Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: bowtarist on December 12, 2013, 03:40:11 pm
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After reading Pearly's post over and over...5 pages so far, Cleaning of the muzzle loader has come up. I have been shooting black powder since I was 14 years old in the mid-eighties and have always cleaned it the way I was taught back then. Never really been around any one else cleaning theirs too much so I was wondering how you all go about it?
Here's what I do. If in the field between shots I run a patch or two of powder solvent down the barrel and keep shooting, but when the day is through, I again run a patch or two of solvent down the barrel, then remove barrel, (I have used a small rubber hose hooked to the nipple too, but only on one gun that has several pins holding the barrel on, a Dixie Mountain Rifle) remove the nipple, sorry flinters, and submerge the butt end of barrel in boiling water and start running jag and patch up and down and changing patches til they run clean. Then I remove from water, dry off the hot barrel and run a couple patches of WD40 down there. I usually use the back of the last WD40 patch to wipe the gun barrel down, shoot a squirt of WD40 into the hole the nipple screws into and let it cool then return it to the stock. Before I load it again I'll pop a cap, then go ahead and load it. I ain't had a miss fire for a long time, but that's another story why that used to happen to me.
Wondering how some of you all clean your black powder rifles?
Thanks, dpgratz
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I have a flinter that is not pinned together, so it is easy to remove the barrel and drop it butt first into a bucket of hot water and dish soap. LOTSA patches up and down the barrel, so it pumps water in and out thru the touch hole. I often rinse with a teapot full of boiling water down the barrel so that the barrel ends up plenty warm. I then stand the barrel muzzle down on a paper towel while I dump out the soapy water. Couple of dry patches down the barrel and then while it is still hot, I stick a toothpick in the touchhole and shoot a 5 second blast of WD-40 down the pipe. One finger covers the muzzle and I tip it back and forth so the WD-40 picks up all the last of the water. Drain and rest muzzle down on another paper towel while I disassemble the lock and clean that with fresh hot water and soap. The lock parts get paper toweled dry and are blasted with WD-40 before assembly.
The whole mess sits for several hours to drain WD-40 off. Then I wipe everything down with deer fat on a rag, inside and out. Lastly, I hit several bearing points with beeswax and point a heatgun on it for a moment. Then, one last wipedown with a dry rag. Reassemble the works.
The flintlock that is pinned gets the traditional patches and solvent in-n-out x 1,000. Fortunately, that barrel has round-bottom rifling and comes clean after only about 40 patches.
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Before folks start talking about never touching the inside of a barrel with a solvent or detergent because it will "ruin the seasoning", think about this: Why don't they make cast iron frying pans out of steel? Because cast iron is porous and steel is not. They make steel pots and I challenge you to "season" one with fat or grease.
Once upon a time muzzleloaders (at that time they were just called guns) were made from wrought iron. THOSE barrels can be seasoned.
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I have used a few different methods. I use Dawn dish washing liquid in a bucket of hot water and swab like above. I've use Simple Green and a lot of patches, then run a lot of dry patches followed by a TC Bore Butter patch. When I go to load up, I'll run a dry patch, after that I'll snap 4 or 5 caps, I'll point the muzzle at a blade of grass a leaf just to see that air is moving out the end when snapping caps. Ed
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I don't own a flintlock or use black powder. For my cap locks I shoot a substitute like Triple Seven where only water is required for cleaning ;D. But I still like hot water and Dawn. Air hose after that with a nice coating of Bore Butter for storage.
I've read and be told by several gun smiths to never use WD40 on any firearm. So I'll stick with that advice for my MLs also.
Cleaning is pretty straight forward really. Where folks get in trouble with cap locks is busting caps to clear the nipple, load and hunt all week without discharging daily and cleaning. Or just busting caps in general and not cleaning. Spent caps are more corrosive than burnt powder. You can however, load, hunt all season without having to discharge your rifle daily and still be assured it'll fire when needed. Often I won't clear my rifle until just before next season. Never failed once to discharge. And I don't get any corrosion because I've not busted any caps or fired the rifle. Common sense and precautions is all that's needed...........Art
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Generally on mine in the field I go with the tried and true solvent soaked patch and run it through the barrel followed by a dry patch then continue shooting. At the end of the day I disassemble, remove the nipple (I've yet to finish my flinter so I've got my two rifles and two revolvers all cap) [if it's my revolvers I remove all the nipples from the cylinder] Then I flush the barrel [or cylinder and barrel] with hot water (Not quite boiling but super hot) then I spray some gun scrubber down the barrel [and cylinder] on the gun. After I've sprayed in the gun scrubber I let the barrel sit muzzle down on a rag for a few minutes. Once It's stopped dripping gunk filled oil solvent from the muzzle I give it another flush through with hot water. After it's been flushed out again I run a gun scrubber soaked swab in and out of the barrel to make sure the rifling is scrubbed out. Then it's time for another flush of hot water and hang the barrel [and cylinders] up to dry in front of the heater for about 15 minutes. After they're dried out I spray in a heavy coating of rem oil then sway with a dry patch to pick up excess oil.
Once that's done I wipe down the outside of the barrel with a grease cloth and re-assemble the barrel and stock. As for the lock I disassemble and give everything a good wipe down with gun scrubber followed by a good wipe down with a dry soft cloth, inspect the mainspring, hammer cup, and sear. before re-installing the lock I give it a light coating of oil. As for the trigger set for the lock I just give it a swabbing with cotton swabs and some oil to keep it lubricated and clean. The nipples I submerge in gun scrubber then rinse them down, dry them off, stick a tooth pick into the nipple then I give it a shot of oil and wipe it down to keep it nice and clean.
Yes it takes me about an hour to clean my black powder guns :P
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I use a half sink full of warm water. Stuff the barrell in with the nipple removed and run a wire brush through it several times while pouring a cup of water through. All the goo comes out. Then I run a few No 13 soaked patches through and get it clean. Then I run a few dry patches down. I follow that with one pass of gun oil and another dry swap. I dont leave oil on or in my gun. I honestly can count my misfires on one hand over 6-7 guns and 20 years. All those where on the range with a dirty a** gun.
If you really want to kick it up? Attach your cleaning rod to a cordless drill and wire brush. Run that up and down a few times and she will sparkle like new. Nothing gets left behind.
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I toothpick the touch hole, pour the barrel full of water(doesn't have to be hot), let it stand for 15-20 minutes, pull the toothpick, dump out the water, give the barrel one more filling to rinse it out, dry with 5 or 6 patches, give the barrel a squirt of WD-40, a few patches to dry out the WD-40, run a patch of PT Blaster down the bore, put the barrel muzzle down for a day or so, one more patch a week later to make sure everything is OK.
If I have been shooting a lot I found I need to scrape the fowling off the breech plug face with what else... a breech plug face scraper on my ramrod.
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My flintlock has a drilled vent hole, but some have a screw in vent. I stick a toothpick in the hole and fill with HOT water. I take a jag with a cloth patch on it and pull the toothpick as I shove the patch down the barrel. Face the vent hole down so ALL the hot water squirts out the vent hole. I have already removed the lock. Once the water is out I run the patch several times up and down the barrel. Plug the vent hole again and pour the barrel full of HOT water again. Keep doing it until the water and patch are clean. No sign of black. Last time the barrel set with HOT water for several minutes, then just pour it out the end ( makes barrel real hot) and sorta sling the water out (gently). Run several dry patches down the barrel to get it dry. Stand it with muzzle down for a while, then run a Wonder Lube patch down the barrel to lubricate it. Make sure you get a little lube in the vent hole. About 3-5 days later run another lightly lubed patch down the barrel to check for light rust. If done correctly no rust will be found. You can run a little added liquid soap the first couple barrel flushing, then clean water. I will check my BP guns occasionally just to run a lightly lubed patch.
I have heard WD-40 can get into the breech threads and set. Hard to get it out. When powder is loadeded it can draw or pull the oil out of the threads. Probably wouldn't keep the gun from firing unless a lot was in there, but it could change the load. Grease or tallow for flintlocks, no oil for me. If it was easy more folks would do it...Flintlocks are great!
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Pour boiling water down the barrel !
When the barrel is half full put thumb over the end and shake till the chunks come out
Then pour boiling water thru till its clean and to hot to hang on to, wipe her down and done unless you are putting away for extended time then oil her up with bore cleaner
The lock and other parts may need some fancier work ,follow what JW said already
If a gun has had triple seven or other counterfeits used in it I walk away from it shaking my head thinking what a waste ! Poor gun .
There seems to be no way to get that stuff out of a barrel even the wire brush on a drill wont touch it
I strongly recommend black powder only !!!
Guy
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Amen Guy, black powder is the way to go, easy cleaning, and if you DO NOT use petroleum grease or oils your barrel will become a season cast iron skillet and be very simple to clean with hot water.
Just IMO
DBar
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I usually use a clear vinyl tubing assembly with a rubber O-ring that clamps around the touch hole. I drop the weighted end of the tube in a small container holding warm water. I then scrub the barrel with a wet patch on a cleaning jag. On the up-stroke, the wet patch creates suction that draws the water up the tube and into the barrel. On the down-stroke, water is pushed back out. I alternate repetitions of using the wet patch and brass brush, changing the water a couple of times until my patches are clean. I then dry the barrel with patches, paying particular attention to pumping them near the breach to blow water out of the touch hole. (My guns have something of a patent breach, which is hard to access.)
After that, I lube/protect the bore. If I won't be shooting for a while, my strong preference is to use Break Free CLP. It's an excellent protectant that won't create a glaze or gum over time. Also, if I wasn't thorough enough with my warm water routine, my Break Free patches will remove it (and clearly show it). However, if I'm cleaning during hunting season, when I don't want to worry about getting all of the oil out of the bore before loading again, I lube with Lube 103, which is something along the lines of chap stick in consistency. I can simply load and shoot the next time out, with no barrel wiping needed. The Lube 103 is also a good patch lube and is perfectly adequate for storing guns for several weeks, but Break Free is much better for longer periods.
To clean the lock, I drop it in a container of warm water and clean with q-tips and patches. I shake, pat, and blow it dry, then lube also with Break Free, trying to avoid getting it in the flash pan. I also shake, pat, and blow excess oil off, then reassemble the lock onto the gun.
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For years I cleaned my muzzle loader as most have explained here. I guess in the past few years I have got lazy but a fellow primitive shoot showed me this and it the way I've been doing it the past three or four years and haven't seen any problems so far. I use a mixture of hydrogen peroxide , isopropyl alcohol, and Murphy's Wood oil soap in equal parts. Swab inside of barrel till clean, wipe down out side( wood and iron) store till next use. Cuts cleaning time in half.
Knapper
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Amen Guy, black powder is the way to go, easy cleaning, and if you DO NOT use petroleum grease or oils your barrel will become a season cast iron skillet and be very simple to clean with hot water.
Just IMO
DBar
I've tried to get mine seasoned like everyone talks about and I only shoot actual black powder through the guns I have but my rifle barrels won't season don't have any clue why. The revolvers won't season either but they're revolvers so they are more just for fun to shoot.
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The general consensus on all the M/L boards is that seasoning a barrel is a myth but a very persistant one that gets passed on generation to generation.
When I install a breech plug I put so much high temp ant-seize compound in the threads there is no way anything is going to gum up the threads. I use the same stuff on my tractors 3 point hitch turnbuckles, lasts for years even after being in the grime of tilling and bush hogging.
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Pour boiling water down the barrel !
When the barrel is half full put thumb over the end and shake till the chunks come out
Then pour boiling water thru till its clean and to hot to hang on to, wipe her down and done unless you are putting away for extended time then oil her up with bore cleaner
The lock and other parts may need some fancier work ,follow what JW said already
If a gun has had triple seven or other counterfeits used in it I walk away from it shaking my head thinking what a waste ! Poor gun .
There seems to be no way to get that stuff out of a barrel even the wire brush on a drill wont touch it
I strongly recommend black powder only !!!
Guy
Man, I don't know where you're getting your information about Triple Seven but I know it's not first hand. I've been shooting the powder exclusively for years now in three MLs and it's a dream to clean up. Wouldn't and won't use anything else. To each his own bud! Art
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Boiling hot water in a coffee can full of soapy water with the barrel resting touch hole down and a patch run up and down, pumping like JW. Then oil the crap out of everything that moves but just light oil inside of the barrel.
Art;
something I read just recently about synthetic BP. It degenerates rather quickly and should be replaced every year. I read this when they were doing penetration test of different powders after complaints about losing deer shooting the same powder, year to year.
I was a triple 7 man in my pistols and custom turkey gun. I went back to Black powder, and stuck with results I was used to.
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I hear a lot of folks complain about WD-40 and most of it arises from people trying to use it for something it is not intended to do. It's full name is Water Displacement Compound #40.
Designed for use in the nuclear warheads and their rockets. It was meant to be used to spray on circuits and other items that needed to be cleaned and kept dry. It would run off and carry the water with it as well as any contaminants. Almost no residue left behind.
Gunsmiths sometimes hate it because it has such low viscosity that it doesn't appear to stay behind, but looks like it runs off. Most of it also evaporates, leaving only a thin coat of mineral oil. But that is what I like about it for the barrel of my muzzleloaders. It picks up any water left in the barrel and runs out the muzzle when I let it rest pointed down on a cloth or paper towel. No residual water to rust, nothing to keep the swabbing of grease from coating the metal!
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JW, I have never heard that about WD 40 but it certainly sounds right to me. I am no expert nor have I studied the issue, so I am just giving my thoughts on WD 40 use in black powder. It does sound like WD 40 is thinner than water and will displace it as you say. Water will evaporate if the barrel is real hot and wiped with dry patches. WD 40, I suspect will not evaporate and will remain in cracks, threads and hard to reach places. That is what would seep into a load of powder. Water drying and gone, then a good lube made for black powder will not give that result. On a side note, I have been told by gunsmiths that WD40 can seep around a primer on a centerfield bullet and cause problems. Again I suspect because it so thin of an oil. I am just hesitant to use it on firearms, but I use it a lot on other things. Great stuff.
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WD-40 is 51% Stoddard Formula (a dry cleaning agent), 15% mineral oil, the rest is CO2 propellent and inert chemicals.
The dry cleaning solution is what causes it to creep into every possible crack and cranny. It is also a water solvent. It's highly evaporative, disappears very quickly. The thin film left behind is the mineral oil. If your threads in your breech absorb anything more than the tiniest amount of WD-40 then the gun needs to be re-breached immediately. Those threads are being eaten alive by the corrosion of the hot gases under pressure. Your breech is going to become a projectile. The breechplug is supposed to be sealed shoulder to shoulder with no exposed threading.
I have also heard that blackpowder is only about 30-35% efficient. The change in it's moisture content from season to season would have a greater effect on it's combustion than trace amounts of it contaminating the powder. Besides, at the temperature of the combustion in the barrel, the powder is going to burn the mineral oil, too.
On the other hand, I know a bench reloader that ruined a couple hundred handloads when a can of WD-40 punctured and seeped between primer and pocket, probably between bullet and casing as well! For water displacement, I love it. For a lube, there are better compounds with higher viscosity and better results.
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Boiling hot water in a coffee can full of soapy water with the barrel resting touch hole down and a patch run up and down, pumping like JW. Then oil the crap out of everything that moves but just light oil inside of the barrel.
Art;
something I read just recently about synthetic BP. It degenerates rather quickly and should be replaced every year. I read this when they were doing penetration test of different powders after complaints about losing deer shooting the same powder, year to year.
I was a triple 7 man in my pistols and custom turkey gun. I went back to Black powder, and stuck with results I was used to.
That's interesting Eddie. I've not noticed any accuracy problems. But I did chronograph last year's charge this past spring that I didn't get the opportunity to shoot anything with. It did shoot 100fps slower than a fresh load. That load was from my quick loads. Same powder, different environment I suppose you could say.
If I thought BP would shoot any better than what I using I would be using it. I not one of those that thinks things are written in stone. I'm going to use what gives me the best results with the least amount of fuss. Besides, with powder's availability today, I don't have any type that hangs around long enough to go bad. ;D
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Pour boiling water down the barrel !
When the barrel is half full put thumb over the end and shake till the chunks come out
Then pour boiling water thru till its clean and to hot to hang on to, wipe her down and done unless you are putting away for extended time then oil her up with bore cleaner
The lock and other parts may need some fancier work ,follow what JW said already
If a gun has had triple seven or other counterfeits used in it I walk away from it shaking my head thinking what a waste ! Poor gun .
There seems to be no way to get that stuff out of a barrel even the wire brush on a drill wont touch it
I strongly recommend black powder only !!!
Guy
Man, I don't know where you're getting your information about Triple Seven but I know it's not first hand. I've been shooting the powder exclusively for years now in three MLs and it's a dream to clean up. Wouldn't and won't use anything else. To each his own bud! Art
Art
I don't want to argue , cause I respect you and have no scientific studies to quote , but I try hard to not perpetuate rumors and just speak of my own experience with things . For me the result of using and seeing use of Triple seven have been not good .
If it works for you go for it, you must be doing something different than me and the folks around here .
What do you use to get it out of the barrel ?
Maybe I can pass the info on
I just remembered they still use it in the for effect canon at the fall festival ,not sure if it gets cleaned or not.
This is why we have forums so we can learn from one another !
Take care
Guy
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I do pretty much the same as listed here. I just remove the barrel,and and nipple, and get a metal bucket and fill it with hot soapy water, and do the pumping action, and then run a wire brush down the barrel a few times, and when a clean cloth comes out clean, I fill another bucket with hot clean water, and do the pumping action again, then pour hot water down the barrel, and then let it steam dry, and run a dry patch down the barrel, and then a patch with Rem oil, and wipe the barrel, and other parts lightly with Rem oil. As for WD 40, I don't use it for rust prevention, but maybe they changed the formula, as I have read in their ads long ago, that some of the multiple uses were rubbing it on arthritis areas, and such. It said there was nothing harmful in WD 40, as it was mostly fish oil. Now the cans carry a warning label that sates not to get it on the skin.
Wayne
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Easy clean-up is the no.1 selling point with this type of powder for me Guy. Not to mention the better accuracy. I can't ever remember having to use a brush with the Thompson or Pennsylvania. Only a time or two with the CVA. Perhaps it's the quality of the barrels. I keep my barrels in pristine condition so that may help also. Clean-up is pretty straight forward also. One thing I do that I haven't seen others mentioned is I dry everything with compressed air. Then lube well. Again, I use air to disperse the lube into every nook and cranny.
I'm not trying to sell anyone on Triple Seven. Being a cartridge reloader I know the key to best accuracy is finding the right powder/bullet combination. No different with Muzzleloaders. Once you have that, then it's all about being consistent with everything you do from there on out....Art
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Here's a little more reading if you're interested.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/triple_seven.htm
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Art
The post about the possibility of wd40 being changed makes me wonder if the Triple Seven may have changed , when I tried it was a brand new product and I may not have given them time to work the kinks out ! At the time pyrodex was not working out for folks and there was a scare about not being able to get hodgen black anymore ,there may have been a lot of changes since those days.
I may have misinformed folks ,sorry for that ,but I only knew how it went for me back then .
It has been a few days since then and I should just keep my mouth shut , you all carry on !
Guy
I see you posted while I was typing so I need to go see what you linked us to
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Hey, no problem Guy.
To show you how some guns are different, my son's CVA .50 cal. is an absolute tack driver using Pyrodex. He's lucky to keep his shot on the paper with the Triple Seven powder. Now his matched .54 cal extra barrel will almost one hole with the Triple Seven but despises the Pyrodex powder. But it took a lot of time and shooting to get our MLs shooting where we wanted them. Finding the right dia. patch, best powder and charge means burning a lot of powder sometimes. But that can be the fun part too............Art
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Yes I agree with the fun part !
I did find this part of your link interesting
" Triple Seven is harder to ignite than blackpowder or Pyrodex"
and then
" Only one rifle has even given me a "Triple Seven Crud Ring," of any note, and that is the .45 caliber G2 Contender. When spit-patching that rifle, it really does have a hard sugary "crunch" when nearing the breechplug, and I don't know why. It just takes a second spit-patch between shots"
Take care and keep having fun !
Guy
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If you read that again Guy you'll see that he's referring to the Triple Seven pellets being harder to ignite, not the powder. I don't remember if it's this article or another I read, but he tested something like fifty guns. So one crud ring isn't bad.............Art
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What I want to know is how he was able to get the Austin and Halleck flintlock riflr to go off using a charge of loose Triple Seven?
Triple Seven has an even higher ignition temp from Pyrodex from what I have been told, and Pyrodex virtually will not ignite from a flash in the pan of a flintlock. Did he use a duplex load of a little black powder down the barrel with a load of Triple Seven over top?
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What I want to know is how he was able to get the Austin and Halleck flintlock riflr to go off using a charge of loose Triple Seven?
Triple Seven has an even higher ignition temp from Pyrodex from what I have been told, and Pyrodex virtually will not ignite from a flash in the pan of a flintlock. Did he use a duplex load of a little black powder down the barrel with a load of Triple Seven over top?
"Triple Seven FFg loose powder, 90 grains, has given superb performance in an Austin & Halleck Flintlock "Mountain Rifle," producing 1-1/4" groups at 100 yards, shooting 360 grain Extreme sabots with XS Sights Ghost Ring sights. Goex FFFFg was used in the frizzen pan. The same Triple Seven FFg with 100 grain volumetric charges has given superb accuracy in a wide variety of tested rifles, including the Austin & Halleck 420, Thompson Contender G2, and Knight Disc Elite .50 caliber."
Seems to be some differences with ignition of the pellets vs the loose powder. No experience with the Triple Seven pellets myself. I've never had an ignition, or any other problems with this loose powder. Accuracy, velocity and ease of cleaning is superb. All this comes down to what works best for you, not me.............Art
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Yup, that is the very self-same article that I read.
"The ignition temperature for Pyrodex is approximately 740 degrees and the ignition temperature for Goex Pinnacle is around 700 degrees. As a result, for some guns, black powder substitutes are not an option. As noted in the article dealing with true black powder, Hodgdon recommends that a small amount of true black powder be used to help facilitate the ignition of both Pyrodex and Triple Seven in Flintlock guns. " -quoted from Muzzleloadingshotguns.com
No matter that 4F was placed in the pan, the flash is simply not hot enough to flash over the high ignition temp compounds such as Pyrodex or Triple Seven. I accidently charged a flintlock with Pyrodex once and eventually after trying every trick in the book, including grinding 4F powder into flour and pricking it into the touchhole with a wire, we had to drive b ack to town to get a ball puller to manually unload the gun. And it's not just me, I've contacted Hodgdon to ask about how to use Pyrodex in a flintlock and they simply said without a duplex load I was in for nothing but agony. (My community has a law against the sale of black powder within city limits, so I was looking for a replacement)
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Well JW, go outside the city limits and buy your black powder. >:D
I have no experience with flint locks, but I shoot with a group of guys that do and they all use black powder. Never entered my mind to ask 'em if they have tried the substitutes. Will keep that in mind next shoot.
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Well this thread too a little turn, but I got what I wanted out of it. I'll keep cleanin my ML's the way I always have. Seems pretty much the same as most of the rest of ya. Thanks for the input and time spent posting. I'll stick with black powder too, always have, and will till I can't get it any longer. I have a buddy who bought an CVS Electra, he shoots all those substitutes and pellets and all, he had a miss fire on the only deer he saw this year. :(
Thanks again, dpg
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I have a buddy who bought an CVS Electra, he shoots all those substitutes and pellets and all, he had a miss fire on the only deer he saw this year. :(
Thanks again, dpg
Don't matter what you are carrying or what you fed it's muzzle, that hurts!
Tell the poor guy to come over to my house and I will teach him muzzleloading basics on a flintlock and maybe we can correct the errors of his ways. I'll even feed him some backstraps off the grill. (I'm not rubbing it in, flaunting my good flintLUCK, just being hospitable >:D)