Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: kevinsmith5 on August 10, 2013, 11:45:15 pm
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So I was reading a novel in which the author had a bowyer making yew longbows where the grip area had a flattened strip of horn, supposedly to give it "extra snap". I suppose in theory having a bend in the handle bow with a stiffer handle makes a certain sense and in theory the horn would be less likely to take set, but have any of you ever seen it done?
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What book are you reading?
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"The Change" series by S.M. Stirling. He obviously did a LOT of research on all sorts of primitive weapons, so I'm curious as to whether he knows something here on a bend in the handle bow I've missed....
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Heh, I'm reading that series right now as well. I just started the 5th book, the Scourge of God. He clearly did do some research about bow making and archery to write these books but I think there are some holes in his knowledge (which is fair, no one can be an expert on everything.) A lot of them are little things like, bows creaking when drawn and the string slapping audibly on the archers bracer EVERYTIME they shoot. He describes the Bearkillers whipping out horn and sinew composite bows like it's nothing in a short period of time.
I remember him mentioning the strip of horn and I think it is either a little fantasy he came up with or a misunderstanding of something that was explained to him. A yew longbow wouldn't benefit from a strip of horn on the handle (or anywhere else), it just wouldn't do anything that the yew belly wood couldn't do with less mass. He also talked about Sam Aylward's yew long bow having a walnut riser. I'm not sure what the hell that would look like but it certainly wouldn't look like a longbow. I don't think he quite know's what riser means and that longbows don't have them. He's probably just trying to think of ways to have them making some innovations to the bows they use but not quite understanding what's involved. That being said, I really enjoy the books and there's a lot of great "primitive" archery in them. I have redubbed the series, "The Nerds Shall Inherit the Earth"
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Stirling is a RenFaire wonk that incorrectly labels any bow that does not have wheels a "longbow".
Sam Aylward's bow is a laminated yew composite with a stiff riser. From the descriptions, I tended to imagine Bear recurves.
It's an interesting series when he is not trying to preach Neo-Paganism.
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My guess is he's read about the horn reinforcement in the nock of the arrowor maybe the arrow plate and got it all confused.
It's a bonkers concept.
I can smash bows easy enough without trying to add horn strips ;D
Del
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Unfortunately Renfaire (or actually SCA) wonks are who I'm making SCA bows FOR....so naturally I'm getting asked for bows like Sam Alyward makes (even though I'm limited to 30 lb draw weights). So I've been making jatoba backed with maple 1" wide longbows (which look surprisingly yew-like). As I'm making 2-3 a week I may try putting a horn handle on just to see if I can get it to Ben stay in place when the handle bends....epoxy? Don't think I can make Tb3 hold in a flexing handle and I'm pretty positive none of them would take good care of a hide-glue one....
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Cheeses... if it's 30# draweight you can make it out of plasticine and cornflakes and it will be just fine...
Not sure how the heck you are supposed to let in a strip of horn... is it just like a belly patch or is it like a core lamination but just over the length of the handle? Maybe rough out a bow run it through the bandsaw to separate belly from back. let in a strip of horn into the cut face of the belly and laminate 'em back together. Complete waste of time and effort. Or you could just cheat and chisel out a 3-4mm deep goove either side and let in a sliver of horn. I hope you charge 'em a lot for this nonsense...
Del
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Lord yes I charge them :)
I was really just thinking layabout strip on the belly part of the handle and polish it, leather wrap most of it (hopefully to hold it down).
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Man, I think you're better off just talking them out of that silliness. It sounds like a pain in the ass for zero gain and no historical authenticity. Clearly this is just a flight of fancy from a nerdy author and in no way worthy of reproduction. English longbows are amazing things. a simple stick of wood that can shoot hundreds of yards and pin armored knights to their horses. There's not really anything that needs to be improved on. Risers and belly lams, pishaw!.
Whew, this post was worthy of the warbow forum. ::) ;D
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At 30 lb draw??
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At 30 lb draw??
What, pin a knight to a horse? no, of course not. but the bows that you are making are supposed to be reminiscent of those bows, right? I thought SCA folks were all about authenticity. I was just exaggerating my snobbishness and asserting that the english longbow is a remarkable feat of simplicity and efficiency. It doesn't need anything to "improve" it. Of course, if that's what they really want then more power to them, they should just know that there's no historical or practical reason for it.
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Very little of their archery is historically accurate. Heck, half of them carry fiberglass laminated recurves.
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You get them to pay you? Around here I can't give away my bows to SCA types! They'd rather pick up an old effingglass recurve and shoot bent aluminum arrows!
I had one guy ask me to do a 100% accurate English longbow, complete with English yew wood, horn nocks, and a linen string. I asked him for an up front $200 and he almost spit out his teeth screaming "WHAT????? I will pay you $75 for the bow, maybe $100 if you throw in a dozen arrows and fully document all your research!"
I advised the $200 was to locate a Pacific yew stave, he would need to pony up the materials costs for the linen and horn for nocks and string as well as whatever shipping charges there were. The labor was yet to be negotiated. He promptly declined, telling me he would buy one from a reputable dealer. I referred him to Don Adams (starting prices are about a $1K last I heard). He's mighty reputable.
As for a Sam Aylward repro....that's 20th Century, pal...pretty normal for those casual time-travelers, hehehe. Whatever you make, post some pics!
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Wow, what a cheap-skate. It's one thing not to be willing to pay a lot of money for a bow (I'm not, that's why I make my own.) But to expect you to make it for less than the materials even cost is just down right insulting. I've thought about seeing if the local SCA guys were interested in some longbows, hopefully I won't get that response.
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You get them to pay you? Around here I can't give away my bows to SCA types! They'd rather pick up an old effingglass recurve and shoot bent aluminum arrows!
I had one guy ask me to do a 100% accurate English longbow, complete with English yew wood, horn nocks, and a linen string. I asked him for an up front $200 and he almost spit out his teeth screaming "WHAT????? I will pay you $75 for the bow, maybe $100 if you throw in a dozen arrows and fully document all your research!"
I advised the $200 was to locate a Pacific yew stave, he would need to pony up the materials costs for the linen and horn for nocks and string as well as whatever shipping charges there were. The labor was yet to be negotiated. He promptly declined, telling me he would buy one from a reputable dealer. I referred him to Don Adams (starting prices are about a $1K last I heard). He's mighty reputable.
As for a Sam Aylward repro....that's 20th Century, pal...pretty normal for those casual time-travelers, hehehe. Whatever you make, post some pics!
Had a few of them my self :laugh:
I offer an alternative. You pay for the materials and you can match me hour for hour in regards to labour.
So you come do my garden every week for the next six months or, you can come re-decorate my front living room plus maybe a bedroom. Thats it they dont have any other skills I can use. Soon back off.
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That's a good idea. 8)
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You get them to pay you? Around here I can't give away my bows to SCA types! They'd rather pick up an old effingglass recurve and shoot bent aluminum arrows!
I had one guy ask me to do a 100% accurate English longbow, complete with English yew wood, horn nocks, and a linen string. I asked him for an up front $200 and he almost spit out his teeth screaming "WHAT????? I will pay you $75 for the bow, maybe $100 if you throw in a dozen arrows and fully document all your research!"
I advised the $200 was to locate a Pacific yew stave, he would need to pony up the materials costs for the linen and horn for nocks and string as well as whatever shipping charges there were. The labor was yet to be negotiated. He promptly declined, telling me he would buy one from a reputable dealer. I referred him to Don Adams (starting prices are about a $1K last I heard). He's mighty reputable.
As for a Sam Aylward repro....that's 20th Century, pal...pretty normal for those casual time-travelers, hehehe. Whatever you make, post some pics!
lol $75? i make kid recurves for that much lol that guy is on crack.
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You get them to pay you? Around here I can't give away my bows to SCA types! They'd rather pick up an old effingglass recurve and shoot bent aluminum arrows!
I had one guy ask me to do a 100% accurate English longbow, complete with English yew wood, horn nocks, and a linen string. I asked him for an up front $200 and he almost spit out his teeth screaming "WHAT????? I will pay you $75 for the bow, maybe $100 if you throw in a dozen arrows and fully document all your research!"
I advised the $200 was to locate a Pacific yew stave, he would need to pony up the materials costs for the linen and horn for nocks and string as well as whatever shipping charges there were. The labor was yet to be negotiated. He promptly declined, telling me he would buy one from a reputable dealer. I referred him to Don Adams (starting prices are about a $1K last I heard). He's mighty reputable.
As for a Sam Aylward repro....that's 20th Century, pal...pretty normal for those casual time-travelers, hehehe. Whatever you make, post some pics!
lol $75? i make kid recurves for that much lol that guy is on crack.
But I bet he has $1200 tied up in action figures from Lord of the Rings!
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I've actually made two with horn handles so far. Hickory backed Jatoba and maple backed Jatoba. The hickory backed Jatoba is for an SCA shooter that is an actual serious archer as well and pulls 65 at 28. The maple backed one (pic) is for someone who wanted a "pretty bow" and was the first one I made (30 at 28). Near as I can tell the horn adds nothing to the draw or speed (at least the way I'm doing it) but does seem to reduce hand shock (maybe by stiffening the handle?).
Yes they pay me, but you gotta remember the bows I sell to them are PRETTY but not necessarily good shooters. When ine if them wants a good shooter its the rare one that appreciates the difficulty of making them. I paint Celtic knots on them, use exotic hardwoods in the risers (most of what I sell are flat bows with cut shelves) and crest the arrows in attractive patterns. I do spine match the arrow sets I sell, which has gotten me a reputation for selling good arrows (many of them have never experienced shooting a set that is consistent). Doing shooting demos and competing in their archery events helps. My overhead costs are low as I get most of my wood from a local trim shop that sells me the raw milled wood and let's me have scraps for free (risers and nock tips) of exotics.