Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: BowEd on September 21, 2013, 09:04:11 pm
-
Ok fellas this one's got me scratching my head yet,but right now I'm writing it off as a bad ring in the wood.This 63"BL was to finish tiller for me 53@ 28" bending nice and smooth.Working where it should.I've made a dozen of these designs out of osage,hickory,KCT,elm,and even balck cherry.
As I was pulling it to full draw for the 6th or 7th time a small but sharp pop rang out and this is what happened.Limbs are in great shape.Thing was this bow was coming in at about 13.2 ounce mass weight.Sure would of liked to gotten to shoot this one.
I maybe could salvage a bendy handle bow out of it but there is a crack on the back now either side of the fade that goes about an inch.I'd have to sinew wrap it heavily there to get it to even possibly work I'm afraid.
-
The piece set back on bow.
-
The bow is strung yet on the first picture and if you look closely at the right fade you can see the crack.My camera ai'nt that great I guess.
-
I had a birchbow do something like that last year,it "delaminated" 3 or 4 rings in from the back with a bang that made me check my underwear :o
The surfaces was abolutely perfect,it was really weird.
-
Birch...huh.I'd like to think it was a bad ring but maybe it's something else.I guess this tree is telling me....Only make bendy handle bows out of me.
-
I had something much the same happen to me with a Elm recurve about 10 years ago and everybody knows how tough Elm is.
-
Well it must be because of a bad ring.I've got three more staves from the tree that are pretty good.All chased to the same ring just down below the sapwood.Goes to show there's a lot of pressure at that handle at full draw.Especially if you got the bow working into the fades as this one was with a stiff handle.Maybe the next one I'll have it working up to the fades with a little more limb working above the fades.
-
Oh did any of you guys try another stave from that tree?
-
Ed that has never happened to me personally, but I know a bowyer that had that same problem multiple times with Locust. I can't say for sure but the bows of his I looked at seemed to me to be attributed to the early/late wood ratio of the ring that separated. Just a shot in the dark.
-
I've heard of it happening if your fades are to abrupt but yours don't look to be
-
I had that happen on a yew bow recently, locust is so stiff it might be a good idea to make the fade a tad longer.
-
I bet that was from getting it bending too close to the fades. I think that is the most likely just in front of a bad ring.
-
Interesting one.
If you want to save this bow i'd at least have a try at gluing it and then do some wrapping. After all you've got perfect mating surfaces! ;)
-
V interesting.
Classic case of the difference between theory and practice when using real materials.
I don't expect the CAD simulation would have predicted that >:D
Del
-
In my case i blame the tree,out of 6 staves from it i tried 4 times and all of them failed in strange ways.last 2 Went straight to the fire.
-
Your dips are rather steep and come into working limb right AT the flares. I would have extended them out the limb 1 1/2 - 2" farther and made them a more gradual slope so that limb bend is slowed before it is stopped.
An internal weakness? Eh, maybe, maybe not. Either way, I'm betting the bow let go there because of what was demanded of it.
-
Thanks fellas.I'll try another you know.I'm like a calf just turned into a pasture with an electric fence[not knowing what an electric fence is].The calf gets shocke once and bellars bloody murder but a half hour later he's got to try it one more time to convince himself.
The early/late wood ratio is pretty good on this tree.Good thick enough late wood rings too.
My solution I've thought here is to either extend the fades a tad longer or not having it work into the fades and compensate for that by extending the working limb a shade farther towards the tip.Which actually is the same thing......LOL.
The bow was working with 31 inches of working limbs at a 28" draw.So I was pushing it.Even so there was no chrysalling on the limbs[not saying they would'nt later though].Seems BL does'nt like too extreme of a design.My fault really but as I make more and more bows I get away more from the conventional type of bows I used to make.Push the envelope so to speak.
-
What I should mention and am sure this is a factor in this failure is that I tillered this bow to 20".Minimal set taken.Got a very good estimate on it's future draw weight that I wanted to land at.Less than 10 pounds to take off.Then I heat treated it.All the while starting with enough width that I could just side tiller the weight down without touching my heat treatment and losing it's effect.When side tillering only is done the fades automatically get shorter.I started out with 1and1/2" fades but by the time I'm done side tillering the fades are 1and1/4" long.
That tells me to start out with at least 2" of fades per limb if I want to just side tiller it to my draw weight.Just more after thought here.
See the reason why I think the fade cracked just a bit is because when that chunk popped off the handle the pressure by me pulling it to full draw had me pull it a bit farther past 28".I can't say how much it all happened so fast.
I thought about it and have devised a plan to try a fix.I'll string it up as is.Expose the cracks at the fade.Fill it with thin super glue.Unbrace it.Let it cure fully.Then glue the handle back on with smooth on epoxy[I've always had good luck with that stuff].Maybe prop up the handle a scooch on the limbs either side of the handle and c clamp that sucker down with three c clamps accross the handle.
Then after about 500 full draws on the tllering tree over 5 days I might try to shoot it......LOL.If it makes it that far.Does that sound like a plan?
Could make it into a bendy handle bow.Do the super glue fix then just build up the handle with cork and leather too.I'll get back to this thread and show the results.Might be a week though.I've got to let my sinew wraps cure real good.They are going to be a big part of the attempted fix here.
A friend of mine here told be he had a similar circumstance happen to him with a bow and he just glued the popped off piece right back on and kept using the bow and it's still shooting.
-
Again.....More after thought.When I side tillered this one I could of or should of left the area at te fades alone and side tapered above it more.Ok...I'm through talking to myself thanks for the comments fellas.
-
Never seen that before Ed. I hope you can save it! Josh
-
I think you should do that but also add sinew on the handle just for safety. I think it sounds lik a good idea for some reason ;D
-
Well you know fellas sh^% happens.When ya push stuff to the edge everything has to be done right.I think I got a 80/20 % chance of it surviving.I'd like to see the FG boys fix their bows like this........LOL.They'd have ring their FG supplier.Wait for the UPS truck to arrive.Talk about a non satisfying hollow feeling way to get another bow.
-
Well you know fellas sh^% happens.When ya push stuff to the edge everything has to be done right.I think I got a 80/20 % chance of it surviving.I'd like to see the FG boys fix their bows like this........LOL.They'd have ring their FG supplier.Wait for the UPS truck to arrive.Talk about a non satisfying hollow feeling way to get another bow.
You got that right!!! In your case, it's just food for thought and a riddle to solve, makes life more interesting. Go get'em Ed, don't let this one best you!
-
OK moving along here.This is a pretty straight forward type fix here but I'll show it any way.I glued the chunk of wood back on the handle first.I sinew wrapped the fades with probably a triple wrap.Then put some beef rawhide around the handle between the fades and wrapped that on with some masonary string to give it a little texture.
-
Side
-
Top....Sewed it with good old artificial sinew with a whip stictch with a half hitch in it.Looks primitive enough for me.I think I can safely say that chunk of wood wil NOT pop off any more.It'll have to fail somewhere's else.....LOL.I've tillered it to 28.5"@ 53#.No noises yet and have been shooting it in.I'll show the final look after the finish etc.
-
Tough break,but I will say if that don't hold it together nothing will, :) :) Nice repair /save and I think it should work. :)
Pappy
-
I'm kinda warming up to the bow as a favorite for a while.It shoots great pappy.Right where I'm looking.Light as a feather.14 ounces.Perfect for hunting as I don't care if it falls out of the tree stand or gets banged up much.Who knows maybe I'll shoot a big buck with it and it'll hold a special place for me.
-
Well..I think that's bombproof now ed ;) sounds like your glad ya fixed and enjoy shooting it :) so what ya think of locust(now obviously you need to make more than one to come to a conclusion)
-
Oh yea.I'm brewed up with anticipation of making another bow out of it.Got another stave in the house to be roughed out drying down good.It seems like BL takes heat treating well.Snappy quick and does'nt take much set.A little cleaner type wood than say mulberry on the backs I mean.I think mulberry could be a snappy quick light weight type bow too.
-
I gotta admit you got get a lot of respect from this community for not taking any lip off this wood! Way to show it who's boss, Ed!
-
Hey I'm a nice guy JW.You just don't know me yet......LOL.I'm trying to work with this wood not wrestle it into submission.Still shooting it in.I've even tried to dress it up a little before finish.I'm beginning to trust it more and more.
-
That's just it, I've seen enough of your bows to understand you know what a wood can and cannot do. All you are doing is taking a firm and fatherly hand to this one and correcting the error of it's ways! And as it responds to your influence, it is earning back your trust. Before long he will be able to ask for the keys to the car again. >:D
-
OK I finally got this bow shot in here and trust it.Black locust 61.5"NTN,52.5#@28.5".1 and 5/16" wide just above the fade wraps tapered to 1" 10.5" from tip then quickly down to 7/16" tips.A holmgaardish type bow.The tips are pretty much stiff leaving around 30" to 32" working imbs working clear into the fades.7/16" thick midlimb.It hovers a 1/4" above at rest to 1/4" below after shooting two to three hours.Still very stout to unstring.The handle started out with about 3/4" deflex as a stave to begin with the mid to outer limbs reflexed.Guess I could of flipped the tips some but thought the limbs were stressed enough.The bow weighed 13.05 ounces before rawhide and sinew wraps and finish.14.30 ounces as is now.A fair amount of poundage for a 63" TTT self bow with a stiff handle.It sorta reminds me of the bow in the TBB 4 book on page 99 done by Juri.This one I'd say could be figured with a 6" handle too.
I dressed it up a little with some camel hair colored silk wraps,dyed the rawhide handle to a saddle brown,sheep horn overlays,a little round bone strike plat for a reference point,and some satin spar varnish.It shoots smooth,quiet,and pleasant.Groups well and hits where I'm looking.It shoots my 55# spined 520 grain tonkin arrows with a very good cast.I've grown to like it quite a bit.
The next black locust if at the same length will be a little wider or be adjusted accordingly.
Thanks for looking.
Top view
-
Side view
-
Side view from tip to tip
-
Tip
-
Handle
-
Braced
-
Money shot
-
That bow looks great. Way to save it from the kindling pile. Thanks for the pics :)
-
Thanks Matt.It really was a pretty much straight forward type of fix but a bit of waiting,waiting, waiting for everything to dry,cure, & shot in etc,but sometimes it's worth the wait.I had to convince myself it was going to hold together good so there's at least 400 arrows through this bow.I've shot it so much & gotten tuned into it that I'm in the stand with it now.Lots of action out there.Good luck to eveyone trying for a white tail.
-
Turned out sweet Ed...should be a "shooter" ...thanks for sharing :)
-
We have a storm here this morning so no time in the stand this morning anyway.I should mention the reason for this bows low mass weight is because of the the heat treatment I gave to it.Side tillering to my draw weight.A combination of side and belly removal is best.This bow was a tree 2 and 1/2 months ago.Reducing the stave every week or so down to a roughed out bow.From a pie shaped stave 5" wide to a stave 2" wide 1 and1/2" deep to a roughed out bow with the handle 1 and 1/2" deep with the limbs 3/4" deep and 2" wide to a profiled width cut out bow 1/8" within the final dimensions.Over this time it sets in front of my dehumidifier with a fan on it.I don't have central air and heat my place with wood only.I don't use a hot box either.A dehumidifier will run a lot cheaper than air conditioning.About 5 to 10 dollars a month.I store my bows horizontally in this enviornment always.No problems whatsoever of lose of draw weight of any bows even hickory.I keep at least 4 humidity guages throughout the house here.All staying at 45% to 55% humidity.Here's a picture or two of how I do it.It's not the best way or the only way just my way.Good tillering is a must here too.Getting wood to at least 8% will lots of times avoid having to reheat treat the wood which to me is not a good thing lots of times for wood.First the storage rack.
-
Temperature and humidity guage.
-
Really good job with that. The bow looks great to me.
-
Good work on that repair Beadman, sweet locust bow for your efforts. That full draw looks real nice and knowing a little about black locust I'd guess it has nice cast.Good info on the drying and storage technique for BL too. I have some locust cut 7 months ago that I'd like to get at but usually I like to let it season a year or two.
Might just have to reduce one down and get a start on it but then again its hunting season now so bow making kinda slows down for me until Jan. again. Thanks for posting the bow and repair/drying info., good stuff.
-
wow i count 23 bows. pretty awsome do you shoot all of them.? nice save :laugh:
-
Yes I shoot them all and they are all shot in well.They're just the favorites lately from the last couple of years.Lots more bows & beginnings of bows setting around other places in the house.You'd be surprised the amount of bows people have in their house.It takes a lot of constant practice to shoot these consistently accurate & kill game with them.That's constant.You can also see the changes in designs and improvements[or failures]....LOL over the years.
It can be creatively refreshing to take a break from making one bow after another.Get new inspirations & ideas etc.Some projects can almost take as much time planning as making them.