Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Badger on October 19, 2013, 06:27:24 pm
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Another Crazy Badger Idea
It is pretty hard not to notice how the level of workmanship and skill levels has steadily grown over the years. Something I have been thinking about lately is how to capture this period of time so others years from now will have a better sense of how to relate to the evolution of this hobby.
We have some good books out there right now on archery and bow making but techniques and knowledge continue to improve as they likely will continue to do for the foreseeable future. What I would like to see is a conglomeration of different bowyers nominated by the PA members to each do a chapter. Maybe a minimum of 5 pages to a maximum of 30 pages. It would not necessarily have to be a “how to” make a bow book. The writers would be encouraged to maintain a philosophical and even humorous approach to whatever they want to talk about. Not to worry about contradicting or supporting anyone else’s theories or ideas just go with your own flow.
If someone lacks writing skills they could still make a contribution by possibly teaming up with one of our better writers who is not one of the authors. Not sure if PA magazine would be interested in sponsoring this or not. Maybe give ourselves a timeline of one year to complete.
Any Feelings or thoughts about this?
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I would be more than willing to help organize and manage the program hopefully with help for some others.
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I would like to see something new , most of the books cover some of the same stuff , they are all good and even over time they have improved over earlier editions .
The folks on here that have many years of experience have seen a lot change in designs and ideas .
Even when I go back to the early posts on here and read I can see the way things have evolved , so many things have changed from the type of wood used to glues and sealers used now that wasn't available then and some that are no longer available .
The bowers bibles have been my main sorce of information but PA and Tradrag have been my go to lately , the knolage that you find is priceless .
I would defiantly like to see a new book come out with more tips and tricks that some of you have come up with , also more on the Molly bows and some of the artwork that some of you do on your bows , the backings you use .
If you come up with and print a book I will be waiting in line for it , you can never learn too much .
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I can't tell you how excited I was whenever the newest Bowyers Bible was released. I would be just as excited over the release of this kind of project!
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I'd love to pair up with someone that doesn't feel confidant with their writing skills. I was just thinking along similar ideas about a new TBB where each chapter is devoted to a different style of bow and what it takes to make that particular style. Example, Chapter 1 The D Bow, simplest design there is. Chapter 2 The ELB...a modified D Bow. Chapter 3 The Narrow Handled Flatbow. Etc, Etc. Each of those has a slightly different tillering to get best results, each has it's own idiosyncracies, each has it's advantages and disadvantages.
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JW, thats kind of the lines I was thinking on. Once we established who the authors would be would could creat another wed site for the authors and bounce idea off one another until we came out with the final product. I woukd like to see about 20 authors, doesn't have to be a small book.
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I'd buy it!
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I think one of the chapters should be about repairs for some of the common problems that we come
across.
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I don't think its a crazy idea....even tho there's lots of good bowyering material out there I still think there's lots more that could be written....and its always good to keep up with the times so to say..if we didn't we might be trying to read the bowyers bibles in King James version...lol :laugh: ...I've always wanted to write something out for "lever bows"....I've helped sooooo many guys in person and over the computer build there first lever bow,and I get asked all the time thru pms and such...and it would be nice if the next time someone asked me I could just say to go read such n such book ;) ...
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I nominate Gordon! >:D It would be great if he put together a piece about all his finish work techniques. I know the little bit that I have gleaned from him in person and from his build-alongs have vastly improved my finish work. This is a great idea, Steve. We have a lot of great knowledge here.
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Sounds like a good enough idea.
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Love it!! 'tain't crazy neither ;)
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Sounds like I would be interested in buying it.
How to for each writers favorite bow.
Common problems encountered when building them.
;)
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Badger,
I think it is a great idea....BUT, I also see problems with people saying...that's bull, that don't work, ect. How will you be able to verify what is legit, and what's not....and who decides that?
VMB
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That's a valid point, Brian. But it's not like the Bowyer's Bibles were handed down from above. Some guys with a lot of bows under their belts put together some articles about what works for them and published it. Not everyone agrees with all the things they said either. That's the great thing about what we do, there's not just one way to do it. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Hopefully people can go into this with the right attitude and with open minds. Maybe we can even incorporate the diversity of techniques intentionally into the project. Showing different methods for the same result side by side to emphasize that there are different schools of thought.
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Brian, excellent point. Editing has to be ruthless to insure a good product. We would have to agree on who would do the editing, likley more than one person. You would have to edit the content as well as the writing. All this would happen behind the scenes. ..
The way I would do it is say a member could nominate up to 10 bowyers including themselves. PA members would vote on who they would like to see write and the top 10 or 15 whatever would be asked to turn in a very rough draft of what they plan on talking about. Once the nominations were finished I would sugest that the authors started thier own temporary private web site to hash ideas over with one another. I don't think it would be overly difficult to seperate bad info from good info and some of it would just be based on the writers opinion which may or may not agree with everyone else.
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Sounds great then guys.....I will be watching... 8) :laugh:
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I would like to see some new information about different wood types, like some of the west coast trees, buckthorn, Seagrape, etc. I think the list of bow woods has increased since the TBB have been out. Maybe some harvesting information and best designs for each one.
And I agree with Weylin on the finishing information. Gordon does excellent work. I think that finishes are much more detailed than they were back when the TBB were written. I would like to see Dbar's turkey feather backing, or some detailed carp/fish skin preparation and application.
What about arrows? I'm sure something could be written on the difference in cane/bamboo species.
How about a chapter on making your own tools like scrapers, tillering gizmo's, feather burners, spine testers, cauls, etc.
Way to go badger. You got my brain all fired up right before bed time.
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I would like to see more on all wood laminates... recurves, longbows, R/D wood combos, and why... :laugh:
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I would be happy to do a chapter on making (junky, cruddy, but shootable) bows with no time, money, tools, skills, or decent wood.
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I might be able to pull away from my studies to do a chapter on why Poplar is by far the best bow wood. ;)
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I would like to see some new information about different wood types, like some of the west coast trees, buckthorn, Seagrape, etc. I think the list of bow woods has increased since the TBB have been out. Maybe some harvesting information and best designs for each one.
And I agree with Weylin on the finishing information. Gordon does excellent work. I think that finishes are much more detailed than they were back when the TBB were written. I would like to see Dbar's turkey feather backing, or some detailed carp/fish skin preparation and application.
What about arrows? I'm sure something could be written on the difference in cane/bamboo species.
How about a chapter on making your own tools like scrapers, tillering gizmo's, feather burners, spine testers, cauls, etc.
Way to go badger. You got my brain all fired up right before bed time.
I've actually gotten together with some bowyers here in Oregon and put together a list of PNW bow woods. I still have one more guy to talk to and I think it will be done.
It has pictures of the leaves, bark and fruits. Also were your most likely to find such species :)
And if you wanna know arrows, Carson Brown is your man. I call him the Arrow wizard.
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Love it. I've often thought how instructive it would be to interview about 50 bowyers that I can think of and ask them all the same thought-out questions. The same questions that are so often asked by would-be and veteran bowyers. You know, like: "best glues, best woods, which woods break the most, what kind of heat for this or that correction, tiller techniques, backing techniques (sinew, rawhide, how to prep hide glue, etc.), etc., and then compile the answers in 1-10 format or whatever without necessarily mentioning any names, just so people can get an idea, by comparison, of what works best.
And also I've thought about a picture book of some of their works. Not pics that we see here so much but more professionally done. A coffee table book. But that's another subject I guess.
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A compiled book of bags of tricks from a compiled group of pro's, what an idea. I'm sold! ;D
I was a saw mill saw filer for several years and the beauty of the job was head filers didn't stick around long. But they all had a bag of tricks all there own and if you listened and tried them you found some worked for you and some didn't and along the way some tricks morphed in to your own stile of trick. After about six years I had about as big of a bag as anyone. Basically this would be the same thing but in a book to try and refer back to at your own leisure. Wow! What a bargain all I can say now is just do it!!! >:D
Hugh Good Day
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This sounds like a great idea to me. I'd definately be a customer because there can't be too many archery/bowyery books for me! I've read and reread every book I can find so far.
I've got some interesting horn/sinew composites that I haven't really shown about yet. One design is outshooting my best wooden bows.
I agree with a lot of what has been said already.
Chapters by recognised experts on their personal favourite designs would be great.
Also I have two big shelves full of various jigs/bending devices/feather burners/arrow splicers etc....I'm sure others have come up with ingenious ways to fix 'problems' and it would be very interesting and useful to see what people have come up with.
Maybe a chapter on making arrow shafts from boards might be useful too.
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Great idea Steve. I'm ready to read something different in print and humorous about bow making. It seems like lately I very seldom read a bow making book all of the way through because they just seem to rehash old ideas. Most of the books I buy I do it just to say I have them.
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Yes that is a crazy one Steve, crazy but good :)
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Ok. So now I'm sitting here ready to read the first draft. Awesome idea, definitely a hot seller already.
Don't forget a chapter on string making, materials and styles, longevity and stretch, gigs, ect.
Knapper
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I think that all of these are great ideas. I love the idea of the PNW bow woods literature. I have learned a lot more on this site be for I became a member than the TBB. Those book have a wealth of info on the topic, but I think a lot has been done sense the last one was out. They are great for someone new who wants to dive in head first on all facets. Anything new from people on this site would definitely be something that I would buy. Regional bow wood literature with photos of species wood be very cool :).
Matt
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How about a chapter on making your own tools like scrapers, tillering gizmo's, feather burners, spine testers, cauls, etc.
This is a great idea all around, and what outlaw said above is fantastic. I can see this growing to a pretty large book if there are chapters on tools, strings, finishes, bow woods, and bow types. Where do I pre-order?
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I think this is a sweet idea. I'd be happy to contribute, either by helping someone who needs help honing their writing skills, as an editor overall, or by writing a chapter (or some combination thereof). Since most of the bows I make are on the shorter side, I'd be inclined to a focus a chapter I write on bows that fit that description. Alternatively, I've been doing a lot of thinking about people's connection to their food supplies, so I'd also be happy to write about how the art of making bows and arrows (and other food gathering tools) can fit into the food (re)localization movements that are springing up around the US and Europe. If anyone wants to see some writing samples, feel free to read through the essays I have on my website (http://www.aisthetica.com/resources/) that are related to the latter of the two ideas.
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I wonder how primitive archer feels about this topic?
I think once the contributors are selected the next step would be for the contributors to have a round table discussion on what they would like to talk about. Once we estabish and assign the topics we can begain to lay out the format for the book. I think a good photo editor and advisor on board would be very important also. .
I was talking with a proffessional writer internet friend of mine who suggested a posssibility. If we can find a very good writer here in out midst assign him the task of being a narrator of sorts and carrying the character of the book from one author to another with a smoother transition than what we might get as purely individual authors.
If our goal is to produce an archery book of the highest quality we may also find the need to establish some basic procedures to substantiate any claims we make as fact rather than opinion, that being said I have no problem with opinions I have a hole bunch of them.
Should we start the nomination process? Don't feel shy about nomiating yourself with maybe a brief description of what you would like to focus on. How many should each member nominate?
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Good idea, Badger. Jawge
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Steve, I wouldn't mind contributing. I thought it might be fun to relate how this addiction for me started out by trying to make a bent hickory sapling shootable to eventually trying different style bows and pushing different designs to the breaking point, evolving to making pretty ones, then you had to have arrows beside aluminum and then stone points, you understand where it goes.
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Your kind of where I am at Eddie, I hope the human interest aspects play a big part in the book and individual chapters. I personally would like to write a chapter on "exploring the bend" Focus on how design and tillering tecniques can have such dramatic affects on the performance of our bows and try to illustrate methods an archer can incorporate into his building process that keeps him more in tune to the condition of the wood. Things he can just do by feel and sight or if he chooses a bow scale and tape measure.
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Your kind of where I am at Eddie, I hope the human interest aspects play a big part in the book and individual chapters. I personally would like to write a chapter on "exploring the bend" Focus on how design and tillering tecniques can have such dramatic affects on the performance of our bows and try to illustrate methods an archer can incorporate into his building process that keeps him more in tune to the condition of the wood. Things he can just do by feel and sight or if he chooses a bow scale and tape measure.
Then mullet's chapter should be titled "Around the Bend"! >:D
George Tsoukalas really needs to write the chapter on how lumber bows are now mainstream, along with some of his great tips and philosophy.
Having Eric write about phood philosophy and pharming would be phantastic! His writing is clear, concise, and thought provoking.
Sounds like Bryce's chapter is nearly finished. Nuff said.
And as far as a chapter for just plain comedy, I think we should lay seige to Primitive Archery's office until they relent and allow the reprinting of the "Booger and the Ghillie Suit" article!!!
What's the one subject virtually every raw bowyer wannabe asks about? "_________ an English Warbow?". Mike Keswick and Del need to co-author that one! Del can add a few paragraphs about haunting graveyards and churchyards skulking about in the middle of the night to "liberate" yew.
And BowsandRoses idea about "tricks" is great. I have been kicking around the idea of compiling a bunch of tips and tricks to turn into a series of articles for P. A. Just a short half page article with a photo or two. Muzzleloading Magazine does this and it is always the first thing I turn to.
Yup, this book could be really invaluable.
Now as for the person that claimed that The Bowyers Bible was not handed down from on high, I believe we need to convene a secret inquisition to discuss this heretic. Once we have tried them in absentia and found them guilty, we can hold a public trial where the can recant and be burned at the stave.
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Now as for the person that claimed that The Bowyers Bible was not handed down from on high, I believe we need to convene a secret inquisition to discuss this heretic. Once we have tried them in absentia and found them guilty, we can hold a public trial where the can recant and be burned at the stave.
You talking about a Bowyer's Inquisition JW?
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Now as for the person that claimed that The Bowyers Bible was not handed down from on high, I believe we need to convene a secret inquisition to discuss this heretic. Once we have tried them in absentia and found them guilty, we can hold a public trial where the can recant and be burned at the stave.
You talking about a Bowyer's Inquisition JW?
You betcha! Robes, chanting in gibberish, torches, and frightened peasantry! Only this time we use Vikings as the booted missionaries. Are you with us or against us?
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I like the idea of chapters covering different bow designs , more than one author per chapter covering slightly different methods .
This book could be too big for just one volume .
As said earlier , there is going to be someone that disagrees with what someone suggest one method over another , but books like this is to help people that do not have the experience or want to expand their skills , what is said is not written in stone , and if they don't like the book don't buy it , there are plenty of people out there that will .
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If no one published a book because they were afraid someone somewhere might disagree, we'd never have written anything more complex than an alphabet. But you nailed it right on the head, Pog! This book's purpose should be to help people move to the next level using the latest experiences to build on what was already known.
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Your kind of where I am at Eddie, I hope the human interest aspects play a big part in the book and individual chapters. I personally would like to write a chapter on "exploring the bend" Focus on how design and tillering tecniques can have such dramatic affects on the performance of our bows and try to illustrate methods an archer can incorporate into his building process that keeps him more in tune to the condition of the wood. Things he can just do by feel and sight or if he chooses a bow scale and tape measure.
Steve that is what I was kinda getting at also. I've had so many people show up at the house and wanted to build a bow in one day but wanted to discuss theory and mathamatical equations, and I'd keep telling them to scrape the wood and feel it bend. All wood is different and you can't attach a precise measurement, or design untill you feel what the wood is going to want to do. "Just take the hatchet and form it out, scrape it till it starts to bend and lets get on with it". I try to let them know that,"After we build you a shooter and you get an idea of what the wood does, then we can play'.
I'd love to be a part of this.
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Eddie, yesterday I poored myself a bowl of cereal and then went to the icebox for some milk. The instant I picked up the milk I could feel I had exactly the amount I need to cover my cereal. Same way with bows, once we become aware of what we are feeling for we can rely on our sense of weight and touch. I used to play a lot of pool, I used a 20 oz cue, I may go years inbetween picking up a pool cue now but if the cue is 1 oz heavy or light I know instantly. We do have senses we can trust besides eyesight.
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Emperical experience versus rationalism. The empericist knows how to build a bow because he has built other bows and has an accumulation of experience that tells him what he needs to know. The rationalist has no experience, but instead tries to apply a formula to the process, a recipe - so to speak.
Both mindsets have their values. With a limited or known number of variables, rationalism works great. With so many variables out of our control, emperical experience allows us to fudge numbers, make guesses, bend rules, and turn out sweet little shooters that leave us with red arrows and full bellies.
Mullet hefts a stave in his hand, eyes the grain and scrapes a bow. Badger totes a carton of milk to the table and has breakfast. Let's hope some editor out there uses his emperical knowledge to tiller out this book, and I can't wait to read it.
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I know exactly what you mean. I'm a driller and haven't shot pool in bars in years. Usually it seems like by the time it's getting dark and the bow is still not shooting and the guys wife is ready to go home, I grab it and finish it real quick, we get a string on it and it's shooting. I love that feeling. I did the same with Steve Parnel the first time I showed him how to bend recurves without a form using your knee, a heat gun and a wet towel, fast and simple.
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I would definitely purchase a book such as this! I have all 4 TBB's but I think I have gleaned more knowledge from PA than I have from TBB.
I'd like to see the bow building chapters laid out so that a beginner such as myself could follow along step by step through the entire process from raw stave to a shooting bow, (i.e. when to bend with heat, whether to use dry heat or steam; if heat treating is good for a particular design or wood, etc.) but still detail the author(s) of that particular chapter own personal experiences with his/her "tricks" so that experienced bowyers can learn new methods too.
As was previously mentioned, definitely include the other types of wood people are using these days.
Perhaps at the beginning of each chapter it could state the type of wood and the style of bow being written about. But also include the other types of wood that lend itself to that same design according to the authors own experiences. One of the most often asked questions from new guys on the forum is whether to chase a ring or not! This question, for me, really wasn't answered in any of the books I have so I came here. Man I hope this thing takes off!
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I think a chapter on care and maintenance of woodworking tools included making some of our own tools would be good. I would be happy to contribute to this. I had a series of tool articles in another archery magazine (the bowyers journal) that would be a good base to start from.
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We really need a composite/wood bow showdown chapter.
No more theory and machine shot composites with big numbers and zero presence on the salt flats.
I'm talking to you Adam. ;)
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Badger,
I think this is a good idea. Personally I'd think it a better read if the chapters were discreet parcels with the character of the author shining through rather than an amalgamated and ironed smooth continuous narrative.
Personally, I would be most enthusiastic in contributing a chapter on Australian bow woods, as these timbers are far too under-appreciated.
And/or, I could write an introductory chapter on using mathematics and geometry along with bend tests to make bows. I was amazed by the articles by Nagler, Hickman and Klopsteg in Archery: The Technical Side, and have for many years wanted to revive this numeric art. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea, but neither are composite bows or multi-laminate wood bows or sinew backed bows. I believe that as I am not naturally a mathematical person, I am able to communicate the concepts at an everyman's level. You can read a couple of examples here:
http://ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=5450
http://ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=13765
Alternatively, I did my honors thesis on the adoption of the bow and arrow technology in Ancient Mesoamerica. That could be adapted, I think.
One thing I think was really missing from TBB was a good chapter on how to actually shoot the things. I know they were Bowyer's Bibles and not Archer's Bibles, and I do know how to shoot, but I think a lot of people may have been left to flounder on their own after finally having made a brilliant selfbow.
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Sounds like a good idea to me. I'd be happy to contibute if asked as I enjoy writing and I can certainly relate to the ethos of sharing and how this forum has enhanced my repertoire of skills.
Del
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....
Also I have two big shelves full of various jigs/bending devices/feather burners/arrow splicers etc....I'm sure others have come up with ingenious ways to fix 'problems' and it would be very interesting and useful to see what people have come up with.
Maybe a chapter on making arrow shafts from boards might be useful too.
I like the idea of a chapter on jigs, tools etc.
It would help to prevent repetion in the other chapers where people drift off into describing their own fixtures and jig...
They could still write about 'em, but they could all be pulled into one chapter.
Del
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Aussie, I would really look forward to seeing a work by you. As a matter of fact I would need your help on something I am working on as well. Maybe you could just incorporate that.
Del, I like you idea as well with grouping the tools in one chapter, seperate them out into scrapers, rasps, cawls etc. Lots of unique combinations that have evolved on these sites.
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Sounds like a great Idea Steve,looking forward to seeing it come together. :)
Pappy
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I nominate Gordon! >:D It would be great if he put together a piece about all his finish work techniques. I know the little bit that I have gleaned from him in person and from his build-alongs have vastly improved my finish work. This is a great idea, Steve. We have a lot of great knowledge here.
Shoot, here's another vote for gordon. That guy makes a really nice selfbow, and his buildalongs are fantastic, most definitely publish worthy IMO.
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Go for it Steve !!!!
As long as you are heading it up it won't fail !
I nominate Blackhawk, Del, and Gordon to help !
Throw JW in there for fun !
Get it done !
Time is a wasting and We ain't getting any younger you know !
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I think it is a great Idea.
Some ideas for Chapters.
A few Chapters by the Old Heads around here. Guys that have been building bow forever. You Badger, PatB, Mark St.Louis, George T. and Eric K. fit this bill.
A few Chapters buy guys that have been building bows for a while and have mastered the craft. Osage Outlaw, Blackhawk and Pearl Drums them kind of guys.
A chapter or two from Greenhorns that have made no more than 10 bows but are turning out very good work. Cant think of any names for this one???? Somebody help me out.
And Last. A chapter written by the Twin Oaks Crew. How total greenhorns, with instruction, become compant bowers. They have seen more of this than anyone else. And I am sure there are plenty of good writers at Twin Oaks that could put a fine cheaper together.
David
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it seems like a major head ache to me but i would definitely read it!!!!!!!!!! I think we need some very experienced dudes tp get some hard facts and tips. in contrast, very experienced dudes tend to make opinions. we need some people just getting into it that dont have tons of opinions. maybe some less experienced people that have made a few bows in too. theat way we get the whole spectrum and connect with everyone that reads and be able to teach better. i would make it a book of tips/tricks, how to and where to get stuff/use it, and other questions that are odd but people run into on here. dont make it a book, make it a interactive thing like this. it should relate to people and not be like a normal how to book, it should be odd stuff that people run into that isnt the "take it down to one growth ring..." crap. everyone makes books like that. maybe even copy som of the questions on here. i iwould love to read it! good luck!
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We really need a composite/wood bow showdown chapter.
No more theory and machine shot composites with big numbers and zero presence on the salt flats.
I'm talking to you Adam. ;)
Thanks, PatM. Backed flatbows, tri-lam ELBs and backed warbows are my thing... and I would be more than happy to share the knowledge I have with whoever is interested!
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We really need a composite/wood bow showdown chapter.
No more theory and machine shot composites with big numbers and zero presence on the salt flats.
I'm talking to you Adam. ;)
Well Pat, you've been a member of PA for as long as I can remember with a fair bit of experience under your belt so maybe you should put your money where your mouth is ;)
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We have had some great feedback on this so far, I am feeling a lot more encouraged. I guess the next step is to wait and see how PA feels about using thier site here to organize this and what part they would be interested in playing in it.
The feedback is extremely important because we are the readers, we know what we would like to see in print. Logisticaly this could be a nightmare but it doesn't have to be. We will have to put it together in steps, the most important step I feel is the vision of what we would like this book to accomplish. We have the skill and experience here to produce a real masterpiece, one that will hopefully be looked at for generations to come. We may have more than one book worth writing. How well we are able to pull together and then buckle down will determine our success.
My suggestion would be that we run it similar to a bow of the month contest, but instead of selectiong one contestant we select maybe 12. Each prospective author will write a short essay on what he would like to write about and PA members vote, I would suggest we have at least 5 or 6 alternate writers as well in case for some reason it doesn't come together for someone. Once the authors are selected by voting they could come together in a private web site and select the editors, photo editors, advisers etc. Amoungst themselves they would select a committee of maybe 4 or 5 who would make the final decisions on what went into print. The committee would not neccessarily have to be authors. I would think that one year would be a very reasonable time limit to have something ready for print, hopefully a bit sooner.
I know we can make this happen!
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Hi Badger,
I'd be happy to help with your side project or whatever it is. Let me know via PM or something.
I think it would be better if the driving committee was not made wholly of the authors. A film is not produced by actors, or acted by script writers. I'm sure some people here are much better at project managing, some better at editing, some at photo manipulation etc than others.
You mention there might be more than one book. Quite so. Perhaps it could be an annual, or biennial (every two years). Either that or it would end up being a 400 page behemoth. I'd probably buy that too, but it would limit the market due to sale price.
I appreciate people wanting to see chapters by people of varying levels of experience. For my money, if I were buying a book to learn a skill, I'd want it to have been written by people with a depth of experience I could not gain within the year unless I devoted myself most diligently. Perhaps a chapter written by a few of the authors about their journey in bowyery; how their approaches, philosophies and techniques changed from bowyer pup to head of the pack. Just a couple of pages from each.
Dave
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I'm trying to remember which board volume 4 was started on. Was it here or PP? Curious why PA was selected. I'm wondering if PP may be a better board to toss the idea around given thatt it's not associated with a publication that may or may not want to be involved.
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Only down side I can see ,since you are in for all the hard work , with all you experts out writing this book It will leave all the Questions on the forum to a few of us backwoods country boys (that can barely read let along write ) :laugh:
You may want to consider recording any get togethers you have, the videos could pay for the expenses !! :laugh: :laugh:
Have fun Steve !!
I am sure it will be worth the work !
Pat
I am sure if PA doesn't want it , there will be folks standing in line to collect on this one !
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I agree with you on the videos. David, good feedback, as for myself I appreciate the personalities involved here and what the sport has given us in return. As you say we don't need a bunch of 30 page chapters. I would hope for about 400 pages with some good quality photo work. Personally I would like to contribute but I don't think I need a chapter to do that. I wouldn't mind teaming up with Dave on a few issues I would like to see addressed. There are also a few people that don't hang out here like Gary Anderson for one that might have some good input. Myself I am a poor writer and basicaly just a backyard bow builder but I have a huge amount of energy I would be willing to devote to keeping this project alive, I really believe in it.
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Another topic, or 'chapter' could be on the challenges of being a professional bowyer. Let's face it, many of us here do this for a living, and in doing so, have learned a great deal along the way. Many of the things I have learned, have made me a better bow maker. One of the most popular things I do is teach others to make a bow, either one on one, or in a group setting. Doing is one thing... but doing and teaching has been rewarding and developmental for me.
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ADB, Thats an excellent suggestion and one that come up often.
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Sounds like a great idea from here Steve.Looking forward to this all come together.
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Another topic, or 'chapter' could be on the challenges of being a professional bowyer. Let's face it, many of us here do this for a living, and in doing so, have learned a great deal along the way. Many of the things I have learned, have made me a better bow maker. One of the most popular things I do is teach others to make a bow, either one on one, or in a group setting. Doing is one thing... but doing and teaching has been rewarding and developmental for me.
Adam, I like that also. That's the feeling I get when someone I've worked with all day or weekend leaves with a bow that shoots and he has something in his hand he can show his/hers friends that they made.
It is also usually a learning experience for me also. I love it when someone with no hands on knowledge will ask me if maybe this will work and all I can say is, "I don't know, let's see?". It's only wood and usually my wood so they don't have to worry about breaking the only piece they have. And it also gives them more sense of being involved with designing "their', and trying new ideas without worrying.
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I like the idea of an annual or biannual book because a lot changes in a short time and to stuff everything into one book would be tough without it getting too big .
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Something like the" Archer's Digest" would be a good idea. Not sure how often those come out but a type of "yearbook" seems like a good idea so it can constantly be refreshed and updated.
I know that there is or was similar books like "Arms and Armor" and "Guns and Ammo" that followed a similar idea.
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I think this is a great idea and long overdue. Good onya Badger!... Brian
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Great Idea Badger! This may even get big enough that we could apply for a federal grant....when they get up and running again! ;) I haven't made nearly as many bows as some on the forum but I'd be happy to put in my two cents in where needed.
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If this does evolve into a book put out every year there could be a list of clubs and events around that they could check into ( the classic , MOJAM , and OJAM for starters and I'm sure there is a big list ).
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This is a very great idea. I'd like to help however I can. Steve, "Crazy Badger Ideas" got us to where we are today. ;) Lets share what we have learned in the last 10 years with the "next generation". 8)
Look how far we've come in the last 25 years. Can't wait to see what the next 25 will bring.....and yes, I plan to be there! ;)
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I'd be hesitant to advertise upcoming events because so very many readers will be paying for information they cannot possibly use: they will not be able to go to the events. I'd be disappointed to buy a book that was not 'timeless', even if the actual techniques become dated.
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I think this is a really good idea. Someone mentioned chapters on different bow styles. That would be very helpful.
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This isn't crazy, I think it's a great idea. I still run into people locally who think the last all wood bow-maker was buried about the same time as John Smith. However this wouldn't be the people I'd concern myself with, I'm much more interested in helping those whose minds are already wanting the information. Believe it or not a very large portion of the population has never heard of the Bowyers Bibles, let alone Jay Massey, Tim Baker, Steve Gardner, Jim Hamm or Paul Comstock. I myself only discovered by accident, information on bow making I had been seeking for all my life. I was looking for a book on wood carving at the local library when I happened upon TBBIII. For me that was like finding a treasure chest that I had almost given up believing in. (This was before the internet). Up until then I had only learned a bit from a few old fiction books on the American Indian and Larry Dean Olsen's book "Outdoor Survival Skills" that I bought for $1.00 back in 1978. So with that lack of clear information and the advent of fiberglass bows is it no wonder many have grown up with a loss of faith and connection in a true all wood bow?
Even now we see new potential archers interested in PVC bows. The primitive bow has a tough row to hoe, but it is not the woods fault. Speaking for myself I tend to be very reclusive and keep out of the limelight, though for years it has been asked of me to leave the comforts of my wood-shavings to do a demo or two for local youth. Maybe it's about time.
Thanks Steve for a great idea.
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I think this is a great idea. Badger, you have planted the seed in everyone's head and have many excellent bowyers and writers willing to participate. So, what's the hold-up? I for one would love to see this come to fruition. Who needs to be contacted or who's arm needs twisted to get this thing rolling. This has the potential to be a big seller and I would love to have a first edition (signed of course). :)
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This feels like a classroom full of kids all raising n waving there hands yelling at the teacher to pick me..pick me...oooo me..oooo me...lol... .everyone wants a slice of the pie,but there's not enough pie to go around....unless your wanting to make the "Bowyers Encyclopedia Series" :laugh:
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I think the next stage is to simply wait and see what PA says. If PA prefers not to be involved we could do a face book page or something like that for the nominations but PA has so much more traffic I thought it would be a perfect place. Books are not like houses, most people have more than one. Hopefully we can fill a niche. If we get it going I plan to put my energy into the background and not as an author.
I think we should also talk about some of the bad things about doing a book. Editors will be under the gun to make decisions. Feeling sometimes get hurt. People will be pushed to meet deadlines and meet levels of excellence with editors help of course but there will be some pushing. It won't be all fun and good natured games. Ideas and writers will be rejected. Somebody has to have the final say and a book is very limited for space.
I would suggest going in to be aware that it is somewhat of a crapshoot and decisions are not made on a personnal basis. We most certainly will not agree with all the decisions but thats just the way it rolls some times. Look at it like an excersize that will help us grow as bowyers and individuals. It should be a positive experience rather than a negative experience in our lives. If we do a good job on this one more opportunities will open up for a second one with new authors and ideas.
If anyone sees the possibility of this causing a rift in PA memebership I would say take it away from PA even though I believe that would weaken the source of resources which is the membership here.
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If PA isn't benefiting directly, I can't see them supporting this. But, I suppose that all depends on what you consider support. PA is a business, plain and simple. I can't see them having a problem with accessing the human resource from this forum, but beyond that, I doubt we'll get much direct help. I also don't see this harming PA in any way, but maybe there's side effects I'm not seeing.
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ADB, I agree with you. It would just depend on the part PA decided to play or not. If they published the book for instance, it could also help to increase their circulation as a magaizine.
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Could PA not take a percentage of the sales for their trouble?
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I assume they would handle the profits like any publisher, also the possibility of losses. We just have to wait to hear from them.
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If the birth, life, and existence of such a work is from PA readers and forum members ( and it is not directly competing against PA) than PA should (I would think) appreciate and extend every courtesy to such an endeavor. I myself being a product of PA mag.
After reading my first mag from the news stand my tale has been of one totally engulfed in Primitive Archery and its attributes. To the point of building a bow shop at my house. Everything I read and saw from PA that had to do with bow building I had to build.
This should only further the credibility of PA as the Primitive Archers home. If you have the want or need to build this is the place for you.
Keep the fire going. Anything to help.
Knapper
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One thing I would like to hear, is a perspective from someone who has been (or tried) to be a bowyer (or fletcher maybe) professionally, as a living.
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One thing I would like to hear, is a perspective from someone who has been (or tried) to be a bowyer (or fletcher maybe) professionally, as a living.
I could write a chapter on Singing String Archery and the absolute PITA that turned out to be. Going pro is a nightmare.
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One thing I would like to hear, is a perspective from someone who has been (or tried) to be a bowyer (or fletcher maybe) professionally, as a living.
I could write a chapter on Singing String Archery and the absolute PITA that turned out to be. Going pro is a nightmare.
Not always!
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Badger, you're spot on. The publishing of this book has to be a commercial success, and as such the production has to be treated like a business (because it is) and not like a summer camp team building exercise where everyone gets to do everything.
Decisions will be hard, not personal, and with the success of the end product in mind. Anything I write may be rejected. It might sting, but whoever is in charge has to make what they think is the right call.
I think some of the very early tasks will be deciding:
1. Who will drive the project
1.1 - who will then decide what the project will and will not be
2. Deadlines for near, mid and long term benchmarks for success.
Even very valuable contributors will need to be disciplined enough to commit to deadlines and standards, and a willingness to receive feedback.
Do we have any members who are professional editors/publishers who can provide advice or otherwise act in those roles for the sake of the project?
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How about book that features a dozen or so bows of different styles built by notable bowyers? A chapter dedicated to each bow/bowyer. Each bow would would be professionally photograhed and the bowyers would simply talk about their chosen bow - why are you drawn to this bow, what are the merits of this particular style and what are the tradeoffs, what is the history of this style, what materials do you use and where do you get them, construction tips - anything the bowyers wants to say about this bow. Included would be something about the bowyer.
Then after the book is published, the bows and a fully autographed book could be auctioned off as a whole and the proceeds donated to a worthy cause.
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Gordon, The book could be auctioned off but I doubt many guys who aren't actually professional builders want the liability hassle which would go with an auctioned off bow. No good deed goes unpunished.
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How about book that features a dozen or so bows of different styles built by notable bowyers? A chapter dedicated to each bow/bowyer. Each bow would would be professionally photograhed and the bowyers would simply talk about their chosen bow - why are you drawn to this bow, what are the merits of this particular style and what are the tradeoffs, what is the history of this style, what materials do you use and where do you get them, construction tips - anything the bowyers wants to say about this bow. Included would be something about the bowyer.
Then after the book is published, the bows and a fully autographed book could be auctioned off as a whole and the proceeds donated to a worthy cause.
Bingo. I think that is what you should do, except with around 6-10 bowyers. I know I would buy it. I don't think it would even be necessary to auction off bows. I can think of a few that I would like to see including Gordon's flatbows, blackhawk's molles, Del's ELB and halfeye's scalloped bows.
Jon
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I think it would be interesting to see an A to Z (short form) from each featured bowyer. This is how I cut, treat and store my staves, the woods I prefer, types of bows I build, tools I use and techniques employed. So many guys for example swear by their particular rasp while others seldom use them. Same with scrapers and draw knives etc. So many variations have developed over time, and I enjoy seeing and learning about others techniques.
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This is an excellent Idea! I would love to see something like this! A lot of really good ideas already listed. I like the idea of lots of chapters covering different topics. I like the idea of more detail on different styles of bows, techniques, tools, etc etc.
I would also nominate:
Gordan - for anything he does.
Adb - for his laminated long bows
Del - for his ELBs down to earth and comedic style - his posts are always entertaining and full of good knowledge!
Blackhawk - for his narrow tipped molly style bows - pushing these limits and how?
Pearl Drums - his all around knowledge - maybe especially "passing it on" he does quite a lot to go out of his way to help others learn how to do this!
George T.- of course for his Lumber Bow expertise.
Weylin - for his light hearted upbeat attitude about building some serious bows
Missilemaster strikes me as someone who learns new techniques extremely fast and implements them very well. maybe some thoughts on his approach / journey.
Halfeye - short bendy handle bows - or carved backs...amazing
Eric - for sure needs to contribute
Simson – concave belly, insane, crazy, amazing, incredible bows....
Marc St Louis – I would love to see more about heat treating or perhaps something performance related or a focus on flight bows.
James Parker- what else? Horn composite bows.
Pinecone – would love to hear all about PNW bow woods!
Lukasz Nawalny – I would love to hear more about his approach to wood bending. He knows how to push the limits and has done some really amazing things…
I nominate myself to read it when it’s done!
I’m sure there are a lot others I could and should nominate but these guys just come to mind right off the bat.
I do think it’s extremely important to respect a person if they don’t wish to contribute or have the time or for what ever reason.
What about a section on knowledge learned from mistakes or most common mistakes, errors, no nos, warning signs, gotchas, watch out for this, beware of that, don't be afraid to break a bow, how to fix it or learn from it or what ever? Real world down to earth lessons learned from trial and error or pushing the limits. "From here to there again bowyers tale." How one inexperienced person succumbed to this incredible addiction and became a bowyer (and a good one).
I think it’s always good for beginners, intermediate AND advanced bowyers or what ever to hear how someone who is really good started and developed the skills they have now.
Just some thoughts…..
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If I may be so bold as to offer a few suggestions, I believe that a few things need to be ironed out before this project can move any further along. First of all, what exactly is the scope of this intended project gonna be and what format would best suit that purpose. From what I'm gleaning in the original post, the general purpose is to present new and improved tips, tricks, and techniques that have come about in recent years. If this is the general idea, would it not be better to use a different format than the TBB series utilized? There's no question of the effectiveness of TBB series format. In fact, the original 4 volumes were so effective that it might be nearly impossible to avoid redundancy or outright plagiarism in a volume 5. If the idea is to pool knowledge from this community, would it not be a better use of the vast resources at hand to use the best experience and knowledge from the community as a whole rather than 10 or 12 select individuals? Instead of a conglomeration of these select few, why not a compilation of the best tips, tricks, techniques, insights, troubleshooting or whatever tidbits that are valid and useful submitted by members and compiled into an easy to navigate book or series of books. Instead of chapters, maybe sections and subsections with the best tidbits all catalogued and easy to research in their respective sections. For instance a section titled "character stave techniques" with sub sections "knots", "holes", "checks" and so on and so forth. You could and should have sections covering every facet of the craft from layout of the bow to pet finish recipes and techniques. Then compile the best tidbits submitted by the contributors under their respective sections. Obviously, not all submissions would make the cut and it would be a huge undertaking to sort through it all to separate the wheat from the chaff, but the shear amount of useful bits from such a vast array of sources as this community offers would likely fill volumes with incredibly useful information.
Obviously the question of royalties would need to be addressed. I believe that the only way this would work is if the contributors understood up front that there would be no compensation due for their submissions. The only thing that contributors would get is there name attached to their submission. There would necessarily have to be a compensated staff of compilers and editors, but the royalties should be divided between PA and the publisher. Call it giving back for hosting this forum or whatever you want, but PA is a business and should see a profit for anything they might consider backing. Just my .02 on this project. Josh
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Well doc I'm glad you have shortend it up a bit >:D
I have a number of people in mind for a number of different reasons depends on what criteria that you're looking for I'd be happy to share at the proper time ;D
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Wow, lots of ideas out there, pretty cool to see! I just wanted to throw another one in the mix, here's something I think might be an interesting chapter: Have an experienced bowyer or several take a few (5-7?) staves of different lengths, woods, etc. and have them discuss the designs and techniques they would chose for each piece. Flatbow or longbow, width profile, backed (and with what) or unbacked, heat treat or not, recurved/reflexed/deflexed/etc. I'm always curious whether certain woods have properties that lend themselves to particular bow styles, and how I can incorporate this knowledge to maximize the performance of the stave. Good luck with this!
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There are heaps of really good ideas in this thread. It's amazing what ideas can sprout when there's a ray of inspiration shining down.
If I might, I'd like to point something out: of all the really great ideas out there, quite a few of them would, I think, also make terrific articles for PA magazine. Articles about new bowyers starting out, articles about the difficulties of being a professional bowyer, articles comparing composites against wood bows (again). All of them and more would be very well suited to a periodical. A few months ago there were two articles within the one edition on making takedown sleeves. So there's even room over the course of a year for a few new bowyers to write something about a reasonably similar topic.
Gun Doc raised a very good point that Badger's original idea was to capture developments in process, design, lore...pretty much the evolution of the wood bow since TBB. For that reason, I think there would be benefit in focusing the articles on cutting edge techniques, designs and theories of bowyery. Things that have significantly developed, or are completely new, in the past several years. At least, developed and new stuff that is not covered in TBB. All while preserving the conversational spirit first mentioned by Badger. People have dealt with knotty wood quite well for a long time, people have used Poplar for not so long. That sort of thing.
Dave
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"How about book that features a dozen or so bows of different styles built by notable bowyers? A chapter dedicated to each bow/bowyer. Each bow would would be professionally photograhed and the bowyers would simply talk about their chosen bow - why are you drawn to this bow, what are the merits of this particular style and what are the tradeoffs, what is the history of this style, what materials do you use and where do you get them, construction tips - anything the bowyers wants to say about this bow. Included would be something about the bowyer.
Then after the book is published, the bows and a fully autographed book could be auctioned off as a whole and the proceeds donated to a worthy cause."
:Gordon
That's what I'm thinking. Professionally Photographed is very important. Gordon I've always admired your choice of backgrounds almost as much as the bow pic itself. The bow needs to standout. Show it's richness and beauty, draw the eye in. It would be a great coffee table book.
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Wow,this thread could be a book on it's own. ;) :) The main thing if yall want to get this off the ground ,is to decide who's in charge,if not you will have a lot of talking and oppions but nothing will get done. :)
Pappy
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Wow,this thread could be a book on it's own. ;) :) The main thing if yall want to get this off the ground ,is to decide who's in charge,if not you will have a lot of talking and oppions but nothing will get done. :)
Pappy
What he said! ;)
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It is Steve's Baby !
He is awaiting for the publishers response I believe !
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Some great ideas are pouring in. Two things were brought up that need to be addressed.
Pappy suggested we find out who is in charrge. Only because I brought the topic up and posted it I kind of put myself in charge up to this point. That would likley change once the team is established. If PA decides they want to back this project they would likely want to put someone in charge. If they don't want to back the project but allow us to use PA for a selection process then I suggest The selected panel decides who they want in charge.
Josh brought up the financial end and compensation. I believe this should also be dealt with only when the panel is selected. If the book turns into a quality piece of work it should sell for many years to come. I believe that featured authors, editors and all involved should be compensated once PA realizes a return on their investment. Formulas for compensation are not difficult to arrive at. Certainly it would not be a life changing amount of money.
We have some distinct advantages over some of the books that have come out in the past if we choose to capitalize on them. PA is a resource of knowledege. Egos will always sneak in and out o any project or group but PA has managed to avoid becomming an ego driven web site and has successfully survived as a comradery of bowyers just building bows, learning new tecniques the old fashion way by making bows and sharing knowledge the same way they did this in a village 10,000 years ago. It would be a shame just to waste this resource.
So just to be clear, I am not saying I am in charge of the poject beyond the stage we are at right now, this could change in a moments notice and I would have no hurt feelings or animosity. I just want to see this thing happen and become the quality book I know we have in us here.
Next step, we do need to set up a process here for nominations and voting and we need PA approval for this.
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Steve ,you need to pm Ed/Marie and have them read this thread, if you haven't already and I feel sure you will get a responce,wether they want to back it or not and weather they are good with moving on with on the site if they don't want to get involved. I would go to Marie first since she manages the web site. Just a thought. ;) :)
Pappy
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Good idea Pappy, I am not too familiar with the chain of command here. I guess I assumed the moderators would bring it to their attention. I can do that today.
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We take care of the day to day,but Marie is the mananger,she is on from time to time but not sure if she will see it. :) I think they may be interested in helping[not sure on that] May be business reason I don't know about, :-\ but feel pretty confident they won't mine it coming together on the site, I can see only good coming from doing it. :) IMHO. :)
Pappy
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Pappy, something I think would be cool to do and make a nice story would be to show up at Twin oaks with about 8 or 10 staves wide enough to split in half and make two bows out of. Pick out some good bowyers who are fast enough to make two bows over a 3 or 4 day period and do a little experiment. Let them make the first stave into any kind of a bow they choose, give the bow a good shoot in and then test it out for performance. Now take the second half of the same stave and make an almost identical bow with just very subtle differences in the building process, the heat treating, and possibly the tiller and then shoot it in and test it out. You know the guys would be on their best behavior on the first bow because they would want it to beat their second bow. Might be fun and might make a good story. The first bow they do on their own the second bow they have the "crew" looking over there shoulder a bit noting the differences.
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You may need to contact Marie on her personal email because she doesn't always log in to the site. I can contact her if you wish and have her contact you, Steve.
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Pat would you mind, I was just getting ready to start looking for a contact number. I will pm you my home phone, I think she has it but just in case.
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Will do, Steve.
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Ok, Marie is checking on it and we should have an answer within a few days. Good luck!!
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I would be very interested in either reading or writing a chapter on a quest to reach 500 plus yards with a wood based bow. It's been done and yet we haven't come within a few football fields of that despite all our supposed increased knowledge.
Why?
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"I would be very interested in either reading or writing a chapter on a quest to reach 500 plus yards with a wood based bow. It's been done and yet we haven't come within a few football fields of that despite all our supposed increased knowledge.
Why?" PatB
I've often wondered if it were because in the past some of the ancient horn bows were said to come close to 200lbs. Now imagine an archer who could draw said bow 33" or so. I was just researching that very thing in an old 19th century archery history book. The author also writes that ancient texts reveal bows up to 300lbs used for strength training. We know for a fact that there are old Chinese bows in the 180-200lb range but they were made to launch very heavy arrows as well. It is a very fascinating topic for me.
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PatM, Thimo, not PatB. ;)
The bows that shot over 500 were not exceptionally heavy bows, so that's not the answer.
A 65 pounder shot well over 400 yards in the '30s and Harry Drake's record was shot with a Yew recurve pulling 85 pounds according to Dan Perry( The weight listed in volume 3 is apparently in error)
All of these bows were short bows with small hook recurves which is a proven design for flightshooting and yet people seem to be convinced that there are better "modern" designs.
I have one of these bows in the works as we speak so I am on it rather than just wondering and needling people.
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Ah got ya. :D
I'd like to see how that turns out.
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Tim, those bows were what we call regular flght bows. Our regular long bows and all wood bows are getting out to about 360 or so now but we don't have exactly the same rules. Are arrows are holding us back. You will see the 50# class in wood bows go over 400 before too long and our broadhead records with the heavier arrows has continued to increase.
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Steve, How do you suppose their arrows were different? I know shorter arrows and overdraws came into vogue but many of those records were still set with regular length arrows or at least the 23" required now.
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exciting things happening here!!!
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Pat I don't really know enough about that era to give you an answer beyond what I have heard some other flight shooters mention. But it may have been a difference in fletching, maybe not. The shorter bows do have a greater potential for efficiency with the very light arrows, I set a simple comp record in the 50# class using a bamboo arrow that was heavier than my wood arrows but still outshot them by about 80 yards. I had turkey feathers shaved down on my wood arrows where the bamboo arrow I borrowed had small bird fletching. The bow I used was nothing to write home about 10 years old and overdrawn and shot out years before. With the same arrow and a decent bow I am pretty confident next year I will hit the 400 mark. This was also a 67" bow, not really ideal for flight shooting. I still say the arrow is the most important.
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The article Marc linked to on PP mentions celluloid fletching so that certainly plays a part but the overdraws shown appear minimal in length.
I'm pretty sure the records from the '30s were set with feathers and likely linen string as well.
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Harry Drake was definitely at the top of the game, several others from that era were as well. I really don't know of anyone building those little flight bows anymore. You have me curious as to what the style of the bow was and the arrows he shot. Years ago i read up on it but don't rememeber much about it anymore. I am pretty confident we will see 500 yards with a 65 or 70 # all wood bow before too long.
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All the bows seem to be 42-60 inches long with sharp short recurves. You can google images and find a few of his bows with glass backing and toxhorn belly but the basic design seems unchanged despite differences in material.
There is clearly something special about that design as well and it is interesting that no modern day composite has come close to those marks with any degree of consistency.
There have been a couple of 500-600 plus yard shots but there is a question of materials allowed in those cases. Either fiberglass, fastflite or carbon arrows seems to have been allowed.
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I just looked up a self yew bow that shot 466 yards, i think it was 82#. Bow was 62" long. No doubt great bows but I still think the arrows were where they were beating us. We are getting wooden bows very close to the speed of glass bows and still not getting anything close to those records. I htink some guys were using gut for strings, I don't know what the prefferred string was. Not sure about the overdraw either, I keep hearing they had different rules but they don't appear all that different.
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I recently finished up a little 62" yew bow that feels pretty fast. I am wishing now I would have brought it. I think I will put some statics on it this week and try it out next year. They are so light I can see where they would be good for the light arrows.
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That Yew bow that avcase posted on PP? That's a good example. I made one as close as I could to it in appearance but haven't had a chance to take it to a long field for testing.
I did once read very convincing evidence that an arrow does have to "plane" somewhat to achieve long distances. The evidence seemed to point towards sheer speed and aerodynamics not making sense from a physics standpoint when you factored in the energy stored etc.
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Pat, the lighter arrow you shoot the faster it will come out of the bow. It will not neccessarily maintain the speed as long as a heavier arrow that started out going slower. ZI tried somethign different on my wood arrows this year and it flopped on me, I figured I would make very long needle tips and effectively have shorter stiffer arrows even though the measured at say 26". They were falling out of the air at around 250 yards. The 300 grain arrows would go 300 yards or better. This year I am spending all my time on arrows, I have enough bows to last me a lifetime, maybe do a little modification here and there.
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One thing I would like to hear, is a perspective from someone who has been (or tried) to be a bowyer (or fletcher maybe) professionally, as a living.
I could write a chapter on Singing String Archery and the absolute PITA that turned out to be. Going pro is a nightmare.
Agreed! My advice is don't bother....plenty of easier ways to not make a living!
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So are we agreed that a chapter on flight bows and ARROWS ;) would be very very interesting?
I completely agree on the arrow being the most important. I've constantly been surprised at how various flight arrows i've made have actually performed compared to what I thought they would do.
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I quite fancy messing with flight... but no where near to try 'em.
All the airfields have damn 'planes on 'em.
"This is Stansted Air traffic control to Ryanair FR823... hold your take off.... Del just wants to lob a few down the runway, over"
"Ryanair FR823.. roger on that"
Actually theres a grass airstrip fairly near, maybe I'll have to go and talk to 'em... Prob wouldn't be interested in case there were arrow left sticking up out of the runway....?
Del
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I'm surprised this fell to the second page already.
Anything happening?
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This magazine is in the "land of attorneys"
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um, huh?
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Mike I have mainly concentrated on broadhead flight shooting which is basicaly hunting type bows. I do always dabble in the regular light arrow flight but really haven't given it too much attention, so I would not be well suited to right a chapeter on flight. I do however know someone well suited for the task.
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um, huh?
I thought you were talking about PA's responce.
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Steve
Do you have a guess on why Bamboo flies different than wood ?
Hollow vs solid, nodes changing vibration, ect
It see it too but have not shot enough boo to understand it yet !
I need more boo !
I don't flight shoot but do see a difference in impact point of boo arrows !
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Many think that bamboo has better "dynamic spine". It's hard to argue with the fact that a pretty crude bamboo shaft can often radically outshoot the most refined wooden arrow.
I have noticed that a bamboo shaft will do better with a tiny amount of weight added to the tip.
I once had an exceptional piece of bamboo that I made into a flight arrow and just the addition of a target point from a kids arrow added a large amount of yardage to the cast.
The general consensus that bamboo tolerates a wide range of poundage-spine variation likely has something to do with the better flight.
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These particular arrows that are doing so well are actually laminated tonkin cane arrows built lie a split cane fly rod. They have a finished diameter of less than 1/4" and are still very stiff. Tnkin cane is extrely dense and heavy at 1.7 sg, almost twice the weight of osage. For this reason the arrows are split into 6 sides, thinned to less than a 16" then laminated to bolsa wood and recut to make a 6 sided shaft. a 26" arrow will weight about 200 grains. Allen also does an excellent job on the shape of the arrow and the fletches he uses.
Somehting I have not been able to duplicate with wood is the small diameter, too hard to maintain stiffness. I can come very close using purple heart but not quite.
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Update: if PA prefers we don't use the site to put this together I will start a face book page you can all go to. I will wait till the end of next week if I don't hear from them sooner.
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I think you should contact Jim Hamm actually. He actually owns Bois D'arc press, doesn't he? Seems like a better option than a magazine publisher.
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Pat, all that will be covered once the project begins. Lots of things to consider.
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Personally I'd love to see a chapter by Alan on his split cane arrows, applicable to flight and regular shooting.
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Steve
Most of these folks are not on facebook .
Not a problem for me but .....
Just keep going here till you get it rolling !
Good info on the arrows shafts reduce dia. and stiffen at the same time !
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F#%*book is not the best idea.
I know many people who won't go near it for various reasons.
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F#%*book is not the best idea.
I know many people who won't go near it for various reasons.
Why not just keep the discussion going on here? It can't be harming PA surely?
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F#%*book is not the best idea.
I know many people who won't go near it for various reasons.
facebook is about as appealing as a mosquito bite. It is some of the worst software I've had the misfortune to see... it sends you unwanted E-mails to trivia written by people you have no iterest in and if you are daft enough to click on the link it won't anctually show you the stuff anyway without signing in...D'uh... it must know it's you...cos they sent the damn E-mail.... grrrr ftzzzzz hisssss
Del
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FB has this peculiar little thing in their fine print... If you post something on there.. they own it! Not a good place for something you want to publish cuz they'll have the rights to it... Brian
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I guess face book is out, lets just wait and see what PA says?
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If I can contribute, please, let me know. Tough I'm only a novice bowmaker without a workshop, I do know a thing or two about economics etc.
Also I'm located in Denmark (Europe), probalbly a market for a nice bowmaking book here
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May be this way ;D
http://www.fletchers-corner.de/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=18508
Hope you can see the pics ;D
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Sorry to ressurrect this topic, but I just found it, and read everything!
It seemed such a good idea, what happened?
Sorry again, but I would really like a book like that...
Regards,
João Pedro
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I can help with proofreading and the related writing. I still trying to learn enough about bow building to become dangerous! :BB >:D
Hawkdancer
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hello folks..I havent been very active here the last year or so, basically because I'm too busy making money to make bows and when I do its finding the time to post them...however I still follow folks work here with great interest... making bows is my real passion and what I like doing best whenever I have the time...I have mostly worked on developing bamboo backed ipe recurves.... and .if I do say so myself..haha.. I reckon I have the design down...future improvemets will only be very slight...I'm very happy to contribute anything I have learned over the last 30 years of bow making if you're interested and I wish you all the best with your not so crazy idea if i contribute or not. I like physical books...one day internet might not be around and if all info is only on the net then thats not good...books are good
dave
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hello folks..I havent been very active here the last year or so, basically because I'm too busy making money to make bows and when I do its finding the time to post them...however I still follow folks work here with great interest... making bows is my real passion and what I like doing best whenever I have the time...I have mostly worked on developing bamboo backed ipe recurves.... and .if I do say so myself..haha.. I reckon I have the design down...future improvemets will only be very slight...I'm very happy to contribute anything I have learned over the last 30 years of bow making if you're interested and I wish you all the best with your not so crazy idea if i contribute or not. I like physical books...one day internet might not be around and if all info is only on the net then thats not good...books are good
dave
Recurving ipe can be tricky, that might be a good chapter
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so is this project still a possibility, the thread started over 4 years ago. Anybody considered doing it as a downloadable e-book hosted on a blog-site?
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Sounds great guys. Look forward to reading it.Arvin
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Was really excited about this post and how fast it developed. It just seemed to grow wings and fly. I didn't look at the dates of the posts. Seemed like a great idea Badger. As said by guy I think we ain't getting any younger. I wish the bowyers from many centuries ago could have shared their tip and troubles. Success and failures. I agree that a lot of the ideas brought up would make good articles for the PA magazine also and have said before I feel there are many truly talented storytellers on this site with many stories that deserve to be told. I enjoy reading those stories and believe they are like a comfortable pair of shoes. They just make you feel good. It's sad that the technology to share bowyers knowledge of the past wasn't there to record and compile. Now we have the technology but for whatever reasons legal or financial much of this information is again in danger of being lost. I urge anyone with a story they would like to share to write it, put it in a word document file and email it to PA. It is a very simple process and I'd love to read your stories. Thanks for picking up the ball Badger, maybe someone can return the ball jjpso just punted.
Bjrogg
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I would be happy to do editing for this. It sounds like a great idea!
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One of the problems I see here is also one of the strong points. There are so many guys here now that have a high level of skill and knowledge I would not even know where to begin when it came to inviting authors to a project like this. I would consider breaking the process down into individual components from harvesting wood, splitting, drying, storing, to processing staves, layout, design, tillering, finish, wood removal methods, tools, etc and then having maybe one guy actually write the book including interviews from various bowyers on all the aspects involved. make it very comprehensive and a serious work that could stand the test of time. I think skill levels have reached that point now where not too much more is going to change.
I am currently working on a 3 part series non archery fiction that is largely inspired by this site. I have been considering doing some interviews of a lot of the different guys we have here.
" Collaboration", Fertile Ground" and " Proof of Concept"
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Anybody considered doing it as a downloadable e-book hosted on a blog-site?[/quote
I think Stuck has a good idea about looking into different formats.
another possibility might be a wiki, or some other way to spread out the workload of editing among the different contributors.
a glorified sticky section so to speak. indexing the articles or chapters would be important
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I would love to see this book (not a blog or a wiki--we already have that here, more or less). Here is my partial dream-team list of contributors off the top of my head--though I am sure I will miss some. In no particular order:
Simson -- Hollow limb design, fuming an osage bow
Del the Cat -- English longbows
Weylin -- finishing a bow
Wizardgoat -- PNW yew recurves
Loefflerchuck -- sinew backed juniper bows / native replicas
Marc St. Luis -- any bow he wants to make
Bryce (pinecone) snakey/character bows
There are dozens of others, I am sure, but this would be a start
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This is the first time I have seen this post and I love the idea. I have always used this site as kind of a "fact checker". If I'm trying something new I search the site to find out how to do it the right way, not the way I assume might work. I like the idea of many detailed chapters of less well known techniques.
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I am starting to think a video series might be better than a book.
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With closed caption or footers, of course? Some if us don't hear well on a good day :)
Sounds viable, but may be expensive.
Hawkdancer
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I am starting to think a video series might be better than a book.
I believe that could work too! Good to see the ideas Rolling again☺
Badger, when you first had this idea, you were cheking with primitive archer if they were interested in participate in this. What was their answer back then?
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I am starting to think a video series might be better than a book.
I believe that could work too! Good to see the ideas Rolling again☺
Badger, when you first had this idea, you were cheking with primitive archer if they were interested in participate in this. What was their answer back then?
Honestly I don't remember.
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its getting complicated....too many cooks can spoil the broth.....I do wish you all the best with the project...it will be a lot of work and dedication to complete........but you guys can do it...there are plenty of great and knowlegable bowyers on this site......a physical book is best...IMHO
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its getting complicated....too many cooks can spoil the broth.....I do wish you all the best with the project...it will be a lot of work and dedication to complete........but you guys can do it...there are plenty of great and knowlegable bowyers on this site......a physical book is best...IMHO
Books tend to have a more permanent impact. Either way I would like to see this group do something.
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a physical book is best...IMHO
I like big books, and I cannot lie
You other bowyers can't deny
etc. etc.
I agree that a "real" book would be my preference.
Something on mollies/lever bows would be good too - I feel like the thinking on those has developed a lot since TBBIV. No-set tillering would be nice, and maybe an updated mass theory chapter as well?
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Badger,
I think it is a great idea....BUT, I also see problems with people saying...that's bull, that don't work, ect. How will you be able to verify what is legit, and what's not....and who decides that?
VMB
I don't plan to have any official involvement unless someone asks my advice or opinion on something
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Yep, agree with Brian, like bending wood with a Microwave oven. ::)
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I remember that thread Eddie, that's the kinda stuff I was talking about in that tip and tricks post. I would never have thought a person could do that.
Bjrogg
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Brian, I'll try and get some pictures and description up while I'm not working.
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Thanks Eddie that would be great. I kinda hope that thread catches on. I'd love to see your microwave. I'm sure it works. I'm not doubting you one bit. I sure would never have thought of it though. Just the kinda stuff I'm thinking about.
Bjrogg
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This was such a great idea... it's just a shame it didn't happen. I could see JD Jones's bamboo backed recurve build along as a chapter... Maybe someone has some time on their hands right now.. ?