Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: CubeGod on July 15, 2013, 02:24:10 am
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So, as the title says I am considering making myself some arrows, what tools are required as a bare minimum (kudos if the tools in question are 100% natural or possible to craft using 100% natural materials)
I got the shafts figured out already, what I am trying to figure out is fletching and making the arrowheads (if so, what material is the best, my research indicates that stone tips only get around 10% more penetration as compared to wooden tips and they take a lot more work to make)
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10% more penetration? I dont think so a lot more watch this video from beginning to end Thad shows how much better stone is then just plain wood
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Eoyd1a90tk
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My research is fairly limited
http://archaeology.about.com/cs/lithics/a/thepoint.htm and http://www.uwyo.edu/anthropology/_files/docs/antiquity-2009.pdf are the main things and the latter show just how crudely efficient both are (± ~1 inch penetration in wood vs. stone, both penetrating deep enough to be a guaranteed fatality)
Anyway, I was more wondering what tools are required for fletching arrows and for making arrowheads rather than to discuss how much greater one type of arrowhead is over another.
I am interested in every kind of arrowhead, I want to at least know how to do it in case I end up in a situation where I have limited materials (I am particularly interested in bone tips, how good are they?)
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Sorry I shouldn't even had said anything considering I'm not great at making arrows And I definetly cannot knap stone points
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I think in theory, for a stone point arrow, use the point as a scraper, knife, and trimmer for the feathers and sinew, use flakes from making the stone point to do the nocks, finish with oils from plant or from animal fat.
If no stone point, you only need a small knife. I have made cruddy arrows that way, and it is difficult and they don't last forever.
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I can see your just starting out and your still in the compound mode.
I shot and kiulled 22 doe's and 7 bucks, 3 went 203,209 AND A 222 POUNDER with stone points. Out of those 22 does 12 were pass throughs and 4 other were all but the feathers were in the deer. Only one deer a 3 1/2 year old 6 pointer I didn't get good pentration. I hit his shoulder. I found him 2 days later and me and a friend finished him off. I also shot 4 gobblers with stone points. I did have 2 others I did't find.
So I'm not sure where you got the 10% from. If it was that low I'd dout 100,000's of native people could have lived from hunting with stone heads. And have you seen some of the points they shot. I would'nt hafe them to a shaff. So the points made toady are far better than most I've saw.
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Minimum to make an arrow to hunt with, or to shoot target with?
Your question needs to be much more focused to get any sort of a decent answer.
Right now, the answer is "none". the bare minimum is your two hands.
Your next question should be "how", and your answers are found by digging through old threads to see how various people have managed.
This is one answer:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,12020.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,12020.0.html)
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You can make them with just a stone edge for tools. You'll need more tools for knapping stone, making pine pitch, and some fire to trim the feathers down. Search youtube for this. I know at least two videos show you how to make totally primitive arrows.
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I think in theory, for a stone point arrow, use the point as a scraper, knife, and trimmer for the feathers and sinew, use flakes from making the stone point to do the nocks, finish with oils from plant or from animal fat.
If no stone point, you only need a small knife. I have made cruddy arrows that way, and it is difficult and they don't last forever.
Thank you, that seems easy enough (I actually have most of that, well I don't have a scraper but that isn't hard to obtain)
I can see your just starting out and your still in the compound mode.
I shot and kiulled 22 doe's and 7 bucks, 3 went 203,209 AND A 222 POUNDER with stone points. Out of those 22 does 12 were pass throughs and 4 other were all but the feathers were in the deer. Only one deer a 3 1/2 year old 6 pointer I didn't get good pentration. I hit his shoulder. I found him 2 days later and me and a friend finished him off. I also shot 4 gobblers with stone points. I did have 2 others I did't find.
So I'm not sure where you got the 10% from. If it was that low I'd dout 100,000's of native people could have lived from hunting with stone heads. And have you seen some of the points they shot. I would'nt hafe them to a shaff. So the points made toady are far better than most I've saw.
I am not sure what you mean with compound mode (does it refer to using compound bows? I use a recurve for hunting and a homemade bamboo bow I can't even put in a category for practice (it isn't a bad bow though))
but as I mentioned earlier I get the 10% mainly from http://www.uwyo.edu/anthropology/_files/docs/antiquity-2009.pdf and http://archaeology.about.com/cs/lithics/a/thepoint.htm (this one just mentions that mythbusters tested it so I naturally looked their test up to check it myself, it looks legit enough)
Minimum to make an arrow to hunt with, or to shoot target with?
Your question needs to be much more focused to get any sort of a decent answer.
Right now, the answer is "none". the bare minimum is your two hands.
Your next question should be "how", and your answers are found by digging through old threads to see how various people have managed.
This is one answer:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,12020.0.html
Mainly to hunt with
Thanks for the link though.
You can make them with just a stone edge for tools. You'll need more tools for knapping stone, making pine pitch, and some fire to trim the feathers down. Search youtube for this. I know at least two videos show you how to make totally primitive arrows.
Okay... I'll search youtube and see what I find.
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the tools you will need are a good mind and a strong will !!
The rest are just icing on the cake so to speak !!
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I think he's right about stone points not getting much better penetration than wooden ones. I think mythbusters did a section on it and had similar results.
But I think you and the mythbuster guys are missing one key thing. Its not all about penetration.
Arrows kill by causing massive hemorrhaging in the vital organs. In a fleshy target, a sharp wooden point may penetrate just about as far as a stone point; however, the wooden points simply poke a hole whereas the stone points cut a wide path through the flesh, increasing the surface area of the wound and therefore the number of blood vessels severed. This increases the blood loss rate, so that the wound will be more likely to kill, and to kill more quickly.
Stone points weren't adopted by primitive people because of their penetration, but rather because of the increased bleeding they caused.
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I think he's right about stone points not getting much better penetration than wooden ones. I think mythbusters did a section on it and had similar results.
But I think you and the mythbuster guys are missing one key thing. Its not all about penetration.
Arrows kill by causing massive hemorrhaging in the vital organs. In a fleshy target, a sharp wooden point may penetrate just about as far as a stone point; however, the wooden points simply poke a hole whereas the stone points cut a wide path through the flesh, increasing the surface area of the wood and therefore the number of blood vessels severed. This increases the blood loss rate, so that the wound will be more likely to kill, and to kill more quickly.
Stone points weren't adopted by primitive people because of their penetration, but rather because of the increased bleeding they caused.
Nope I think you better think this though, they shot into a solid block of ballitic gelatin ! As far as I know An animal isn't just solid flesh. Also the hide on the animal, a sharp broad head has no problem slicing through but a wooden point will have difficulty tearing thought the hide te mythbusters test was heavily flawed you should go watch the video of Thad beckums I posted on the first page of this topic
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If you were in a survival situation, and did not have the resources to make a decent point, yeah, a fire hardened wood point would be better than nothing. Myth Busters, are not infallible. In fact they have made a bunch of statements that are not so. You have to remember, it is like the so called "Reality" shows, that are not. Anyway, Like slackbunny, and Joec123able said, there are a lot more variables to consider in the difference between an animal, and a block of Ballistic Gelatin. Wood points, won't normally go through ribs. They don't cause large amounts of bleeding. And with either wood or stone, shot placement is key. The ten per cent data is very flawed. Now as to your original question, what do you need as far as bare minimum? Like Buckeye Guy said, a strong will, etc. But you can get by with a knife, and stick with a hole, or notch, and your knee, or a piece of limb. These will be used to straighten the shafts, after heating them over a bed of coals. But if you have a heat gun, that works quite well. Just be sure to watch how hot you get the shaft. You don't want to scorch the shaft. You want to move the shaft back and forth in the area you want to straighten, and then straighten that section, and then move on to the next. If you are using boo, or cane, straighten between the nodes first, then the nodes, but be careful with the nodes, go gently with them. But basically, a knife, a stick with a notch, or hole, for bending crooks, and a limb, or knee for bending out curves in the shaft, and a knife to scrape, and cut the notch for the point, and the nock. Ok, don't knap, or don't want to use stone points, make trade points, or buy commercial points. Or even make bone points, they are better than plain wood points. That is pretty much all you need to make shafts. Fletching, well feathers, sharp knife, or scissors, if you have them, sinew, or fine upholstery thread, unwaxed dental floss, etc. , pitch glue, super glue, model glue, etc. Wrap a layer of thread, sinew, etc. just below the nock, and just behind the point, if you are using trade points, etc. where you cut a notch to accept it. These wraps should be about 3/4 of an inch to an inch in length from the notch, and about the same from the nock. You want sufficient wrapping to help prevent splitting. Also smear, and smooth the glue over the wraps. If you are putting a trade point, or stone, you want check the alignment of the point. You can place the point on a flat surface, table, piece of wood, your hand, etc, and spin the arrow, and see if it wobbles. If so, realign the point. Welcome to Arrow Smithing 101. ;) There are a lot of postings here on PA, and You Tube. Getting info, and pictures and video is not a problem. ;) Good luck.
Wayne
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If you have your "want to " or strong will as they say in high gear you will find away to get to a knappin !
Them fellows throw away the nicest blades and scrappers while making good points !
Don't tell them but the stuff they throw away is a dream come true for me, they can have all them beautiful points just give me the trash !!
I must admit a pair of pruning shears does speed up gathering shoots for shafting!
If you are wanting the normal three fletch with even spaces and such you may want to get a fletching jig ! But then you will need some glue also !
Have fun
The list will never stop till you finally find a place to get off !
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I think he's right about stone points not getting much better penetration than wooden ones. I think mythbusters did a section on it and had similar results.
But I think you and the mythbuster guys are missing one key thing. Its not all about penetration.
Arrows kill by causing massive hemorrhaging in the vital organs. In a fleshy target, a sharp wooden point may penetrate just about as far as a stone point; however, the wooden points simply poke a hole whereas the stone points cut a wide path through the flesh, increasing the surface area of the wood and therefore the number of blood vessels severed. This increases the blood loss rate, so that the wound will be more likely to kill, and to kill more quickly.
Stone points weren't adopted by primitive people because of their penetration, but rather because of the increased bleeding they caused.
Nope I think you better think this though, they shot into a solid block of ballitic gelatin ! As far as I know An animal isn't just solid flesh. Also the hide on the animal, a sharp broad head has no problem slicing through but a wooden point will have difficulty tearing thought the hide te mythbusters test was heavily flawed you should go watch the video of Thad beckums I posted on the first page of this topic
You've got a point, I imagine that stone points would do far better on bone than wooden ones, and that video is pretty convincing.
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A couple good rocks will put you in business.
Jon
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If you were in a survival situation, and did not have the resources to make a decent point, yeah, a fire hardened wood point would be better than nothing. Myth Busters, are not infallible. In fact they have made a bunch of statements that are not so. You have to remember, it is like the so called "Reality" shows, that are not. Anyway, Like slackbunny, and Joec123able said, there are a lot more variables to consider in the difference between an animal, and a block of Ballistic Gelatin. Wood points, won't normally go through ribs. They don't cause large amounts of bleeding. And with either wood or stone, shot placement is key. The ten per cent data is very flawed. Now as to your original question, what do you need as far as bare minimum? Like Buckeye Guy said, a strong will, etc. But you can get by with a knife, and stick with a hole, or notch, and your knee, or a piece of limb. These will be used to straighten the shafts, after heating them over a bed of coals. But if you have a heat gun, that works quite well. Just be sure to watch how hot you get the shaft. You don't want to scorch the shaft. You want to move the shaft back and forth in the area you want to straighten, and then straighten that section, and then move on to the next. If you are using boo, or cane, straighten between the nodes first, then the nodes, but be careful with the nodes, go gently with them. But basically, a knife, a stick with a notch, or hole, for bending crooks, and a limb, or knee for bending out curves in the shaft, and a knife to scrape, and cut the notch for the point, and the nock. Ok, don't knap, or don't want to use stone points, make trade points, or buy commercial points. Or even make bone points, they are better than plain wood points. That is pretty much all you need to make shafts. Fletching, well feathers, sharp knife, or scissors, if you have them, sinew, or fine upholstery thread, unwaxed dental floss, etc. , pitch glue, super glue, model glue, etc. Wrap a layer of thread, sinew, etc. just below the nock, and just behind the point, if you are using trade points, etc. where you cut a notch to accept it. These wraps should be about 3/4 of an inch to an inch in length from the notch, and about the same from the nock. You want sufficient wrapping to help prevent splitting. Also smear, and smooth the glue over the wraps. If you are putting a trade point, or stone, you want check the alignment of the point. You can place the point on a flat surface, table, piece of wood, your hand, etc, and spin the arrow, and see if it wobbles. If so, realign the point. Welcome to Arrow Smithing 101. ;) There are a lot of postings here on PA, and You Tube. Getting info, and pictures and video is not a problem. ;) Good luck.
Thanks! That and the last few replies before you should be enough info
As for the discussion about the mythbusters test, that test was flawed but if you take a look at
this
(http://www.uwyo.edu/anthropology/_files/docs/antiquity-2009.pdf) which isn't written by the mythbusters that does test with caribou hide covered ballistics gel, specifically this passage
The target, ballistic gel molded in the shape of a human torso, was used to simulate body
tissue and was draped with caribou hide for half of the shots to more accurately simulate
animal prey
That is from the pdf linked in my original reply that showed some of my research on the subject and fyi it isn't made by the mythbusters (Although they had part in it), this is made by:
Nicole M. Waguespack1
Todd A. Surovell1
Allen Denoyer2
Alice Dallow3
Adam Savage3
Jamie Hyneman3
Dan Tapster3
1Department of Anthropology, University of Wyoming, 1000 East University Avenue, Laramie, WY 82071, USA
2Desert Archaeology Inc., 3975 North Tucson Blvd., Tucson, AZ 85716, USA
3Mythbusters, Beyond Productions, 109 Reserve Rd, Artarmon, NSW 2064, Australia
You should specifically have a look at:
Table 2. Arrow attributes and experimental results.
You can quickly find it by navigating to the page linked above and using ctrl-f to search for the sentence
I took myself the liberty of calculating the average penetration for each test
Ballistics gel, wood points: 2.128571*2 (212.8571) mm
Ballistics gel, stone points: 2.348571*2 (234.8571) mm
22 mm more penetration, which is ~10% more penetration.
Ballistics gel with rawhide, wood points: 2.061428*2 (206.1428) mm
Ballistics gel with rawhide, stone points: 2.245714*2 (224.5714) mm
18 mm more penetration also ~10% more penetration.
Yes, stone points would cause more bleeding but a penetration factor of 20+ centimeters is surely enough for an instant kill, isn't it? (given that the arrow placement is good, that is)
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I still wouldn't say that the wooden point would be acceptable (or legal in most places) for anything but small game even with the 20cm or more of penetration. With the bigger game I think you really want that rapid bleeding for a humane kill.
Could you kill a deer-sized animal with a wooden point? Yes, I imagine with good shot placement you could. But ethically, I would not attempt it.
If you're hunting rabbits, grouse and the like, go ahead with wooden points (after checking your area's regulations on it), but even if you are going up a size to turkey or coyotes, you really should be using an actual broadhead in my opinion. Not because wooden points can't get it done, but because in general broadheads do it quicker and more effectively.
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Ah yes, you do have a point about that
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I would say that more importantly then penetration is the size of the wound cavity. A pointed wooden shaft will penetrate deeply but it does not make much in the way of a wound cavity. Plus the arrow will plug the hole it makes, thus negating the wound because there will be little to no bleeding. I had seen this many times working in the ER. People would come in with objects stuck through various parts of their bodies and usually there was minimal bleeding if the object was still intact. This is why you are told not to yank things out of your body, because an object such as a pointed arrow is acting as a plug and once it comes out then the bleeding starts.
The arrow head serves to create a larger wound cavity thus increase bleeding, and this is what causes quick killing of game. Since we want our game to die humanly and as quickly as possible a stone or steel point is what we want. Then we are not spending hours looking for wounded game.
As far as fletching goes you should look up some of the styles that the American Indian used. While you do find fletching that used split feathers you often see forms such as the Apache arrows where two whole feathers were tied on either side of the shaft, AKA "two feather fletching". This is a simple and effective way to fletch and arrow quickly and it works pretty well. That might be the way to go.
Greebe