Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Around the Campfire => Topic started by: iowabow on January 23, 2014, 07:48:00 am
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Been reading a lot on copper and stone tools. The question for me that is interesting is....so there is copper....why are you (native people from the past) making stone celts. This is fun to think about and why did the design of the axe change. Did copper influence stone tool design? How many hours would it take to make a copper celt V.S stone. Which will last longer? How much of an advantage is a copper celt during that time period? What about maintaining an edge which one requires more of your time? Can a copper celt be easily replaced if lost or broken? Why use stone tools to mine copper is a fun one to think about.
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Is it possible that only the weathy(or in ownership of a worthy trade item) could afford copper?
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I was thinking along the same lines as Bryce...copper was basically for the wealthy or the individuals that were higher status. Oetzi (the Iceman from Austria/Italy border) carried a copper ax with him and it is thought to be a status symbol. I heard someone say that it took them over 200 hours to drill a hole through a stone celt they were making, and then you have the finishing to do on top of that. With copper, I think it would depend alot on your location (if you can get the raw materials) and knowledge to extract the material, then use it. Oetzi's copper ax set the time lline for copper use back I believe at least 1000 years ( i will have to check and make sure).
I have never read anyting about sharpening the copper or anything about the care of it.
To me this is something really cool to think about and discuss!
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Copper is quite scarce compared to stone. Copper is a soft metal and doesn't hold an edge well. It takes a lot more "technology" to produce items from copper. A stone celt is basically a smooth riverstone of the right shape with the end knapped to form a sharp edge. Basically a disposable tool. If you are talking about a stone axe , now that's a different story.
This will likely get moved to the knapping section or primitive skills. Maybe around the campfire. I'm sure Patrick Blank will be able to shed some light on this topic. Hopefully he will chime in..
There is a video on Youtube where they did some experimental archeology to reproduce Otzi's axe. Very interresting conclusions.
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TBB4 has a whole chapter on copper adzes
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A copper celt will not break, crack, or chip and cannot be damaged by normal fires. IMO, it was used when there was lot of chopping to do, or when they needed a reliable weapon for fighting.
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What are the reasons for chopping trees? Kind of a waste of time for farming I think. So maybe to acquire fresh wood but why? Bug free if dried right?
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Lodge poles and wigwam frames were made from freshly cut trees and saplings. Canoe frames also. And dugouts required lots of chopping...
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Around here ,the" woodland" Indians made palisades around their towns with sharpened logs . They would also need fire wood and needed to clear land for their crops. Most of their everyday items were made from wood, from handles for tools to pack frames , snowshoes , raised sleeping platforms , long houses ........ on and on.
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Alright this is real great input guys. If we were them what would you guy guess was used to cut what? lets first work with just chert and "stone" cutting tools. For example in your estimation "I think this size and type of wood was cut with _____"
My thought here is to source you guys for ideas that I might not other wise come up with. See I cut hundreds of trees every year at this time. I was thinking of making and testing out some of your ideas with my next years cutting. I could make these tools and cut a bunch of wood and just see what the effect of this kinda of tool is over a number of trees. I marked yesterday over a hundred that I need to cut this year and next year will be the same. It could be fun for our group or just me to test out how a tool works over time. I have seen a lot of videos showing a guy making a tool and chopping a tree but never a group of trees. The college has microscopes that can photograph an edge on a tool then we could see what happens over time.
We are going to have to think about what we really want to know chert VS stone or Stone VS copper and the list goes on. Most of my trees are 10" and under.
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4" long stone blades or bifaces to cut arrow shoots. 6" diameter spalls with one sharp edge to cut bow staves or branches less than 3" in diameter. Ground stone celts to cut trees 3" to 5" in diameter.
I steal the rest from the beavers. >:D
---http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Beaver-cut-Trees.jpg
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That's a tasty looking beaver. Would make a nice quiver as well.
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Ahhhh, God's little chainsaws!
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Flintknappers .com has quite a bit of information on stone axes and it reads like he has used the stone axes a lot. It says he cut over 300 trees with one and another he used on over 3500 limbs and trees. I do not know anything about the guy that posted the information, but might be some good background reading. Look under the heading 'Axe me no questions'...
Nothing on there tho about copper axes.
Neal
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Flintknappers .com has quite a bit of information on stone axes and it reads like he has used the stone axes a lot. It says he cut over 300 trees with one and another he used on over 3500 limbs and trees. I do not know anything about the guy that posted the information, but might be some good background reading. Look under the heading 'Axe me no questions'...
Nothing on there tho about copper axes.
Neal
wow thank you for the info sounds good.
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Met Larry at the devil hole knappin. 3000 trees cut no sharpening the stone. Not sure I could do that with iron.
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Where exactly is the info on flinknappers.com?
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When the Eastern Cherokees made dugout canoes from large trees they use fire to bring them down. They would use wet plant material wrapped around the tree above the fire to fell the tree. They used fire and stone axes to hollow out the canoe. They also used blow guns to hunt with. In the mountains here there are always lots of blow downs, especially lodge pole pines. The sheep eaters made tepee shaped lodges out of the blow downs. I can tell you this I would hate to trade my chain saw for a copper axe! Joe
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Jackcrafty, it is website by Larry K. , and scroll about 2/3 the way down the page under the heading 'Axe me no questions' on the left side of the page.
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There was no smelting technology that the Mississippian cultures had that we know of and I think that's why no large amount copper axes in the record. And the ones we do see are rather thin compared to Otzi's. Even if it is work hardened, there would be a chance that it would either snap or greatly bend in use. A stone axe wouldn't do that. The durability of ground stone axes is, in my humble opinion, why there were so many more compared to the copper axes.
Now, as to which I would take, ground stone axe all the way. It may take a bit longer to make but it is more durable when in the long run.
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I think a copper axe is better if you follow logic in the following manner.
If I want to communicate very fast over a long distance my cell phone is clearly better than a man on a horse carrying a note. If you owned a cell phone 200 years ago it would be of little value for communication. So an advanced technology without other key factors is just a curiosity. In order for a culture to adopt a technology in exchange for the old there are a few things that need to be factored in to the equation. So just because you can make a celt from copper is not really the issue. See copper is better but only with other parts of the supporting equation.
Here are a couple thoughts about why we see stone tools when cooper is being mined
1. Cost for people that live great distances from source of material would be high
2. Lack of good transportation networks for materials or products
3. Regular availability and predictable value
4. Time required to mine, process, produce, and maintain the tool doesn't provide enough of an efficiency to cause you to discard your stone tools
5. Once the issues of economy are addressed then a culture adopts copper over stone.
A modern mind set is locked in the concept of disposable as a form of efficiency. Take for example a Bic lighter great tool and very useful as a means to creating a fire. When the tool stops working you buy another. The problem is when it is no longer available then what? If the system connected to production is disrupted the tool is no longer a good idea. If "supplying" is difficult the eficiency, economy, and predictability will remain with the stone tool even though the copper has superior technical advantages.
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Even by that logic, stone still would be better than Copper because of availability and thus used more regularly as we see in the archaeological record. If that were not the case, then we would see copper axes much more than we do and other metal industries as well (Bronze if tin as available, iron and so on) as had happened in Europe and Asia. But we do not see that.
Smelting makes copper more available due to not having to find just raw nuggets of the stuff, other minerals that are derivatives of copper can be used as we see in Europe earlier in time. With out that bit of technology, copper is relegated as a source of fascination and value to the native people of North America. Also, with smelting, casting becomes a technique used to make far more robust tools as we see in Otzi's copper axe and others from the Chalcolithic of Europe.
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Well I think we agree. Stone would have be considered more useful based on my logic. I believe I'm agreeing with you in my last sentence. I do agree with your points. My point was like yours about the transportation and availability issue.
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I think so.
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Meet Larry Kinsella.
---www.flintknapper.com
(I disabled the direct link - JackCrafty)
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Here as well https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGpvWtBOzEj0Qhle2eQsNlw
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Ok looks totally easy for making a bow from ash with stone tools. A short time to chop, simple bark peel then split into staves and shape into bows. I see that 4 bows or more from one log. So 4-5 people working on a log for staves makes light work that other wise seems like a daunting task. No wonder copper had a hard time competing.
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Yep.