Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Archeress on December 27, 2013, 01:04:58 am
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hi all...I have a simple question..If you make a bow and it turns out at ...say...100 #.. Then at what point will it cease to be 100 # ? After you have shot it in ?. does it lose a few pounds in the intial settling in stages?. Or do compensate for the loss by making it a little heavier than what you wanted so it settles in at required weight?.
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oh...we are talking Alpine Yew here.
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I think the general consensus is 3 to 5 lbs with shooting in, although I don't think I really experience near that much after final sanding and all. I don't have any experience with yew though either. Do you have pictures? I would love to see some, ;D.
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I've never had any bows (including warbows) lose weight after 'settling in.'
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more of a curiosity than anything really..i havent got around to weighing it after i have now fully shot it in. just feels that my earlier efforts last week were somewhat feeble compared to what i am doing this week
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I don't have any hard data especially on warbows but I'd suggest that it taking on set is probably the best indicator of lost weight.
Having said that the weight loss is prob going to be about 5# with maybe a max of 10# if it takes on say 3" of set.
This opinion is based on the first ever Yew ELB I made which was only 70" long, and had a rather stiff grip due to a big knot. It ended up being over drawn and taking 3" of set, but it still shoots well and only lost about 7#
A full length warbow isn't over stressed and shouldn't loose much unless it has problems.
IMO Yew is Yew is YEW,,, it more about the actual stave than any man made national boundaries ;)
Del
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A yew is a yew is a yew...yep..this is true..
Anyway here are photos of my new Bow. courtesy of Ben Perkins (Barebow Archery. )..Cant fault it..or the man himself. great bow. 120 # @ 32. 2080 mm in length.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag67/archeress64/KELLY-PC/Pictures/photos/PHOTOS%20A-K/kellys%20bows%20and%20arrows/IMG_2163_zps2fab038d.jpg) (http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/archeress64/media/KELLY-PC/Pictures/photos/PHOTOS%20A-K/kellys%20bows%20and%20arrows/IMG_2163_zps2fab038d.jpg.html)
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag67/archeress64/KELLY-PC/Pictures/photos/PHOTOS%20A-K/kellys%20bows%20and%20arrows/IMG_2206_zpscad041d4.jpg) (http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/archeress64/media/KELLY-PC/Pictures/photos/PHOTOS%20A-K/kellys%20bows%20and%20arrows/IMG_2206_zpscad041d4.jpg.html)
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A close up of the belly.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag67/archeress64/KELLY-PC/Pictures/photos/PHOTOS%20A-K/kellys%20bows%20and%20arrows/closeupbelly_zpsc8c9536d.jpg) (http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/archeress64/media/KELLY-PC/Pictures/photos/PHOTOS%20A-K/kellys%20bows%20and%20arrows/closeupbelly_zpsc8c9536d.jpg.html)
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Nice :laugh:
It's irritatingly diffiscult to get good pics of loooong bows.
I find the sap wood just bleaches out in normal lighting and backgrounds (like grass) >:( ... I don't have the luxury of a studio...
You are a tease leaving that nock covered... you could at least give us boys a peek ::)
Del
BTW. I find it hard to keep up to fitness, I can train up to 100# (any more would kill my left elbow), but the fitness drops off so quick if I don't keep at it. Mind it's my 62nd birthday over this holiday (Bah... humbug >:( ;) )
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try this Del..this is 132# @32...the one i was struggling with but now am settling into it.
Better photos.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag67/archeress64/yew2_zpsc93c880e.jpg) (http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/archeress64/media/yew2_zpsc93c880e.jpg.html)
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag67/archeress64/YEW%20BOW/yew3_zps94c8aa64.jpg) (http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/archeress64/media/YEW%20BOW/yew3_zps94c8aa64.jpg.html)
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And here is the 120 without the nock cover.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag67/archeress64/IMG_2207_zpsaaad9f62.jpg) (http://s1299.photobucket.com/user/archeress64/media/IMG_2207_zpsaaad9f62.jpg.html)
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Cheers ;D
The Stratton has some nice character.
Del
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That's a beauty Kel, Ben's very talented!
I could be wrong, but I think it has more to do with when the weight comes on to begin with. If it has the typical qualities of a very good, well made IAY stave then the weight should come on fast, and feel heavier than it really is, and soften up as you roll the elbow down, unlike the alternative with lesser quality yew where the opposite is the case. The bows with high early weight tend to shift the weight fairly quickly as they get shot in, whereas the other type tend to stay roughly the same.
I believe that's one of the reasons the very high performance warbows are kept unbraced during a shoot, and only strung seconds before the shot and then unbraced straight after again. I guess the nice thing about laminated warbows is that they feel like the really good IAY staves but don't lose performance as quickly. Joe Gibbs told me at some point that he made a 160# Canadian yew warbow that lost 20# within a year or so.
How does it feel (not in draw weight but in terms of where the weight comes on) compared to Steve's bow? He's quite well known for having early weight that softens as it gets towards full draw.
There's nothing wrong with either type (although the early weight bows tend to perform with more punch) but I'm pretty sure that depending on the type, one bow will shoot in and feel softer than the other.
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Well Wills..the stratton bow looks damned amazing..has a great feel..feels well balanced and is an absolute B**** to shoot. I shall explain...i asked for a 115 # @ 32..I had to weigh it and did so with two different scales. Also once with bow on top and string being drawn down and also other way around. Initially i got 132 #..i was gobsmacked. so i have been working it in last few months and it is currently at 127#. Without getting into politics i can simply say that it is hard yakka to pull this Brutus.
Early stack is hard..
As for the Perkins stave..it is an easy draw. I weighed it 1 hour ago and it was 119 pound. Could be my scales. who knows..dont really care..I have 2 IAY bows and i feel blessed. So..it is an easier draw and sort of remains easy till the last couple inches really. Though having said that i am drawing it to almost 30 inches. ..I sort of keep forgetting im a chicky LOL..so i am doing well. This bow is a good stepping stone to the stratton bow.
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Yup early weight is a real pain, but the performance makes it worthwhile! The trouble with the really dense IAY bows (providing they're made properly of course!) is that you can't judge how much progress you're making if you can't get the elbow up and back due to the early weight - it makes it a real challenge! Just from looking at your photos you can see that Ben's bow is much less dense than Steve's - you almost can't see any heartwood rings on that Stratton bow it's so tight. I'm sure Steve also keeps a good few tricks up his sleeve as well when it comes to making high performance bows, so his really top bows do stack HARD very early, more so than most other bowyers' work.
I'm very envious of you, I have to say. You have the ideal setup to get onto those monster Stratton bows, by using that beautiful new one. Just think - you have a "training" bow made from Italian yew...! I need to get back to Steve at some point and get myself a really peachy Italian stave.
G'luck with the progress, I reckon you'll be comfortable with Ben's bow pretty quickly, and should stand you in good stead for Steve's.
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thanks Wills...yes the early stack is damned hard and i agree that my progress was slow because i coouldnt get the elbow back sufficiently to give the rest of it a yank. Was like trying to push over a brick wall. Though i did have the stratton bow back to eye level..that was ll i coould muster. a couple weeks and the bow will come out to play...lets see what video tells us then.
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I am totally confused here, what is "early stack"? ;D The stacking I know refers to the dramatic increase in draw weight near the full draw, making a bow that is not pleasant to draw. A bow with no stack usually has higher early draw weight, but a smoother force draw curve out toward the end, making an easier bow to draw. Haven't read to much, I will go back and re-read the thread though...
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I am totally confused here, what is "early stack"? ;D The stacking I know refers to the dramatic increase in draw weight near the full draw, making a bow that is not pleasant to draw. A bow with no stack usually has higher early draw weight, but a smoother force draw curve out toward the end, making an easier bow to draw. Haven't read to much, I will go back and re-read the thread though...
I'm glad it's not just me...
Often with a warbow it's the archer who is 'stacking' not the bow!
I plotted a force draw curve for the 130# Self Yew warbow I just made and it was remarkably linear, which is how it should be on a long bow with long working limbs.
Del
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Basically, you get two types (bear with me, because I don't know the physics/mechanics behind this, just the feel!)
Type A ) Feels incredibly hard to pull to begin with, and really makes it difficult to get a full warbow draw, as it relies heavily on wrist tendons and arm strength to get the string back far enough for the back and shoulder muscles to start working as the elbow comes down. At this point, the weight softens and the roll-back to full 32" comes relatively easily
Type B ) Basically the opposite, more well-known as "stacking" - nice and soft and linear to begin with, easy to get to around 20" or so of draw, but starts to stiffen up and feel heavier and heavier as you get towards the end, where the elbow comes down.
I think B ) is actually "stacking" whereas A ) is just... high performance warbow, I guess. With bow A ) you get a HUGE surge and kick of power as the string gets to brace height, but with bow B ) you feel it all at the beginning, and it softens as it comes back to brace height. Bow A ) is better for flight and distance stuff, and is the "holy grail" of a big bow.
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Basically, you get two types (bear with me, because I don't know the physics/mechanics behind this, just the feel!)
Type A ) Feels incredibly hard to pull to begin with, and really makes it difficult to get a full warbow draw, as it relies heavily on wrist tendons and arm strength to get the string back far enough for the back and shoulder muscles to start working as the elbow comes down. At this point, the weight softens and the roll-back to full 32" comes relatively easily
Type B ) Basically the opposite, more well-known as "stacking" - nice and soft and linear to begin with, easy to get to around 20" or so of draw, but starts to stiffen up and feel heavier and heavier as you get towards the end, where the elbow comes down.
I think B ) is actually "stacking" whereas A ) is just... high performance warbow, I guess. With bow A ) you get a HUGE surge and kick of power as the string gets to brace height, but with bow B ) you feel it all at the beginning, and it softens as it comes back to brace height. Bow A ) is better for flight and distance stuff, and is the "holy grail" of a big bow.
Okee dokey, I gotcha now. In my opinion, I think the holy grail of bows shoots like a compound bow, with hella early draw weight, and then randomly drops weight or so at fulldraw so it is easy to hold drawn. I have made some manchu style bows that feel like that when you draw them when the string comes off the string bridges at full draw, although I know it can't possibly be lowering in draw weight, I mean it just feels like that. And then rockets an arrow upon release, :).
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That yew is some rule breaking wood. Stratton's bow has knots right on the edge of the limb, for crying out loud. Isn't that supposed to be one of the most NO-NO of NO-NO's? But it's yew and yew is like honey badger, it just don't give a da..well, you know.
Thanks for taking it off for the pics, Kel. Much appreciated over here in chilly South Dakota. It's so cold here in South Dakota lately that our longbows are shrivelled up into horsebows.
Is it my imagination, or does the Stratton have whiter sapwood than the other?
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Steve himself posted a thread in this section a while ago showing a stunning Mary Rose replica with knots all over it, many of them right on the edges. As long as the wood is good quality enough the knots won't be an issue at all, and you can more or less pretend they're not even there.
The very first bow I ever made was a yew longbow, came out around 50# I think (I posted it on here somewhere!) and I had never read/heard about how to treat knots so I ignored them all and there's a huge manky one right on the edge of one limb, and it's still shooting today! Now that either shows that yew is magical, or that ignorance is bliss and I got lucky... I think it's probably the latter...!
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Thanks for taking it off for the pics, Kel. Much appreciated over here in chilly South Dakota. It's so cold here in South Dakota lately that our longbows are shrivelled up into horsebows.
;D
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Your welcome...btw..my stratton yew has 8 knots in it.
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Your welcome...btw..my stratton yew has 8 knots in it.
We all appreciate those lovely knotty bow photos.
With the ranges typically shot by yew war bow shooters, I am thinking it would be an interesting video to have you come out here to South Dakota for an antelope hunt. If you can get over here, I can arrange the rest! (antelope season is early in the fall, much more clement weather, if you are worried about that)
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How's this for a knot on the edge? No problem for yew... ;)
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vERY nOICE....Yew bewdy.
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How's this for a knot on the edge? No problem for yew... ;)
Yes but it's right at the tip where the stress is much lower than further towards the grip. The tips on most bows are actually overbuilt when you look at the amount of stress there...and I don't just mean 3/4 wide tips!
Yew isn't magical...i've had yew bows fail at knots just like any other wood. It very much depends on the particular stave and the particular knot. Not all knots are created equal ;)
Early stack is not stack....it's high early weight because the wood hasn't been overstrained and is therefore still springy. Bows with set are easy to draw intially. Straight or reflexed bows give you the early weight.
My advice if you are struggling is to drop your weight to a point that is comfortable for at least a handfull of shots or else injury is around the corner....sure as eggs is eggs. Better to build up very slowly - I wouldn't jump bow weight by more than 5 - 8 lbs at a time.
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Early stack is not stack....it's high early weight because the wood hasn't been overstrained and is therefore still springy. Bows with set are easy to draw intially. Straight or reflexed bows give you the early weight.
Cheers for that Mike! Knew "Stack" was the wrong term really, but didn't know how else to describe it. So it really is down to very good tillering and minimising set that gives you the high performance bows - sounds pretty darn obvious now!
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How's this for a knot on the edge? No problem for yew... ;)
Yes but it's right at the tip where the stress is much lower than further towards the grip. The tips on most bows are actually overbuilt when you look at the amount of stress there...and I don't just mean 3/4 wide tips!
Yew isn't magical...i've had yew bows fail at knots just like any other wood. It very much depends on the particular stave and the particular knot. Not all knots are created equal ;)
Early stack is not stack....it's high early weight because the wood hasn't been overstrained and is therefore still springy. Bows with set are easy to draw intially. Straight or reflexed bows give you the early weight.
My advice if you are struggling is to drop your weight to a point that is comfortable for at least a handfull of shots or else injury is around the corner....sure as eggs is eggs. Better to build up very slowly - I wouldn't jump bow weight by more than 5 - 8 lbs at a time.
And that's exactly why I laid out the bow with the edge knot as close to the tip as possible. Being a warbow, however, I'm surprised it held up. I certainly worry less about knots in yew than any other wood.
I agree with the 'stack' term. Strong early draw weight is a good sign of any well made bow, with low set and minimal stress due to proper tiller. 'Stack' is the inability of wood to bend any further, and can be caused by several factors.