Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Goose Fletch on November 13, 2013, 03:45:00 pm
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Hi
I had a question which i couldnt shrug off for a little while as possibility of being right seemed like a really far fetch...did the ancients shoot over the thumb of the bow hand or the knuckle of their index finger?
ive coached kids in archery, little robin hoods if you will ::) and because of their small size, i had to provide them with little and basic bows that didnt have any obvious position for an arrow to rest. more often than not, their first instinct is to take the bow in one hand, the arrow in the other and "bring them together" as opposed to up and over to the opposite side (index finger side) so the arrow lands on the thumb side.
i was doing a history major until i switched to something else, so like many others, i know how misleading artwork may be in a historical context. it does beg the question though....take a look at this:
http://www.agincourtwarbows.com/G383729_282752168428324_100000806306327_705176_280100545_n.jpg (http://www.agincourtwarbows.com/G383729_282752168428324_100000806306327_705176_280100545_n.jpg)
ive done some tests, and tried shooting my longbow off the thumb....its not easy or pretty, but its not that hard. do you think some archers may have shot over the thumb? is there contrary or supporting evidence? i havent read all of aschams book, so maybe i'll go do that first. bear in mind, in japanese forms, a much longer bow is shot over the thumb, and asian/middle eastern styles include a style that shoot over the thumb too.
honk honk
goose
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We'll never know, will we? None of us were there ;)
Firstly - a huge amount of illustrations show the arrow on the "wrong" side of the bow from the 100 Years War period, so that's either artistic license, ill-informed scribes/artists or an accurate representation of a style we've either forgotten about or didn't realise was in use. If you believe the "every man was to shoot a bow" rule, it's unlikely that the artists were completely foreign to the basics of archery, so would be odd for them to get it wrong so often. Still, could easily be a simple mistake copied by other artists later on.
Secondly - shooting on the right side of the bow over the thumb affects the tension and release of the string. The reason it works for the Japanese archers is because they use a thumb-ring to release, which doesn't cause the string to pull inwards and disrupt the flight of the arrow.
If you try and shoot with a Mediterranean / 3 finger under release AND over the thumb, the fingers will drag the string backwards and twist the string to the right, clockwise. This will roll the arrow away from the side of the bow, either making the flight unpredictable or just causing the arrow to fall off the thumb. With the arrow on the left side of the bow, resting over the knuckle, the clockwise twist of the string pulls the arrow inwards, against the bow. The bow keeps it in place, and the release is consistent and predictable.
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My experience with a left handed person on a have-a-go day shows it just doesn't work!
I got confused by the whole thing and put the arrow on the usual side of the bow... at loose it leaped off sideways :-[
It was a rare occasion that I knew the arrows were actually matched to the bow too, as I was letting them use one of my Hazel primitives and my arrows (well it was a pretty young woman... I'm sure you understand! ::) )
Del
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We'll never know, will we? None of us were there ;)
Firstly - a huge amount of illustrations show the arrow on the "wrong" side of the bow from the 100 Years War period, so that's either artistic license, ill-informed scribes/artists or an accurate representation of a style we've either forgotten about or didn't realise was in use. If you believe the "every man was to shoot a bow" rule, it's unlikely that the artists were completely foreign to the basics of archery, so would be odd for them to get it wrong so often. Still, could easily be a simple mistake copied by other artists later on.
Secondly - shooting on the right side of the bow over the thumb affects the tension and release of the string. The reason it works for the Japanese archers is because they use a thumb-ring to release, which doesn't cause the string to pull inards and disrupt the flight of the arrow.
If you try and shoot with a Mediterranean / 3 finger under release AND over the thumb, the fingers will drag the string backwards and twist the string to the right, clockwise. This will roll the arrow away from the side of the bow, either making the flight unpredictable or just causing the arrow to fall off the thumb. With the arrow on the left side of the bow, resting over the knuckle, the clockwise twist of the string pulls the arrow inwards, against the bow. The bow keeps it in place, and the release is consistent and predictable.
I've been shooting off the thumb for a while now. I started doing that when I was a little kid with the bows and arrows I would make back then, I guess because I didn't have anybody to teach me otherwise. I would make little sapling bows and shoot unfletched arrows at leaves in the trees and what not. Now at age 27, it is still so ingrained in me that I just can't shake it, I try to shoot over the knuckle at least once a week or so. (I can do it with a shelf ok) But without a shelf it just seems awkward, it's mostly about the way I draw the bow with the arrow on the other side that seems weird to me, not the fact that the arrow is on the other side of the bow. I guess I am slowly learning both ways, but my point is shooting off the thumb is absolutely no problem for me, the only thing I would think is that if your fletches aren't perfect they can hurt your thumb sometimes. And I agree that the japanese yumi archers do just fine as well, I would think the japanese would be pretty methodological in their martial arts, and if there was a huge disadvantage to shooting off the thumb, I think it would be unlikely they would of keep doing it for so long. And yes, I know I look ridiculous when I shoot, ;D.
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Oh wow, that's cool. Never heard of anybody shooting trad bows off the thumb before! You're a freak. Get out.
Do you lean the bow over a fair bit to counter the clockwise pull of the release, or just shoot straight? I can't work out how it would work, but then if you've been doing it forever I can imagine it's no real issue for you! I guess it's like getting somebody who shoots 3 fingers under to use the Med loose, or somebody who shoots Gap/Point of Aim to shoot instinctive.
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You're a freak. Get out.
Oh I know it, ;D.
Do you lean the bow over a fair bit to counter the clockwise pull of the release, or just shoot straight?
I cant the bow to the side, but not so the arrow rests on my thumb, actually the other way. I might turn my thumb up a bit to hold the arrow though like a shelf, I would have to check. I don't think I do much differently when the arrow is on one side or the other, but it is kinda second nature so I might.
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We'll never know, will we? None of us were there ;)
Firstly - a huge amount of illustrations show the arrow on the "wrong" side of the bow from the 100 Years War period, so that's either artistic license, ill-informed scribes/artists or an accurate representation of a style we've either forgotten about or didn't realise was in use. If you believe the "every man was to shoot a bow" rule, it's unlikely that the artists were completely etely foreign to the basics of archery, so would be odd for them to get it wrong so often. Still, could easily be a simple mistake copied by other artists later on.
Secondly - shooting on the right side of the bow over the thumb affects the tension and release of the string. The reason it works for the Japanese archers is because they use a thumb-ring to release, which doesn't cause the string to pull inwards and disrupt the flight of the arrow.
If you try and shoot with a Mediterranean / 3 finger under release AND over the thumb, the fingers will drag the string backwards and twist the string to the right, clockwise. This will roll the arrow away from the side of the bow, either making the flight unpredictable or just causing the arrow to fall off the thumb. With the arrow on the left side of the bow, resting over the knuckle, the clockwise twist of the string pulls the arrow inwards, against the bow. The bow keeps it in place, and the release is consistent and predictable.
Ah, well now we've seen that it is infact doable and that some do it. Ive tried, and it works if you are carefully holding tension against the arrow as asian styles do.
What im getting at is that maybe these venerable bowmen were infact better trained than we may have thought. It would shave seconds off the time it takes to nock an arrow. would it redefine how devastating a volley would be in the last, heartstopping seconds before mounted knights approached the front lines? Maybe in fact excavated bows have markings on multiple places on either side at the arrow pass spot. Wishful thinking...
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Marks on either side of the bow might just indicate the existence of lefties. I swear we're real...
I think we view the past way too monolithically. If we have these variations in a world of mass media, coaching, and instructional texts online and in print, why would they not have existed historically?
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in TBB 4 there's a picture of Ishi shooting his bow and he has the arrow on the thumb side
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Ishi shot with a variation of a thumb draw though.
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Try using a thumb ring and shooting off your knuckle.
Try using the Mediterranean release shooting off your thumb.
Question answered! Unless you are some sort of freak..... ;)
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Try using a thumb ring and shooting off your knuckle.
Try using the Mediterranean release shooting off your thumb.
Question answered! Unless you are some sort of freak..... ;)
Oh I'm a freak alright. You guys have no idea, :). Completely un-bow related, but I also learned to hold a pencil before I was taught in school, as I liked to draw. And I "taught myself" that too... the wrong way of course. I do something I think a caveman would do and hold the pencil on the back of my thumb, don't know why. And no, I never learned the right way!! I have a permanent callus on the back of my thumb from it. I do everything back-asswards. lol Thank god I had people to help me learn to make bows, because I'm sure everyone can picture how that would of turned out if I taught myself!
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3558.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3558.jpg.html)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3557.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3557.jpg.html)
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb392/toomany7/DSCN3561.jpg) (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/toomany7/media/DSCN3561.jpg.html)
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Many of the Mongolian archers shoot thumb ring off the left side.
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I am not a warbow specialist but I think it would be counterinuitive to shoot over the thumb. If you dont want the string to hit your arm/bracer you twist your bow arm clockwise. The bow will move clockwise a bit too, when your shooting over you thumb your arrow will fall off.
I guess if your shooting a heavy weight longbow it is important that your form is good, twisting your bowarm clockwise makes sence to me.
Stefan
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I think this discusion raises the issue of variation
It's a natural thing and over the course of Medieval and Renaissance archery (hundreds of years) the one thing we should know for sure is, there was variation by the bucket load!
The one thing unfortunate about the "Mary Rose" finds is that we tend to use them to base most of our opinions on the subject.
Conformity was the one thing missing over this period, that is evident from the "Mary Rose" finds themselves such as different bow lengths, strength's and profiles. Different arrow lengths, woods and profiles even in the same sheaves!
I tried shooting off the thumb myself and found it strange but possible.
I suppose the main reason for arguments on this forum has been our dogged insistence on how we think things were done.
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I think this discusion raises the issue of variation
It's a natural thing and over the course of Medieval and Renaissance archery (hundreds of years) the one thing we should know for sure is, there was variation by the bucket load!
The one thing unfortunate about the "Mary Rose" finds is that we tend to use them to base most of our opinions on the subject.
Conformity was the one thing missing over this period, that is evident from the "Mary Rose" finds themselves such as different bow lengths, strength's and profiles. Different arrow lengths, woods and profiles even in the same sheaves!
I tried shooting off the thumb myself and found it strange but possible.
I suppose the main reason for arguments on this forum has been our dogged insistence on how we think things were done.
Yup. Viewing the past as monolithic is one of the huge problems of archaeology and history.
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My guess is some shot off the thumb some off the index who knows that seems more reasonable to me
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My guess is some shot off the thumb some off the index who knows that seems more reasonable to me
But if all threads were responded to in this way... there would be no forums!
The whole point of healthy discussion is to have a healthy discussion. Nobody knows, we can only speculate and give opinions based on some facts that somebody else has worked out. From these speculations, questions are either answered or not answered. Opinions are ignored or taken into consideration and the original question either ends up being solved to the asker's satisfaction, or more thought is required.
There's no point in
"so, did ancient archers use broadheads or bodkins?"
"They might have used both. Next question!"
Where's the fun in that? :) :o :P
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ok...here is something that is confusing me...and yes i am easily confused.
an arrow shot off the right hand knuckle would (due to archers paradox) bend outwards to clear the bow ???yes ??
Sooooooo..if an arrow from the same archer shot off the thumb instead..would the arrow flex the same way?. i.e. outward to the right ? If so then would not the arrow deflect off the left hand side of the bow ?.
orrrrr would the arrow naturally flex outwards to the left thereby clearing the bow....if so the why would it do this ?.
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If the string was exactly central, and the release was almost mechanically clean with no twist or bias to one side caused by the fingers, the arrow would be pushed out, away from the bow regardless what side it was on. Trouble is, a right handed archer will always twist the string clockwise at release, which works fine for the arrow resting on the knuckle but not the thumb.
A left handed archer faces the identical issue, as they twist the string anticlockwise but the arrow is on the right of the bow, still over the knuckle so it's not a problem.
If the right handed archer shot off the thumb (and wasn't a freak like TMK..) but released the same way, it's probably gonna cause the arrow to fly off as the string twisted, but if it didn't and everything stayed where it was, the arrow would likely behave as a mirror image to one shot off the knuckle. It would point off to the right to start with, the string would force the tail forward and the arrow would bend round the bow, just like the knuckle-shot one.
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The real issue is how the string slips off the fingers once they start to open.
The string will deflect left from the fingers of the right hand and to the right from the fingers of the left hand.
If you imagine the fingers of the right hand as a plate hinged along it's right edge, as the left edge (finger tips) starts to move towards the bow the string will be trying to slip off. With a flat plate this will happen once the plate has moved a few degrees, obviously with soft fingers and maybe a tab the string will bite int an bit, but it will still pull free early, say when the plate/fingers are at 45 degrees, this gives the deflection.
This is the big effect that those idiot target archers with centre shot bows confuse for 'Archers Pardox' when it is nothing to do with it.
So, a right hamded archer deflects the string (and thus the nock of the arrow) to the left, this tends to pivot or buckle the arrow about it's centre forcing the front end to the right against the bow, stopping it leaping off the hand...
Del
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For what its worth, I as a kid also used the over-thumb technique with my sapling bows and being a left hander, sometimes used my friends right hand recurve bows as the shelf was in the position I was used to, and the technique became quite accurate with practise. however since practising at a club I shoot now using the knuckle (and I have also changed to shoot right-handed as I am right-eye dominant).