Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Badger on November 03, 2013, 12:54:33 pm
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Here is one we used to fight about all the time, Tim Baker and a few others argued on the side of quick drying and kiln dried wood while many of the purists argued in favor of slow seasoning of wood. I never really had a strong opinion either way. One of the threads here today about a yew stave made me think of this. My thoughts are that if you make a bow out of unseasoned wood the bow will continue to season as it ages just as if it were sitting in your wood shed as a raw stave. Last week I had pulled a bunch of bows out of storage that had been setting for several years not being used. Only a few yew bows, mainly osage bows. Yew seems to be the one that raises the most eyebrows when not seasoned. I wish I would have kept better records on the old bows or any records at all for that matter, but it does appear most of them had put on a few pounds including the yew. Out of curiosity I gave my buddy a call who I had made an elb for about 10 years ago, I asked him how his bow was doing and if he minded comming by to weigh it. I had built it for him at 55#@28. He only uses the bow durring his reenactment shows he does once a year, He said it seemed to put on weight as he can't get it back to full draw anymore. So, my thoughts are that seasoning does have some effect, how much I don't know.
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Something else I wanted to add with no hard evidence. I am thinking now that a well seasoned piece of wood might be less inclined to take set and that possibly heat treating may speed the seasoning process up a bit. Thing slike this are hard to verify as they take years to really get any solid evidence.
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He couldn't get it to full draw bc he's 10 years older >:D ;D
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I'm on board with the idea that wood seasons as it ages. I'm also starting to wonder if the process of seasoning is separate from the process of reaching equilibrium moisture content with surroundings. Maybe there's something going on with the resins in wood or the lignin or hemicellulose (or cellulose for that matter) that changes wood's character and performance in tasks that require bending? I also wonder if a wood's elasticity increases with age? As you mentioned Steve, these are questions that take years of data collection to really answer, and I certainly haven't shown that degree of dedication and patience so far.
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Eric, I am with you thinking that the solvents continue to evapaorate and the lignins somehow harden up like an old can of enamel paint. The older bows behave really well.
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Steve
I'm sure you must remember that I was always of the opinion that seasoned is better. I think I mentioned years ago that I believed that heat-treating helped the seasoning process along by quite a bit.
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I do rememeber, I was thinking about that when I posted. An old bow seems to act a lot like a heat treated bow.
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perhaps there is a difference between the effects of seasoning and heat treating. Can any one comment about their efforts to heat treat seasoned wood? or does heat treating works better with unseasoned wood?
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I can't answer that question completely akswift but I'm in the section that thinks seasoned is better.It's just a matter of getting enough reduced staves around me to let them season at least a year or two before making a bow from them.
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As wood ages it and its cells shrinks,and only time can do that...heat treating does seem to shrink the wood as well speeding up the process to a certain degree...as to how much and if the same as 10-15 years I dont know? I have a strong thought as well that seasoned wood is more bend resistant...and wood that's been quick dried compared wood that's been seasoned for years even if both pieces are at the same mc will have a different tone if bounced of the floor or knocked on it....its all because of the wood and its cells have shrunk creating a tighter structure within the wood...
I'm in the seasoned wood camp...although good and more than productive bows can still be made by quick drying measures....that's been more than proven time n time again...to each his own I guess...if that works for you then great...theres more than one way to skin this cat and be satisfied with your results
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I've noticed my bows gaining weight over the years too. Even my most used osage bow has gained about 4 pounds....and taken no additional set following shooting-in.
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In my mind the wood , or more accurately the moisture in the wood is redistributed thoughout the wood with a constant loss of moisture over a given amount of time. Wood over time in room tempeture (even sealed) will loose moisture till it reaches it's equilibrium of air moisture. I also believe that wood that is extremely old has the increased nature to become more brittle, not to the point of being unusable, but you may need to adjust your design. Moisture is always in the wood, but what does the moisture in the wood do over time?? Does it decay the wood?? Is there a chemical exchange that happens over time to weaken the wood?? To my thinking regarless of how we humans try to preserve anything......everything will decay in some way over time even with our best efforts. One exception in my mind would be submerged oxygen depleted wood, but even then it's a matter of time.....nothing is forever. ;)
VMB
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We know that wood shrinks naturally over time and has to get denser. It seems that Tim's "good enough" seasoning has pushed aside what has been know for centuries as "best possible".
You can make a great bow in just a few weeks, but you can make a better one if you wait a year or ten.
I routinely split a tree trunk in half and make a bow from one half quickly and leave the other half for years before making it into a bow. The second half is invariably better, even if only slightly.
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I'm in the group that thinks well seasoned wood is better. I can make a bow from ten year old wood and have fewer suprises and less set then a stave that is only been curing a year. I can heat treat that ten year old stave and to me it seems to shoot a lot faster then a newer piece that has been heat treated, also.
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Steve, I've mentioned many times over the years on these boards that you'll learn more about bow wood from arrow making than anything else. Something Tim Baker knew absolutely nothing about. And I'm sure you remember mine and Tim's discussion on this matter of seasoning over on PP some years ago. A real shame he couldn't see anyone's point of view but his own!
So, if anyone thinks that quick dry is as good as seasoned wood, then cut you some green billets, let 'em dry out real good, and make some arrows instead of bows. You're going to be sorely disappointed..............Art B
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I've had bad luck trying to force dry wood. I let staves season naturally (regardless of species) for a minimum of 1 year before working.
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art, making up some arrows from the scraps might very well be the best way to test it out, you could store more in a smaller place and have a lot more control over a lot of things. You could check the spine once a year as well as the recovery. This would be a good test. It might take a while but it would solve an old arguement once and for all. My feelings are about 5 to 10 years for a real thourough seasoning. It may vary quite a bit with species.
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You folks don't have to convince me !
I will take ten year old and over anytime !
Chris
when I read your post I thought I had all ready replied then realized it was you !!!
Art
I agree it is to bad Tim did not make arrows ,so much to learn from them !
I have tried to talk thru the arrow complexities with Steve Davis (a engineer and a smart fellow , 2 things that don't seem to be found together )he keeps telling me there is more going on in the the bow than the arrow and I say he he needs to make more arrow shafts !
Steve
Hope you find someone to take the othr side in this one !
Have fun !
Guy
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Guy, like a lot of things in bow making. Not really about taking sides as much as it is realizing a lot of the old ways were established for a good reason. Maybe not all of them but it sure pays to stay open minded. Looking at ancient designs from any culture you want to pick out clearly shows that humans did a good job designing bows long before the internet. They usually worked with a smaller number of materials and became very familiar with how they work best.
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All these drying times you guys have vary on thickness. I usually rough a bow down to where it bends alittle while green which allows it to dry much faster lets face it life's to short to wait for wood to dry! I dang sure don't feel like waiting a decade to make one bow when I can season a piece 8 months and it will still be a beast of a bow and last decades
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Lol! Joe your response reminded me of story my grandpa told me years ago. Its the old story of an old bull and a young bull standing on a hill overlooking an entire herd of heifers. The young bull says "lets run down there and breed one of those heifers!" The old bull shakes his head and says " how about we WALK down there and breed em all." The moral of the story is that the young bulls idea is good, but the old bull, having learned patience, has a much better way to get far superior results. I understand rushing things a bit when your building stave to stave. However, if you really want to improve the quality of your craft and your bows, be sure to set some staves aside to season. When those staves have seasoned well, you will have seasoned as a bowyer at the same time. By then you will be very happy that you decided to plan ahead. The difference between dried and seasoned can't be explained, only experienced. Josh
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If you routinely cut wood when you see outstanding pieces and don't rush your builds or build more bows than you are likely to use, you'll quite soon find yourself sitting on a stash of staves that are seasoned.
I work almost all of them down to close to bow dimensions but then then they will sit like that for years.
If you leave a half log of ironwood for five years and then try to reduce it, you will quickly see and feel the difference between dry and seasoned.
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this is very cool,
chuck
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Quite a few who have posted agree there is a difference between dry and seasoned. Is time the only way to season? Perhaps there might be certain conditions of storage that help the seasoning process along. Once equilibrium M.C. is reached, and the wood is dry, does anyone treat their staves or arrow stock with any special care or hold them in a controlled environment to help seasoning? I have no doubt that archer1 speaks from experience, but would you be so kind to as to elaborate on the difference that one could expect from a dried arrow and a properly seasoned one?
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I wonder what happens to elasticity over time.
Especially pertinent for underbuilt bows, or bows that have been design with no exttra fat. If you design a bow on a razors edge, and elasticity drops over time this could mean trouble. Especially if draw weight increases due to wood shrinkage. Woods elasticity comes from its lignin matrix, and I have no information about how lignin ages.... Its a polymer and I think many synthetic polymers get brittle with age....
Gabe
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Steve, I've mentioned many times over the years on these boards that you'll learn more about bow wood from arrow making than anything else. Something Tim Baker knew absolutely nothing about. And I'm sure you remember mine and Tim's discussion on this matter of seasoning over on PP some years ago. A real shame he couldn't see anyone's point of view but his own!
So, if anyone thinks that quick dry is as good as seasoned wood, then cut you some green billets, let 'em dry out real good, and make some arrows instead of bows. You're going to be sorely disappointed..............Art B
I've made hundereds and hundreds of shafts from all sorts of timbers and have to agree with you entirely. I've got some pitch pine that is over 150 years old....thems some special shafts. even at 5/16ths they are still over 75# spine. My best flight arrows have been made from this wood.
The beauty of making arrows is that they get spine tested and weighed at a given diameter. Giving you quite a precise set of stats.
A bows performance however comes down to many things and most importantly you will never make two bows that are absolutely identical in every respect eg, weight, draw weight, length, width, thickness, crown, time bent during tillering, both limbs of even strength all the way through tillering....etc etc etc and this means that it is almost impossible to do a fair, equal and fully objective test on quick dried wood and long dried wood.
There is a whole lot of subjectivity going on with a bows performance....and that is all that will be put forward with this discussion. I'm not knocking it i'm just saying. :) Also the placebo effect is in action. ;)
However I firmly believe that very good bows can be made from wood that was green a few weeks ago because i've done it :)
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Mike, no doubt you can make good bows from green wood, 90% of the bows I make are cut the same year.But everyonce in a while I will get an old stave from someone that had it sitting around for 10 years or so and it does seem to improve with age. My biggest question is do the bows continue to season the same way as they hang on the bow rack for several years, again i think yes but can't prove it.
As for arrows, most homes here are built with doug fir, whenever I see an old building comming down I will look through the lumber for old growth clear doug fir, makes great small diameter arrows.
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One bit of evidence I might have is the bow I set the world broadhead record with this year. Every year I have shot it, it has continued to improve its distance and every year I have to scrape it down just a tad to make the 50# weight limit.
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Well I think I should keep my eye out for some old old fence posts of hedge in my country.If a person is lucky some of those can be at least 20 years old or scrounge around through all of these bulldoze piles that have been there a long long time from making ponds.You have to put up with all of the weather checks and bug holes then but it would be worth it.Trouble with these bulldoze piles is if there is a post worthy post being pushed into a pile the farmer picks those out and leaves some very very knarly stuff.I've had to fetch my little ambitious jack russel from those bulldoze piles a few times.
I know from making dogwood arrows that they stay straight longer after a 6 month seasoning.
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First thing you'll notice about arrows made from fresh stock is their erratic flight/unresponsive and somewhat sluggish nature. Second, getting them straight and keeping them that way is usually an issue. Hardwoods seem to be more problematic that the pines. Sure, dynamics are different between bows and arrows, but the materials are the same, and some of the issues are transferable I'm sure.
You hear a lot of folks say that so and so wood is no good for arrows because they won't stay straight. Or that particular wood isn't very responsive or makes for a sluggish arrow. And then others phrase the virtues of these very same woods. Why? Because some are getting shafts that are well seasoned and some with little seasoning time.
Personally, I'd rather have very well seasoned wood for both bows and arrows. But I'm not going to let a little time stand in my way of making a bow if I need one. And I'm sure most here share that sentiment. Arrow shafts you really don't have a choice if you want the very best results.
A good subject to study further, and a good discussion all around..............Art
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I find it hard to believe there has not been a scientific study into timber as it ages? I dont mean in relation to bow making but more for the building trade or something similar.
I dont think I have ever used timber that has been much over a year old so cannot comment. So far as my limited experience goes if its dry its dry. I take all of my wood down to bow dimensions within a few weeks like most and season from there. Can be anything from a couple of months to a year to finish. A lot depends on the weather and how many roughed out bows I can store indoors before the missus starts hassling me :)
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Guy, like a lot of things in bow making. Not really about taking sides as much as it is realizing a lot of the old ways were established for a good reason. Maybe not all of them but it sure pays to stay open minded. Looking at ancient designs from any culture you want to pick out clearly shows that humans did a good job designing bows long before the internet. They usually worked with a smaller number of materials and became very familiar with how they work best.
Steve I did not mean to divide but to say where I view from.
I want to hear from the youngsters !
And those that heat treat cause I see some potential in the learning of things I may have been resistant to !
I have had some issues with wanting to guard against the sickening infiltration of gimmickry that hit me so hard in days gone by, I may finally be recovering from all that ! :)
I cherish this younger group coming up behind us and wish them the best !
Last spring at the Marshall Primitive Rendezvous was a real healing time for me , with so many of the younger Bowyers showing up and showing such potential .
I may have been forever changed !
Thank you to all of them !!
Guy
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I do not think it matters at all whether a stave is seasoned or quick dried. Not at all. Nada. Tipota. Methen.
In fact, since woods decompose with time seasoning may be a disadvantage.
I have made a lot of board bows over the course of these years. Really, they shoot just as well as bows from seasoned staves. Boards are kiln dried.
Jawge
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Same for arrows. I have used kiln dried white pine a lot. I wish I kept records. But those pine shafts have been durable.
Jawge
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In my experience the majority of well made bows that have broken, were older bows. My impression is that wood 'matures' or peaks in quality, in regards to bowmaking, like humans or animals, as they age.
When green, wood doesn't make a good bow and when old it has lost elasticity and begun to decay. We might be talking very small amounts that no one would even notice.
At the same time, my experience with everything else in life tells me that just because you might be able to take stave and flash dry it without it checking and have a bow in a week doesn't mean its at its "best", whatever that means. I'd rather slow dry the stave, but not over a year. I'd rather have a stave that was dried for 6 months than one that was "kiln" dried, or one that was sitting around for 5 years.
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Interesting spin Steve.
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The old time flight archers insisted that their best material came from Osage seasoned for at least 10 years. Since we haven't come within 200 yards of their records, I'm going to say that they were onto something.
The trouble with people insisting that it doesn't matter if wood is kiln dried or seasoned is that they have settled for "good enough" and there is really nothing wrong with that as long as they don't insist that others don't continue to strive for perfection.
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Pat, exactly my point. My board bows have shot just as well or better than bows from seasoned staves. Just my experience.
I don,t remember quick drying a log stave except for a maple stave that became a bow in 2 weeks of attic drying.
Not good enough. Better.
Others can arrive at their own conclusion. Just be honest.
Often myths are handed down and become like gospel.
Best to evaluate, experiment and decide.
Jawge
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Experienced arrow makers that comment seem have a more decided preference towards well aged stock. Could there be a difference between arrows made from heartwood or sapwood? What is the difference between a piece of doug fir salvaged from a 100 year old house and a piece of doug fir cut from from the heart of a 100 year old tree? Does it need to be properly dried before it can begin seasoning? Badger's observation about the seasoning progressing after the bow is made makes sense if one considers that bows are often made with a back of fresh sapwood. I find it interesting that kiln drying is adequate for some builders. does kiln drying accelerate seasoning in ways that take longer if the wood is just parked on rack?
I am with Dwardo in that
"I find it hard to believe there has not been a scientific study into timber as it ages?"
There are many types of "kiln" drying and professional dryors have developed different schedules and processes to provide wood for different uses. Could there be ways to bring out the best in bow wood without the wait?
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One good example is the bow I broke the broadhead record with this year. The first year it was shot I got about 206 yds, the next year 210 yards and this year 221 yards. Each year I had to scrape it down a tad to make weight as it got stronger just sitting. I wouldn't call that hard evidence. But it is enough to get my interest.
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What is the difference between a piece of doug fir salvaged from a 100 year old house and a piece of doug fir cut from from the heart of a 100 year old tree?
One has been dry for a 100 years and one has been wet(ish) for 100 years.
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I truely beleive the slow old seasoned staves makes far better bow.
Hard woods like osage has a lot of oils and risins. That take longer to season out evenly. Where most white woods can season past there prime. Whats that age I've never kept any records of this.
But I have seen osage after seasoned a couple years pick up wait as it ages. Untill it gets olderrrrrrr then I stops this.
I know this from building bows thats only been seasoned say a few years.They do pick up a pound or so as hey season. AT THE SAME TIME I'VE CUT AND SEASONED 100'S OSAGE STAVES THAT BEEN SEASONED 15 TO OVER 20 YEAR OLD. These bows will not change in weight as the get older. Now whats the break over age this happens. I've never kept track.
I can say this also when a osage stave slowly seasons. It seasons evenly. When you heat treat no matter the age your changeing wood cells unevenly. Woods like osage it can take the change with stride (SOME). If it's done slowly and evenly. It shorten the life not as much or as bad as some woods . Some woods exspecially some white woods this helps shorted the life of the bow. alot.
Personally a well slowly seasoned stave in a out of the weather place. Will out last out shoot a heat treated bow everytime. As for board bows I don't know never built one. Nor have ever built a kil dryed stave. So I can't put any input to that part.
I do know back in the early 90's I had a friend will hunting his farm in KAS. pull a corner post of osage out of the ground. His great grandfather planed it around 105 years before. After I cleaned off the 2,3 inchs rot I got 6 staves. One did'nt make it but all 5 of the others were really fast,snappy shooters.
Only one have I had the chance to see one come back.. I made it for a old man in his 60's at the time. 6 Years later he scent it back saying it picked up to much weight for him to pull.
I checked it it had lost a pound or so not gained.
I guess he just got old.
I think you all are missing the point here. There not talking glass or compounds bows there old wooden self bows. No need to care about this stuff if it dos'nt work out build another.
You think the indains sat around the camp fire and talked this %$#@.
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Personally a well slowly seasoned stave in a out of the weather place. Will out last out shoot a heat treated bow everytime.
You think the indains sat around the camp fire and talked this %$#@.
I doubt a non heat treated bow is going to outshoot a heat treated one every time, especially if the heat treated one has an enhanced profile.
You bet the Indians did. How else would knowledge and tradition get passed on?
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http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/2123/581/1/adt-NU20041011.13343802chapter1.pdf
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In my experience the majority of well made bows that have broken, were older bows. My impression is that wood 'matures' or peaks in quality, in regards to bowmaking, like humans or animals, as they age...
Not to open yet another Pandora's Box, but I wonder if there's a difference between aging wood known for rot resistance (osage heartwood, yew, juniper and eastern red cedar heartwood) and less rot-resistant wood. Maybe sapwood does peak in performance after a shorter period of aging before it begins to deteriorate, while rot resistant heartwoods stretch that time period out dramatically. The idea that anyone can take a fence post that's 50+ years old and turn it into a well-performing bow seems to suggest that there's something to the idea of long-term seasoning. It's just a matter of figuring out exactly what's going on, and to what degree it bolsters performance.
On the other hand, if George uses primarily white wood boards to make bows, I can see how his proclamations could be accurate within that context. Especially if he uses a good design and shoots his bows side-by-side against seasoned staves made into bows of sub-optimal design.
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I actually do have a test I can perform on one of my older osage bows that have gained some weight. I can narrow them down and see if they take set. I usually keep them right on the edge of set when I am building them. If I can anrrow an older one down to drop weight with no ill results it might not be conclusive but would be another indicator.
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When I was in college, I studied the properties of materials as part of my Architectural Engineering program. I didn't complete the program, but it was a good experience that has helped me in my woodworking. I believe it's good to think of wood in terms of "seasoned" and "unseasoned". I prefer seasoned wood too. But I think the issue is stress, not age.
When dimensions are equal, wood that has been forced dried is stressed more than wood that has been dried slowly. In other words, more can go wrong with wood when dried quickly than when dried slowly.
I find it hard to believe there has not been a scientific study into timber as it ages?
Wood is probably the most tested material we know. Engineers have intensely studied the properties of wood for decades. There are mountains of data. So, what is the conclusion? Each piece of wood needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. But, in general, the less stress you place on wood, the stronger it remains and the longer it lasts. Will it increase in strength over time? Yes, in some cases. Will it decrease in strength over time? Yes, in some cases.
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If Jawge uses mostly Red Oak then he's not using a whitewood. Red Oak has a large heartwood and most boards are all heartwood.
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Clint
Did you fall asleep reading that ?
Tell us the skinny of it please !! >:D :laugh:
Then look up the cryogenic treating of wood and tell us how that applies to us !
Fun stuff
Keep the wheels turning folks !
Another chapter for the book !!!
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Buckeye, you got me thinking about something when you said another chapter in the book. It's pretty obvious none of us have any conclusive evidence to make a real solid statement about seasoning beyond opinion based on personnal experience. A lot of what most of us have accepted is based on personnal experience with no real hard testing. When I got into making bows what kept me comming back was not all the answers I could find on line but the questions I could find and then try to figure out the answers to. A good chapter in the book might be one that offers questions without answers. I could easily come up with a long list of stuff I have opinions on that I really couldn't prove at this point. I am going to give this one some thought. The questions are all that keep me going and I seem to never run out of them.
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Yes sir !!
I typed out a reply but deleted it cause you only want a chapter and not a whole book ! :laugh: :laugh:
Guy
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Thats funny, I found myself doing the same thing. It really could be a full book and the kind a lot of guys could contribute to. A good way to tie chapters together. How different people identify, deal with, various problems we address.
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The fun loving side of the addiction to bow making ?
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Dry is dry no matter how you get there. But I know this argument will go on as long as people scrap wood to make bows ;D
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I have made bows from log staves and board staves of red oak. Boards were kiln dried. Log staves seasoned for a year.
There are other deciding factors at work. Boards have flat backs. Log staves do not. Comparison is difficult. Hard to say. Come to think of it.
Anyway, as far as weight gain is concerned much depends on moisture as we all know. Not willing to ascribe weight gains to seasoning.
I have made arrows from seasoned and just kiln dried. Hundreds and hundreds.
No difference there either.
Sorry to rain on everyone's parade.
Do what makes ya happy. You will likely make better bows from woods that you have confidence in.
Jawge
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If Jawge uses mostly Red Oak then he's not using a whitewood. Red Oak has a large heartwood and most boards are all heartwood.
True, he's not. I guess I should have been more particular about the words I used. I should have differentiated between woods known to be rot resistant (including osage heart wood, yew, and juniper and eastern red cedar heartwood) and woods known to be much less rot resistant, many of which are sapwoods but also heartwoods too. I think red oak, whether sapwood or heartwood, would fall into this latter category of woods not particularly known for resistance to rot or deterioration, as would any sort of pine.
Maybe this is why George sees little difference between forced dry wood and slow dried wood?
Just a hypothesis...
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Green wet wood,quick dried wood,or seasoned wood who cares...its all still inferior to carbon n wheels >:D :laugh:
This will never be solved....even if you think you come up with conclusive evidence one way or another;for every believer there will be ten skeptics who don't believe refuting your evidence saying such n such wasn't done right or yada yada yada etc....its human nature to doubt anything we haven't witnessed firsthand...
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Green wet wood,quick dried wood,or seasoned wood who cares...its all still inferior to carbon n wheels >:D :laugh:
Lmao that was pretty funny
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I have repeatedly mentioned the phenomenon that wood has of gradually shrinking over time through moisture cycling. That's part of the key to seasoning.
The wood shrinking increases the density of a given piece of material.
That's why your tool handles get loose through the years despite the wood being 'kiln dried" before being made into an initially snugly fitting handle.
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Are these bows that have gained weight after many years being shot regularly or are they hanging on the wall most of the time? Didn't Paul Comstock say something about using older wooden bows - leave it braced for 6 hours, then pull a bunch of times to half draw, then slowly work up to full draw. The belly fibers have slowly reverted to an uncompressed state during long periods of not being used. Essentially the belly becomes stronger and offers more resistance to the back, which would be an increase in poundage - could this be happening on a small scale in these cases? A bow that's not being used regularly gaining a pound a year due to it's belly slowly bouncing back to where it was before it became a bow? Just a thought.
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http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/2123/581/1/adt-NU20041011.13343802chapter1.pdf
As an aside I'd just like to mention for the benefit of Australian bowyers out there that Blackbutt can be made into a bow. Not terribly pretty to look at. It's a bit bland actually, but if it's all you can get, then it'll make a fair enough shooter.
I think a fair experiment would be to make some bows of different types of wood that has been kiln dried or whatever, and carefully measure things like MC. Then every year re-measure the same quantities to see what happens. You'd probably do well to make several bows from each timber and store them in the same conditions.
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Red oak is a whitewood. I leave the sapwood on and there is a lot of it.
In boards there is a mix of sapwood and heartwood.
I only mentioned red oak because I have made bows from logs and boards from that species.
Have fun. Make bows while you can.
Someone younger than I can force dry and season 2 staves preferably sister staves and see what is up with that regarding this issue.
Jawge
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I don't think kiln drying or force drying hurts wood at all I do it all the time and have for years. I was never a believer in seasoning until very recently when I started pulling old seasoned bows out of stock for reevaluation and a little rework. I really don't notice any difference on the white woods as much as I do osage and yew but I don't have very many white wood bows I have kept all that long to compare. A well seasoned bow seems to have a lot of the characteristics a heat treated bow has. I know its not all about moisture, my wood stablizes at about 8% where I am at.
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In the last 10 years of bow making, at any time I tried to force anything, the results were always less than I had hoped.
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Do what makes ya happy. You will likely make better bows from woods that you have confidence in.
Jawge
I could not agree more. :)
Wise words