about what I am doing here is not having to get up at 3:30 AM on Mondays to see and read about Pappy's Good Life. I plan to try to make the items I promised at the Classic this year so if you want to keep in touch my email address is: jeyork@tctwest.net. A/Ho Udos Joe
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I understand, Wolf. However don't let it get to you, just ignore their comments. Stick around Bro.
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I look at all the comments as opinions, and take them as such, no one should direct flaming arrows at anyone, cause sooner or later, arrows get flung back, also i personally havent noticed anyone pushing their viewpoint as better , just different.
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I just do not read the posts from people that bother me. Pick and choose what you want to read.
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Could you post links to the threads that you're talking about? I have not once seen anyone on here seriously say that their method of knapping or doing anything is better than someone else's. Only thing I can think of is that dude that made a shirt about why ABO knapping is better but he did that just to rag on his buddies that use copper. He himself used copper for a long time. I guarantee you it was not posted to make other people feel the way you feel.
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There are always some people that think there way is the best and only way to do things. Screw'em >:( There is more than one way to skin a cat. If you want to break rock with copper than go right ahead. Stick around Joe. I always enjoy reading your posts about the beautiful scenery and wildlife at your ranch.
And in my opinion nobody is pure ABO. I don't think natives wore prescription glasses, used artificial lighting, or gathered knapping rocks in automobiles or by mail. I don't think they used power or hand saws to cut out billets and boppers from antler either.
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i am with Clint on this.screw that guy.Joe,please don't leave because of on person.there is way more people that want you here.
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yeah don't let anyone mess with you, heck 99% of my points are all slabs
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Stick around Sir, as the old saying goes, opinions are like, well you know, and they all stink, except mine. ;) :P Or as the Latin phrase so deftly expresses,
"Non illegetimus, non carborundum est." Don't let the B------s wear you down!
Stick around, I don't know your age, but my hide has gotten a lot thicker as I have aged, every now and then, I can feel something hit my skin, but it doesn't penetrate . ;) Everyone has a right to their own opinion. Be that opinion right or wrong. It just depends from what angle you look at it, in some respects, and in some it is just plain wrong. Be that as it may, it is still an opinion. Some may feel an opinion so strongly, that it is put forth as the only correct manner in which something is done, or practiced. An opinion is just a personal theory.
Stick around, you've too much to offer, to leave over such things as someone else's opinions.
Wayne
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Thanks, Wayne, great advice before this Thread gets carried away.
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Whoa! Don't back out Joe! Please! I think there is a huge misunderstanding here. You didn't name any names Joe, but I'm fairly certain that I know what you are referring too. I can guarantee that he is not speaking from arrogance and trying to say do it my way or don't do it. He is only trying to show folks like me his discoveries with ABO techniques. Sure, there's some needling going on, but i know for certain that it is done completely for humor. If it would have been known that folks were going to feel genuine animosity over the subject, it would not have been done in such a way. I know this, because I talk with the fellow quite regularly and he has nothing but the highest respect for you guys as do I. I had a part in some of the comments made, and i assure you it was done for fun and nothing else. For my part, if I caused offense, I sincerely apologize. It was most definitely not intended to do so. Please do not leave the sight Joe. You are one of the most respected folks on here. I know for a fact that the guy you're talking about has the highest respect for you Sir. Once again, I apologize for any offense i played a part in. I had no idea people would take it as anything but good natured fun. Josh
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I think some people on here like to refute the "fact" that copper beats antler.
IMO who cares what you use, just make the dang point.
I use a steel file(and know its not the best, its probably near the worst)
I don't think the people who you are talking about meant to say their methods were better. they were just refuting things other people have said.
Please stay... I doubt I am the only one who will miss you.
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I hear ya Joe and hope you will reconceder,I hear it all the time with my bow building/try it this way or you should do it this way, ::) I just let it roll off and go on with the way I learned, I call them the young guns and sometimes it does bother me,but mostly just let it roll,you do it your way and I will keep doing it mine. ;) Like has been said as far as I can tell you are one of the most respected folks on here,at least that is how I feel. I get cranky also,please reconceder. :) :)
Pappy
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I too hope you reconsider, Joe. Your absence would be a loss for the PA site. We enjoy your posts, wisdom and contributions.
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Hey Mo-Coon, I too am old and get the same feeling you do, come by it honest too. But if the old farts don't keep hangin out then there aint gonna be no voice in the wilderness, eh? Ya can allways stick and check things out and help out the fellas ya can.
Think maybe, the problem is all this "cyber" stuff, don't think it's too cool either. I'm old enough to think a man's word should be good, cause it's all ya really got. Also don't say things hidin behind a key-board ya wouldn't say to their face.
Anyways, hope ya stick around, just one old guy's thought, the site will be better for it.
rich
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Same kinda' stuff with bow making, I use a band saw, belt sander, chain saw and even a tractor to load my wood. There will always be some guy who professes that cutting trees with a handsaw, carrying staves miles out of a swamp on their shoulders and completing a bow with only a hatchet and pocket knife is the only way to properly make a bow. I take comments like that with a grain of salt because I realize that they take as much pride in the bows they produce as I do mine. We just arrive at the same place buy taking a different route.
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Well i am the guy your talking about. I will leave and delete all past post and not return.
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Come on guys,we don't want or need to loose any of you over this. :)
Pappy
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John, I don't think that's the answer because you contribute a lot of informative posts. Joe that would be a shame to see you not participate with all your experience and knowledge in life. We are going to disagree from post to post . We all develop preferences for certain individuals comments and advice. Skim and sort past the rest ;)
Tracy
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This is all in fun, guys. We all do things a bit differently and no one is right and no one wrong...just different. If you don't like what someone writes, just don't read it and if you cant say something nice about someone then don't say anything at all.
We have all contributed to make this the best site on line and don't need anyone to leave just because of bad blood. We do need all the positive input to keep coming.
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Dang guys, all this ragequitting is getting depressing, im a member of another forum not even related to this one,its chock full of people who think they are wise beyond their years, i expect hurt feelings and childishness from their like and ilk, but i thought we were men here, talking about MEN stuff, let alternate opinions be what they are ,"alternate opinions" , the wealth of knowledge you both bring to this site is needed for for jugheads like me, so just agree to disagree, stand your ground, and give up all this ragequit stuff and hurt feelings, ARE WE NOT MEN,,,LOL,,,in all seriousness,, stop with this and lets move on . Im a 47 yr old newbie to bowmaking knapping arrow stuff, I NEED YOUR KNOWLEDGE,,BOTH OF YALL!!!
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With few exceptions, I count the folks on this site as friend. When I meet you at an event, I am extremely pleased to know I can walk up to you and feel at home and around old friends. That spirit of camaraderie has been nurtured for years by many folks to get it where it is today, and I sure dont take it for granted. I try to do my part, not because I'm anything special, but because there are folks behind me that would like to take part in this community just as I do.
It is important (and I need to remind myself of this from time to time) that I remember from where I came and stay within myself. I ain't much, I see that more and more as the days go by. Sometimes the good Lord has me be a positive influence on those around me and other days I just sit and watch the world go by. I try hard to not offend, but I still enjoy sarcasm (my wife would say "too much!") if I have spoke out of turn, then I apologize. If I have been sarcastic and caused an insult to happen, that wasnt my intention and again please forgive me.
I would like to echo the words that have already been said... Joe and John I value your friendship... Please reconsider.
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Well, it looks like Iowabow followed through and has deleted his account here :(. Not sure what to say about it. Very unfortunate that it came to this :(
Tracy
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Well....I gotta say that I'm not surprised. John's a man of his word. He was just trying to share what he was learning as he learned it with guys like me that were interested in the techniques. He wasn't knocking copper except in tongue and cheek. He was simply trying to promote an alternative. And what happened ...... he got kicked right square in the bag for his efforts! If that wasn't bad enough, he got dog piled by people who don't even knap. Have you ever tried to pet a dog just to have him bite your hand? I would imagine that's pretty close to what John's feeling right now. And it was ALL unnecessary. Josh
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Huh???????.....what the flip????? ??? ??? ??? Seriously people?????????? The one thing in common all the guys have who have been here and on the forums for a good while is thick skin....I've been called words by folks I can't retype,and almost every name in the book and it was not in jest...yeah it can be upsetting,but ya just realize folks like that have some "personal" issues and low maturity levels...these days I really don't care what some other persons opinion is..even if they think I'm an idiot or a jerk,and my bows are the ugliest sticks they've ever seen,cus the only opinion that matters to me is my own....
What a shame..and what a loss... ???
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I just dont get it :o
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I know just where your comeing from. When I started building self bows, Knaping and everything else invioled primitive archery, liveing. Back when there was no internet you could'nt walk in WALLMART and pick up a half dozzen mags. to learn from.
And you did the things you did because you enjoyed doing it and liveing like you want to. Ive said it to myself and my sons and anyone that would listen, dozzens of times. Boy I wish I'd had the internet back then. I like you have learned most things by tile and error. Heck I buit my first bow from a boy scout manal. SO YOU WANT TO BUILD INDAIN BOW (1958) I thought all selfbows had to be sinewed. I did my first 2 bows from BL fence post from a framed I bow hunted on. And sinewed the first 2. NOT A GOOD WAY TO START OUT.
Right away when I read someones post I can uselly tell how far he's down the trail he's traveled.
What I mean is I can tell old times.
No reason to give up, look mosty people read my posts and think I'm a know it all. Just how I come across. I KNOW WHAT I KNOW BECAUSE I GREW UP BEING TAUGHT THAT YOU LEARN OR DO 1 THING A DAY. I trived to do this my whole life. And have moved it to my sons. I still do this to day.
If someone dos'nt agree so what I know from doing or learning it some way.That I''VE BEEN THERE DONE THAT ALOT IN MOST CASES. I'm not going to roll over and quit learning because someone dose it differntly, Mosty jeliousy comeS out on their part and the only way they can justfly is to attacte you with their key board.
You said yourself everything has already been done so no ones done anything that has'nt been done in primitive liveing and archery. So do as I do I kick back SLOW DOWN ENJOY how far down the path you've came. Your not at the end of the trail unless you chose to be. It's totally up to you at this point.
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Wow! A man takes some time away from PA to drink and chase women and all hell breaks loose. The one thing that puts this forum above all others was, the Brotherhood bond that was shared with guys some of us have and will never meet. This is crazy!!! Guys whatever your into be it Bow building, Knapping, arrow making, Etc.... Do it your way if I don't like it that's my problem. If you don't like how I do it that is your problem but either way just have fun. If I bother you, Do not read my posts. I will in return do the same, If you offend me( you can't) I will refrain from following your future postings. No need for all this quitting and fighting. Dammit guys calm down.
As for Iowabow I really enjoyed his info, If anyone has a way to contact him outside this forum( Email, Etc) I would appreciate it if he wouldn't mind.
Matt
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I think all offended parties on both sides just need a breather. Take a break from the keyboard and the monitor, chip some rocks, make some shavings, heck maybe even go turn a stump into a pincushion. Cool your jets, then come back with fresh eyes, fresh egos, and fresh ideas.
Sometimes we need to remember that for all the good message boards are, a keyboard can not convey tone of voice. This means that there will be misunderstandings and miscommunications because somebody reads something with a different tone than somebody typed it with. Simple statements come off arrogant, humor falls flat, a polite argument sounds harsh and judgmental. Maybe this is what has happened here.
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This whole thing reminds me of that time i accidently "broke up" with my girlfriend with a text message.
I know what i said, I know how I meant it, but she read it with a completely different voice and context, and the only thing between me and an empty house was my genius act of calling her.
This is the internet. Don't read between the lines, because there's nothing there.
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I think all offended parties on both sides just need a breather. Take a break from the keyboard and the monitor, chip some rocks, make some shavings, heck maybe even go turn a stump into a pincushion. Cool your jets, then come back with fresh eyes, fresh egos, and fresh ideas.
Sometimes we need to remember that for all the good message boards are, a keyboard can not convey tone of voice. This means that there will be misunderstandings and miscommunications because somebody reads something with a different tone than somebody typed it with. Simple statements come off arrogant, humor falls flat, a polite argument sounds harsh and judgmental. Maybe this is what has happened here.
+1
The English Language conveys more info through unspoken communication than through spoken/typed communication.
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can't we all just get along.i came to this site for the people,best on earth.i have to deal with idiots everyday.it is really refreshing to come home from work and log on to pa.it is sort of my therapy to talk to like minded people that have the same values that i have.i know both guys involved in this argument.you both are good upstanding gentelmen.i really don't understand all this.we need to have our opinions,but undrstand that others don't feel the same way.this is what makes us different and we learn new things from others.i told Pappy once,if we were all the same it would be pretty boring.please reconsider guys,we want you to stay.that is all i got to say except that you all are great and i am glad i met ya.
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If this wasn't so sad it be plain, silly. Geeez, guys. :-\ ???
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Come on Joe, we love Ya man, hang in here with me bro. From one ole Paratrooper to another, stand in the door one more time with me. The green light is on.
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I am probably the only person here that has been put up as a guest in both your homes. This is a minor misunderstanding that has been fostered by a lack of nonverbal communication. There is no reason for hurt feelings.
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I'm deeply saddened by the direction this has gone.
I've been making bows since the first issue of Primitive Archer magazine; since before the internet. Yet for the very same reasons as what has happened I'm very hesitant in responding to requests for help, to post suggestions on what works for me. It is all too easy for typed words to be misconstrued... for then second, third and fourth opinions to turn into negative debate and hurt feelings.
We love you both here, and wish you'd reconsider
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Well said Matt. :)
Pappy
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Sadly, it was the dogpile that made everything blow out of proportion. Bad enough one person misunderstood/misinterpreted the issue, but then ... well, just re-read the first page or two and think about it.
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Crap , i gotta reread, cause I sure hope i wasnt in that dogpile, Iowabow was helping me get my ABO on. I need him. Someone PM me that mans e-mail,, pronto!
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4dog- he moved over too a friendlier atmosphere for ABO. You can find him on paleoplanet in the ABO knapping section under the user name JohnBybee. He was helping a lot of us here and I'm sure that once he gets more familiar with that sight, he will be more than happy to continue helping us along. I'm planning on setting up over there as well. Josh
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Cool thanks , im a member there guess my handle,,, lol
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I have found paleoplanet to be friendly, and open. Much like PA.
However, its hard to navigate compared to PA, and the forum is bigger.
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I'm pretty new here.
so I got no dog in this.
but I come here to read, watch, learn and contribute as much as I can.
I'm only a member here and one other forum.
but I've seen a bunch of other forums go to hell in a hand basket
I'm praying that it doesn't happen here over a miscommunication
or the typed word maybe takin out of context
Kevin
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Sadly, it was the dogpile that made everything blow out of proportion. Bad enough one person misunderstood/misinterpreted the issue, but then ... well, just re-read the first page or two and think about it.
JW, I tried to warn everyone about the dogpile but,, I guess a few had to step in it.
paleo planet is a good site but it got too big and cumberson for me. I started out there as a Mod when it first started up, still go there occasionally.
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I have it on good confidence that the problem is resolved. They chose to work it out over the phone instead of online.
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Glad to hear it, Scott.
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Great, hope they both come back.
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Good glad to hear that,life is too short,and i got too much to leatn ,and im starting this stuff too late. 8)
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That's the best news I heard all week! Josh
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I talked to Joe on the phone today and we said sorry to each other and meant it!
I want you folks to know that I deleted my post out of respect for Joe and left this site out of respect for his place in this community. He has been around a long time and has earned it.
It was not my intent to offend Joe. However my multi post of ABO poking fun at some of my friends was rightly misunderstood by some people. Many of you did not see the video I made making fun of ME with my second to my last post.
In composing my post and I would call other PA members to make sure the stuff was not offensive. I would say "is this funny or will it be taking the wrong way" However a person only viewing 1 or 2 of the post could easily take offence to the content out of context.
The lesson I have learned is other people will not be seeing all of the dialogue. My approach was wrong and turned people off and that was not my goal.
My goal was to help others learn to do ABO and explain how it can be easy.
I was only poking fun at my buddies that knap with copper.
I love copper knappin if you knap with copper great!
If you want help with ABO just let me know would be glad to help you.
I was very upset with those who jumped in and appeared to bash me but I have come to understand that it was more about your act to support your buddy and I can respect that. If you know me then you know I am not a hateful person.
We (Joe and I) want to be an example to this community of how two good guys can talk things out and be friends in the end. When I meet Joe at the classic I though he was a cool guy and have a lot of respect for him calling and talking through this issue.
Then we talked about elk hunting...end of story.
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Outstanding! Hats off to both of you. Things sure can be misunderstood in tweets, posts, texts, etc... I have enjoyed both of y'all's posts in the past and would have been sad to see you go. Good deal. :)
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Great news ,made my day John, :) :) I think the world of both you guys. I am So glad yall got it worked out. :) Hope you both will reconcider and come on back. :) Miss yall already. :) :)
Pappy
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Glad you both worked it out like real men :)
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So glad to hear this !
Good way to start my morning !
Hope to see ya both at the Classic next spring !
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^5 to both of you fine men..
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I would like to apologize for my comment. I had the same misunderstanding about your copper posts as Joe did. I was upset over the fact that he was leaving because of it. I'm glad that you guys worked it out and I'm thankful that you have returned to PA.
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Good news John!
I still don't/didn't see the "dogpile", just mass misunderstanding , but it's a mute point now :)
Point of the month is a turkey tail >:D
Glad your back!
Tracy
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One thing I have found in countless postings is the varying degrees of reading comprehension among members.
I may post "first you cut a tree" and have someone respond" I don't get it, what do you mean by gutting a tree". This is an extreme example made up by me to make a point but sometimes we express things that make perfect sense to us but are misconstrued by the readers.
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One thing I have found in countless postings is the varying degrees of reading comprehension among members.
I may post "first you cut a tree" and have someone respond" I don't get it, what do you mean by gutting a tree". This is an extreme example made up by me to make a point but sometimes we express things that make perfect sense to us but are misconstrued by the readers.
So wut u sayen is I'm a dum illitrrate rednek? :laugh:
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Shew...Now that was a long post to read all at once. Joe, I met ya and I loved it, one of my favorite memories of this years Classic is my time spent talking with you. I hope you stay around here. You'll be strongly missed if not.
John, well, you know what I think of you. ::) We're part of the same tribe. THE ROCK PAINTERS!:::. Glad you're back Brother. I still use copper cuz I'm still tryin to learn to do it that way. Maybe more ABO some day.
Wow...this post has kinda strssed me out. If it wern't so early I'd have to grab a PBR right now.
Hope to see more posts and replys from both of you in the future. Love ya guys, dpgratz
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Yup, Blackhawk.. :) ;)
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I would like to apologize for my comment. I had the same misunderstanding about your copper posts as Joe did. I was upset over the fact that he was leaving because of it. I'm glad that you guys worked it out and I'm thankful that you have returned to PA.
You honored him by standing by his side I respect that. You are a true and loyal friend to him and did not want to see trouble on PA. You guys are good examples for young men that need to see good role models. Both of you have touched many peoples lives in positive ways. You both stood up for what you thought was right at that time. The way I presented the many post made it hard for people like you to get it right away. No harm done we are good. Thank you for the kind trade you made Isaac last year at the classic that was an example of who you are more than any thing.
I did hurt my feelings for a day (my mom hugged to much as a kid) and your post is appreciated, thank you.
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i am with Clint on this one.i didn't even know who Joe had a problem with.i thought someone was really messing with him.i am so glad you fellas talked and worked things out.i was bummed thinking that we was loosing two great members.thank you guys for patching things up.it just shows what kind of people that we have here.
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Then we talked about elk hunting...end of story.
It had to come to that end, of course. All John has on his mind these days is this trip to Colorado to hunt elk. He is becoming an insufferable bore on the subject. You could be discussing smartphone options and he will turn it around to elk hunting. Poor guy has it and has it bad.
John, we need to have an intervention. We all love you, but you are fast becoming an elkaholic. ;D
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Then we talked about elk hunting...end of story.
It had to come to that end, of course. All John has on his mind these days is this trip to Colorado to hunt elk. He is becoming an insufferable bore on the subject. You could be discussing smartphone options and he will turn it around to elk hunting. Poor guy has it and has it bad.
John, we need to have an intervention. We all love you, but you are fast becoming an elkaholic. ;D
WHY ARE YOU NOT WRITING FOR TV.....you are so good at setting up for a punch line lol
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Whew, great news! I feel better now. :)
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Now that I think about this, Pearl Drums is getting old and cranky too... :) ;)
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Uh guys glad your back,now Iowa, now kindly REPOST ALL YOU HAD REMOVED!!!!!!! Lol
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Glad to see an open gate was installed in the fence. :D We don't need to lose anyone, especially due to miscommunication.! I enjoy the articles from each of you. I am glad the fence was mended. As for being an Elkaholic..... rest assured that J.W. knows of which he speaks. As the old saying goes, takes one to know one. ;) ;D Once you hear an Elk bugle, it is pretty much over as to not being addicted to Elk hunting. Especially when it is near you! Thrilling and somewhat scary at the same time! Just imagine how our prehistoric ancestors in Europe felt, hunting those giant stags, with nine foot wide antlers, and having one or more of those babies bugle, and grunt near you! :o :o 8) Must have been quite a lot of little cracking sounds as the sphincter muscles of our ancestors were suddenly contracting! ::) ::) ;D Again glad to hear all is well again, and no hard feelings left around. Since we are on this subject, if I ever offend anyone, it is not intentional. I may be ribbing someone, and they may not like it. Just pm me, and I will remove the post, and apologize. I can veer off too far sometimes, so if I do, just let me know, and I will get back in line. I like the idea of being able to use abo tools, but I can't at the moment, so I use copper. Not well, but at least I can make functional, if not pretty, like the rest of you. As for abo, and traditional, Emory Coons can do it all, but he hunts with a compound, with his arrow heads. It's just how you personally want to go about it. I don't mind criticism as long as it is constructive.
I don't need mean criticism, I give myself enough of that. But we each do things the way that suits us, and I glad that we can share our own personnel ways of doing something. Because we can learn from others, even if we don't agree with the method. I learned a lot of stuff on here. Jack Crafty has a nifty way of thinning, that I like. But thankfully we share, and that is what this site is about. Thanks guys, glad to see this end well. :) 8)
Wayne
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Ya know how dumb I am?
What does this ABO stand for anyway:)
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Not dumb at all. Abo is an abbreviation for Aboriginal, or Native American, or stone age , and early iron age ancestors.
Mainly just primitive, or using only what our ancestors would have used, like antler, bone, stone, sinew, and so forth,and not using copper, or other metal, to knapp stone. it can cover a wide meaning, and objects, methods, and so forth. ;)
Wayne
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Thanks, Wayne.
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Roy, No bandsaws for bows, must be made with stone axes an knifes :( :( :o ;DBob
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Atta boy, Roy. Thanks for asking. Now I know, too!! ::)
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No problem, Kenny. I thought ABO was "A Big Osage".. :)
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I am also glad things worked out. I enjoy both you guys post and would hate to loose either one. And since this is a long read, I forget who used it first... but whomever first used the "gate in the fence" reference - thank you. I would never have thought about referencing a gate in that manner, but I will remember it. Glad you both found the gate and returned.
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Joe ain't been back on since posting this post..... :(