Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Prarie Bowyer on September 19, 2013, 03:43:22 pm
-
I got my ends flipped around last night and the spoke shaving was easy and smooth. Next things I know I chrysaled the belly of my first Osage Bow.
Considering a Torges Patch, A filled saw kerf, or wrapping it with dewaxed bowstring and soaking in super glue. Soaked the actual line in superglue.
Other than that the bow is coming along. I don't want to scrap it. What is the best case fix?
-
If i were you i would use sinew . I could even mail you some ( no charge) if you sont have any ( i am trying to build up my good karma) let me know friend . You can call me if ya want tonight aroumd 6 pm eastern time. @ 239 362 6166 jesse rush
-
How would you use sinew? I've done the super glue soaked bowstring wrap on a lifted fiber.
I've also tried the torges patch but the bow broke near the patch. I'd had to do it a few time on the same bow.
I've also done a kerf cut and then filled the kerf with wood and superglue but it was a light draw bow. This is to now. It is a trilam of maple, bamboo, and Osage. Other than this one issue the rest of the bow is nearly finished and coming along killer.
-
I have used a horn patch with success on ocean spray which is similar density to Osage.
-
First time I used a torges patch, it was on a yellow heart bow. I used osage for the patch. It popped right out, I am thinking because I didn't either get a good enough glue up (with tb3), or it was just too strong for the yellow heart, or both. So my only advice, is don't use an osage patch on a yellow heart bow! :)
-
Here's a bow I did with a "Torges patch"
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,34856.msg459457.html#msg459457 (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,34856.msg459457.html#msg459457)
I used Urac for the glue. You don't clamp this type of patch done with Urac (Now Unibond 800) This type of adhesive has some "suck" to it, whereas TBII type glues like a tight joint. I'd trust Urac/Unibond to hold better over the long run anyway. Dean told me years ago that when he switched to Urac for gluing on handles and such, he quit having glue failures. Good luck!
-
How is that bow holding up?
-
Chrysals/frets can easily be repaired using a shallow patch. Easier still if the bow is unfinished. For a radius belly the finished patch will look like a football patch for example. Patch will look very nice. Nothing looks worse than a goobed wrap on a new bow............Art
-
If I was in this spot I would find a way to make it looked like part of the design or make a womans or kids bow.but that's my OCD!cheer's!
-
OOOps.....
Dean Torges style patch made from osage. Glued with urac or resourcinol. Go to his website for a detailed description of the process...don't use a clamp!
Sinew - you'll need shed loads and the belly wood is already cabbage...
Horn has very low bend resistance and very different properties than osage.
Wrapping does nothing other than hide the problem - it isn't fixed when you wrap it!
-
A chrysal in Osage you say ? Never heard of such nonsense
-
I have never heard of it either. Must be really hinging there and have flat wide back and narrow rounded belly. You can not remove a chrysal in any wood without cutting it out. You can however stop it form working by relieving all of its stress.
Its a compression fracture causing wood to lift and buckle due to concentrated stresses. First remedy to to get your tiller correct if its not. Second is you take a sewing needle and basically stop drill the fracture. Look up stop drilling for sheet metal cracks. This stops it from spreading. Then, you make a series of small and deep punctures all around the fracture. You want them about 1/4 inch away, no more, a little less is ok. Do them in a line as if you were making a circle around the chrysal. maybe spaced out from each other 1/32 inch apart. These punctures relieve the compression stresses of that section and spread them out further. After this is done, burnish the raised fracture back down flat. Do not sand or scrape here at all, its already too weak and that will only make it weaker. You may also want to touch the area very lightly with some localized heat treatment to firm up that part of the belly wood.
This is a method I have done several times on different woods. If you do it with uniformity, it can look decent. If not, do a wrap to hide it. It works and works well. This is a method used on dope and fabric aircraft skins to repair rips and tears in the fabric skin. Give it a go and post pics. I want to see chrysals in osage. Id like to know how that happened.
-
I used to try to fix them, but now when one of my bows develops a chrysal I accept that something was wrong with my design or execution and I chuck it. It's not worth the effort in my opinion.
-
What Gordon said. Not worth the time to me,always looking for a reason to build another anyway. :) :)
Pappy
-
I used to try to fix them, but now when one of my bows develops a chrysal I accept that something was wrong with my design or execution and I chuck it. It's not worth the effort in my opinion.
What Gordon said. Not worth the time to me,always looking for a reason to build another anyway. :) :)
Pappy
Wise words from those that are rich in yellow gold or whatever ;D! But for us poor folk, a different story. Learning to repair, and not replace, hones one's skills as well. And if you don't have another stave to jump right on, and excuse to at least screw something else up :'(................Art
-
There's any number of reasons for patching limbs. Like frets, cracks and knots. Knowing how to fix or repairs these problems should be an integral part of bow-making IMO.
-
Prairie - We're going shooting tomorrow and she'll be shooting it! The patch is plenty strong. Like Dean says though, leave the patch just a wee proud of the limb surface, as it has not been compressed yet. Shoot it in and recheck tiller.
-
I had a 61# osage bow that developed a serious chrysal. I didn't know about the Torgus patch at the time so I decided to grind it out. By the time I got to the bottom of the chrysal and retillered my beautiful osage bow was 20#. Try the patch or turn it into a kids bow! Dale
-
A chrysal in Osage you say ? Never heard of such nonsense
Made bow from standing ded wood.
-
If you do the Torges-style patch, scrape both pieces with a toothing plane blade so there's no way you can starve the joint of glue... and use Unibond. I've done a couple of these at suspect knots and other flaws and have never had one come loose. If you match the wood grain, you can hardly see it.
-
Torges patch even with urac is not always perfect. I have had some lift at the edges a bit, after retraining, the main part stays glued. I prefer a longer shallower hand rasped patch, where thin flexible wood bends to conform to the shape. It gives more gluing surface, and less abrupt transitions where a lift can start. The icecream scoop patch is a little short and deep for my liking.
Whatever you do I wish you success.
-
A friend had serious back surgery right after he started the finish work on a Bamboo backed English longbow. The bow had a pencil eraser sized punky knot at mid limb thats failure cause a chrysal around it. Bottom line, the bow was toast, so I took it home and patched it.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img94/8351/8vuj.jpg)
I haven't shot it yet as I am adding tip overlays, one of which popped off when I took the clamps off this morning. I have not had good luck with the Gorilla brand super glue gel. I will redo the overlays with urac and see how the patch holds up. This bow is very narrow, just over an inch wide.
I have done one of these patches in the past, it held up for 3 years of hard shooting then started cracking loose.
-
Here's the affected area of a bamboo backed recurve I patched a few years ago. It's holding up very well.
-
Original name, aye? ::)
-
Original name, aye? ::)
Cool!
-
Eric,
I have good luck in general with the gorilla super glue BUT some woods it dosen't like to stick to or you need to get a well matched surface and clamp them together really well.
Oily Resinous woods not so much.
-
I was out of my normal Loc-tite super glue which makes a bullet broof bond every time.
-
I used to try to fix them, but now when one of my bows develops a chrysal I accept that something was wrong with my design or execution and I chuck it. It's not worth the effort in my opinion.
+1.
-
Just another example.
As for those who toss a bow that chrysals, I guess you have access to a lot more Osage than some of us. Want to share? ;)
-
As for those who toss a bow that chrysals, I guess you have access to a lot more Osage than some of us. Want to share?
There is a difference between fixing a flaw in the wood and trying to fix a flaw in design and/or execution (i.e. a chrysal). I'm all for fixing wood flaws - I do that frequently. But if you are trying to patch a problem that is due to poor design or execution (i.e. poor tiller, inappropriate limb design, etc.), the bow will likely fail eventually in spite of your efforts. The only sure way to fix a design/execution problem is to avoid such problems in the first place.
-
I used to try to fix them, but now when one of my bows develops a chrysal I accept that something was wrong with my design or execution and I chuck it. It's not worth the effort in my opinion.
Im with Gordon on this one.
I once tried a Dean Torges patch with succes, but the bow was already ruined in my mind.
Cheers
-
I used to try to fix them, but now when one of my bows develops a chrysal I accept that something was wrong with my design or execution and I chuck it. It's not worth the effort in my opinion.
Im with Gordon on this one.
I once tried a Dean Torges patch with succes, but the bow was already ruined in my mind.
Cheers
Me too. It can be done and is a valid technique well worth learning.
-
I'm with Gordon. I'll fix bows by grinding out knots that might fail and such.... but if it chrysals because of my tillering or inappropriate design for the wood species, etc.... it's firewood. Definitely a skill worth mastering though, IMO.
-
To chuck your bow at this point would be a wasted opportunity to gain some experience that may serve you at some point later on. The more you know, the further you go ;D......................Art
-
Repairs are one thing,I do tons of that,frets are another,and yes I do have plenty of yellow wood. :o Next time I find some to cut,come help and I will be glad to share. ;)
Pappy
-
As for those who toss a bow that chrysals, I guess you have access to a lot more Osage than some of us. Want to share?
There is a difference between fixing a flaw in the wood and trying to fix a flaw in design and/or execution (i.e. a chrysal). I'm all for fixing wood flaws - I do that frequently. But if you are trying to patch a problem that is due to poor design or execution (i.e. poor tiller, inappropriate limb design, etc.), the bow will likely fail eventually in spite of your efforts. The only sure way to fix a design/execution problem is to avoid such problems in the first place.
+1 again.
-
Yeah, sometimes you're working on a bow and you think you'll get under a pin knot, or have plenty of wood around it, then it turns out a little different when you arrive at tiller. That's what the patches are for
-
Repairs are one thing,I do tons of that,frets are another,and yes I do have plenty of yellow wood. :o Next time I find some to cut,come help and I will be glad to share. ;)
Pappy
Now Pappy, that would take all the fun out of being a free-loader, LOL! ;D Art
-
;) ;D ;D ;D
Pappy
-
I patched a bad crack and a large raised splinter on a bow I made for a friend with super glue and a glue soaked string serving wrap.
Tony is in the blue shirt, he finished second in the IBO world championship with the bow I repaired for him. I made Noland's bow as well, the guy in the orange shirt who finished third, and yes, I repaired his bow as well after he slammed a car door on it and broke the tip end off.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img15/9948/dhmh.jpg)
Bow repairs go hand in hand with wood bow making. I never trash a broken or flawed bow even if I can only salvage one limb off it to splice to a new limb and keep the bow shooting.
-
Fixing broken tips and repairing bows is one thing and yes, it's essential in bow making, but that's not what we're talking about here I don't think. I think we're talking about patching belly frets. Belly frets are over stressed wood and as Gordon has so correctly pointed out, they're the result of a poor design or poor execution. It's a mistake, and something to learn from.
-
Well, I've repaired frets on bows that's still going strong. I don't think my designs were wrong. Perhaps max out a bit, but not wrong. A little added wood, or stronger wood solved the problem. I think this person is looking for solutions for a fix that'll get him back in the game with this bow. We all know that hindsight is 20/20 ;D......................Art
-
I understand where he is coming from,I guess in the earlier years I would have
tried about anything to save a bow[and did] and some of the ideas here will probably work ,if not for good at least for a while,so he should take the advice given from those that have done it and go for it, if it works he will be happy if not then he can move on. :) I also will try repairs,on most selfbows their is some repairs along the way [almost always] I also save broken limbs and all of that for future use.But some problems such as frets I just retire it or most likely cut it up and cook brats with it and move on. ;) :) :) Let us know how you proceed and how it works out for you. :)
Pappy
-
A chrysal in Osage you say ? Never heard of such nonsense
Made bow from standing ded wood.
That's not the cause of your frets...I've made quite a few osage bows from standing dead wood,or wood from logs laying on the ground for years and years....was this the wood you just gathered recently? Maybe your moisture content was way to high...and add in a poor design and tiller and that can probably cause issues...?
I'm with Gordon and pappy all the way....fixing flaws in the wood are one thing,but trying to fix poor craftsmanship with a patch is making firewood.....best to learn from the mistake and fix the craftsmanship...and I think the back n forth debate between whether to fix or not has overshadowed the more important reason...and that's WHY did it fret? If he doesn't find out why he's likely to repeat his mistake...jus saying
He could grind off most of the osage and glue a new belly lam on too
-
It would be helpful if we know more about the effected area. I've patched as little as one fret. Patching a small effected area vs half a limb is another story. I think we all have visions of plum pudding dancing around in our heads ;D! Art
-
I have never had a bow develop frets, never. I have a design I use that seems to be immune to such and only use osage for my bows which is a plus as well.
I have turned down a bunch of bow repairs to correct frets because I don't like fooling with them or working on bows that other people made. The bow I am working on now is a favor to a friend who is in recovery from very serious neck surgery(4 vertebra fused) and can't fix it himself.
-
Seems to be holding but the patch chrysaled and I started a new one next to it. I used a saw kerf on the new one and it seems to have stopped it. Filled the kerf with Osage chip glued in with good quality super glue.
-
Repairs are one thing,I do tons of that,frets are another,and yes I do have plenty of yellow wood. :o Next time I find some to cut,come help and I will be glad to share. ;)
Pappy
Just let me know when to come.
Jim
-
Seems to be holding but the patch chrysaled and I started a new one next to it. I used a saw kerf on the new one and it seems to have stopped it. Filled the kerf with Osage chip glued in with good quality super glue.
My answer - stop making weak spots on your bows.
Forget about patches for now just learn how to tiller properly.
Might sound harsh but it's the best way! Make a tillering gizmo if you are struggling.
The patch chrysaled because you hadn'd fixed the problem that caused the original chyrsal.
An area will only chyrsal if it is very overstrained - simple.
Normally there will be a stiff spot tipward of the chrysal.
-
It is bending too much in that area. To fix it mark a big x there and leave tat area alone. Remove wood frm above and below the hinge to correct the hinge. Glue on a rawhide patch. Retiller the bottom limb to match. I would use hide glue. You can brush on 3 coats of spar urethane to protect it.
To make it pretty glue on some fur. Glue some on the bottom limb to match.
You will loose bow weight but that is not the wood's fault.
To avoid hinges avoid power tools until you gain experience. Use hand tools. Sloooow down. Take long stroke. Go past the target area a little. Feather in your work. Check tiller often...after 20 to 30 strokes for sure.
Sloooow Down.
Jawge
-
Sure wish we had some pics on this topic..... just saying....
-
Come on man you patched a chrysal then the patch Chrysaled so you patched the patch ? The fact that the patch Chrysaled to should tell ya something if that was my bow it'd be ashes by now
-
Come on man you patched a chrysal then the patch Chrysaled so you patched the patch ? The fact that the patch Chrysaled to should tell ya something if that was my bow it'd be ashes by now
Na.... I just got it too thin. I think it works. I also think the saw kerf works. I just didn't make it big enough.
-
Did you read the bit on Dean Torges website as I suggested?
He mentions the fact that the new wood in the patch has never been compressed....so leave the patch proud.....
-
I overlapped two patches and it is holding nicely . Took the bow hunting twice.
featured it in my "what i"ve been up to lately" post.
-
Got any pix?
-
I've chrysalled a couple Osage bows and patched a couple. One was patched more than 10 years ago and is still shooting
A chrysal does not necessarily mean poor execution.
-
I was using hand tools.. spoke shave. Where I chrysaled the patch was from trying to feather it in and I made it to thin. It needs to stand proud a bit.
Like I said ... it's working nice now. I'm keeping the bow.
Pics wound up on this thread.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,43212.0.html