Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Thesquirrelslinger on February 01, 2014, 02:17:14 pm

Title: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Thesquirrelslinger on February 01, 2014, 02:17:14 pm
so I have the opportunity to make a workbench...
here is the only problem- Most of the workbenches I have seen don't seem to be able to handle the stress of making a bow...
or they move too much for precise work.
I do have limits on lumber- not much.
I am thinking a LOT of weight on it.
Such as... a 3 layer top of 1" plywood....
It does need to be strong.
Massively so.
So where is the best location for the vice on the workbench?
its a conventional vice-
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQVj0Jj81o0Sn8TOrlHBJJ8u94T6y879EvdOokGHOBFFlEU6hBm5Q)
I am thinking a corner.
I do use a vice for roughing out(drawknife and occasionally hatchet).
I am going to bolt it down with either wood screws or maybe some bolts.
Good enough?
my current workbench is a ancient(actually only a little over 100 yrs old) woodworker's bench made from oak. it weighs around a couple hundred pounds with all the stuff I have on it(it has a very good little rack that I put staves on)... I can't move it. neither can dad.
it has a woodworkers vice attached to the side.
Great except for tillering.
It doesn't move, even when chopping staves.
What would be the minmium weight for such a bench, roughly 5 feet by 2.5 feet top... so it won't move much(it is freestanding) when it is on smooth concrete flooring?
I am making this for a bowmaking friend of mine.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: George Tsoukalas on February 01, 2014, 02:56:36 pm
My workbench is anchored to the floor so it does not move. My bowbench is clamped to it in a wood vice for the heavy wood removal. Pretty steady.

When the heavy wood removal is done, I remove the bench for the final tillering. Back to the wood vice where I calm my rope and pulley to check tiller.

BTW the vice is securely clamped to the workbench and reinforced with plywood. It sheared off once before I really took the time to clamp it securely.

The 2 x 4 of the rope and pulley is clamped to a ceiling joist up top so it does not move around.

This unit is removable so i can use my work space for other purposes.

That's the way I do it. Check my site for a picture.

http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/directions.html

Jawge

Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Dan K on February 01, 2014, 03:06:14 pm
I have a book on the history of the workbench. I learned the workbench is one of the oldest tools known to mankind. Over the years it has been altered many many times to serve the purpose of the worker. I to have a woodworkers bench that dates back at least 100 years. I would recommend mounting your vice on to a T platform that you can secure in the vice on your workbench when you need it. This makes it portable so you can move it out-of-the-way if needed.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: bow101 on February 01, 2014, 03:06:55 pm
Mine is very basic built from 2x4 and 2x6.  Is is secured to the wall with a few wood screws in the corner of the garage.  The floor is cement.
I have a vice exactly as shown in the photo, it broke about 4 months ago.  THe base near the swivel cracked, so I jerry rigged it . It still works but then again I used it for clamping car parts as well.
I would spend the extra money and buy a heavier vice. And you will have to bolt it down.
Don't waste moeny on plywood, I just topped of the bench with 1/4" MDF. Glue it and screw it, call it a day.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Pat B on February 01, 2014, 05:15:57 pm
My work bench has a 2x4 frame and 3/4" plywood top and mid shelf. I have it bolted to the basement block wall. The vice(like the one posted) is bolted to the right front corner of the bench. I use this vice for removing bark, etc. and until I reach floor tiller stage then I use my Stave Master for tillering.
 The ideal(IMO) way to set up a vice is mounted to a post so you can work 360 degrees around it. You have to have the post solidly anchored.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Thesquirrelslinger on February 01, 2014, 05:55:31 pm
I have a book on the history of the workbench. I learned the workbench is one of the oldest tools known to mankind. Over the years it has been altered many many times to serve the purpose of the worker. I to have a woodworkers bench that dates back at least 100 years. I would recommend mounting your vice on to a T platform that you can secure in the vice on your workbench when you need it. This makes it portable so you can move it out-of-the-way if needed.
This is for a friend of mine. He is also a bowmaker, and wants to be able to easily work on bows without coming to my house.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Thesquirrelslinger on February 01, 2014, 05:58:22 pm
Mine is very basic built from 2x4 and 2x6.  Is is secured to the wall with a few wood screws in the corner of the garage.  The floor is cement.
I have a vice exactly as shown in the photo, it broke about 4 months ago.  THe base near the swivel cracked, so I jerry rigged it . It still works but then again I used it for clamping car parts as well.
I would spend the extra money and buy a heavier vice. And you will have to bolt it down.
Don't waste moeny on plywood, I just topped of the bench with 1/4" MDF. Glue it and screw it, call it a day.
thanks.
This is not the actual vice I have.
I am not worried about breaking the vice because it is over 40 years old.
Back when stuff was built to last.
Thanks!

Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Crogacht on February 01, 2014, 07:24:26 pm
I was planning on building my bench this weekend, but got sick, so it will have to wait.

I decided building a bench heavy enough to remain still under its own weigh would cost too much, so I'm going to anchor it to the concrete floor in the garage. Here is a picture of the design. It's about 35 inches high, 35 inches wide and 70 inches long. Legs are 4 inch x 4 inch posts, and the rails are rebated into the legs etc. The benchtop is solid and about 2 inches thick.

I got a 6 inch cast steel swivel engineers vice, it's an old one made in France and weighs over 60 lb.

I'm going to bolt it to the front right corner of the bench, as near to the leg as I can get it. But the bench is going to be in the middle of the floor, so I'll be able to swivel the vice around and work on the wood along the short side of the bench also. I was planning on adding some kind of tillering tree to the bench, but I've found a place to bolt it to the wall, so that will work much better.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: ajooter on February 01, 2014, 08:47:25 pm
My father and I are currently making a bench for myself.  I will post picks when done.  So far it looks great....almost too nice to use.  It will be very heavy when completed.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: lostarrow on February 01, 2014, 10:17:04 pm
Ever tried a shave horse? Once you have you may not go back. Smaller , quicker ,uses  less lumber holds work securely but is much quicker to adjust the position of the stave. More gentle on finished surfaces ,holds at odd angles.  the list of benefits goes on and on. You could even pull it outside easily if you wanted to spend the day outside. Try that with your work bench. The whole thing can be built for less than the cost of the vice you have pictured.
   Just another option to consider.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Thesquirrelslinger on February 01, 2014, 10:49:57 pm
Ever tried a shave horse? Once you have you may not go back. Smaller , quicker ,uses  less lumber holds work securely but is much quicker to adjust the position of the stave. More gentle on finished surfaces ,holds at odd angles.  the list of benefits goes on and on. You could even pull it outside easily if you wanted to spend the day outside. Try that with your work bench. The whole thing can be built for less than the cost of the vice you have pictured.
   Just another option to consider.
I already have the vice.
If I can hew some lumber..
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Gaust on February 01, 2014, 11:07:30 pm
If you use a solid-core door, 3' x 6'-8" x 1 3/4" thick, atop a 2x4 frame, it should be heavy enough.  Build it 36" height, and add a 1" thick plywood shelf at the bottom, supporting it with a 2x4 frame also.   Drill holes at the all corners to bolt the heavy-duty vice - all four corners so you can move it around when you need to.  At one leg, you may want to build a removable 6' tillering tree.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: NeolithicMan on February 02, 2014, 01:35:58 am
Squirrelslinger, I have that same vice you showed a picture of and built a new work bench not long ago. I built a decking frame out of 12" wide pine boards and then topped it with more 12" pine. built it into wall studs for the back and 4x4 legs in the front. put the vice on a corner about 2 1/2" in from the edges, no problems with movement what so ever. I would pit up a picture but you would just see a massive pile of half made bows, knives and other yet to be finished projects!
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: adb on February 02, 2014, 02:23:42 am
I don't use a workbench for bow making or tillering. I have a work bench, but for tillering, I made a pedestal vice.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Del the cat on February 02, 2014, 05:22:51 am
Vice on the right front edge. And a moveable '3rd hand' clamped to the left front edge.
Note use of old woolen carpet on the vice and the '3rd hand' to protect bow.
Del
BTW. That's a Yew Warbow 84" ntn 100# @31"  :laugh:
Just noticed the Vice has 'No 3' on it, I'm damned if I know where my other two are ;)
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: DuBois on February 02, 2014, 09:55:01 am
Cool Del, I see my trade bow is coming allong nicely  ;) I can hardly wait.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: IdahoMatt on February 02, 2014, 09:59:09 am
Another way to get the weight up on a bench I put a couple bags of ready mix concrete on the bottom shelf you could use mortar mix too. The bags are usually 80 lbs. if you built another shelf on top of those, presto.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: NeolithicMan on February 02, 2014, 10:32:37 am
adb: That is so simple and awesome! I saw that and slapped my forehead with a "DUH" that is a great way to move around a bow and get any angle you need to work at. gotta do that this spring or summer
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: DuBois on February 02, 2014, 10:48:49 am
I like that set up you got there Del and adb, I like that as well. I gotta revise my shop this spring.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Don Case on February 02, 2014, 01:52:03 pm
I don't use a workbench for bow making or tillering. I have a work bench, but for tillering, I made a pedestal vice.

How deeply(and how) did you anchor that into the concrete? I had a grinder on a pedestal and it broke the concrete.
Don
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Pat B on February 02, 2014, 01:54:18 pm
I doubt you'll be able to secure a bow working bench with just weight. I built my bench and bolted it into the block wall of my basement and already pulled a bolt out and loosened the others removing bark and sapwood from osage staves.  :o
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Thesquirrelslinger on February 02, 2014, 01:59:38 pm
I doubt you'll be able to secure a bow working bench with just weight. I built my bench and bolted it into the block wall of my basement and already pulled a bolt out and loosened the others removing bark and sapwood from osage staves.  :o
but....... thats osage....
lol
Most of this work will be ERC.
Thanks for the heads up.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: mikekeswick on February 02, 2014, 02:17:33 pm
The post mounted vice is a great set-up.
As for a normal bench/vice weight is obviously useful but if you build plenty of triangles into the design, bolt it to the loor on all four legs and also if possible position it in the corner of the building so that you can also bolt it to the walls, side and back with angle brackets and good expansion bolts....that sucker just isn't moving.
When you are roughing stuff out with a drawknife you need to be illiminating any chance of 'play' devolping from the get go.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: lostarrow on February 02, 2014, 08:48:51 pm
Adam, can you come clean my shop for me? ;D
Del, I'll check the vices I have  to see if they are #1 and/ or #2

 Squirrelslinger : I know you have the vice already, I was just saying the materials for a shave horse will cost  around $40   likely less than what you will pay for the material for a bench. Your call , of course.  Building a sturdy work bench that will hold up to the sideways stress of using a draw knife  can be a lot of work . Bolting it to the wall is the best suggestion. I have one bench bolted to the wall , and the  other  doubles as an out feed for the tablesaw. The saw it's bolted to weighs about 700lbs, so it's not moving. Adjustable legs are very helpful especially on concrete floors. Otherwise you will be shimming  but I've always found the damn things move eventually.
  Good luck on what ever you choose. Let us know. You've had lots of good suggestions.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Thesquirrelslinger on February 02, 2014, 09:31:11 pm
Adam, can you come clean my shop for me? ;D
Del, I'll check the vices I have  to see if they are #1 and/ or #2

 Squirrelslinger : I know you have the vice already, I was just saying the materials for a shave horse will cost  around $40   likely less than what you will pay for the material for a bench. Your call , of course.  Building a sturdy work bench that will hold up to the sideways stress of using a draw knife  can be a lot of work . Bolting it to the wall is the best suggestion. I have one bench bolted to the wall , and the  other  doubles as an out feed for the tablesaw. The saw it's bolted to weighs about 700lbs, so it's not moving. Adjustable legs are very helpful especially on concrete floors. Otherwise you will be shimming  but I've always found the damn things move eventually.
  Good luck on what ever you choose. Let us know. You've had lots of good suggestions.
I see your point. I appreciate the advice.
I thought you thought that I had not bought the vice... I might be able to make a shaving horse.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: dwardo on February 03, 2014, 07:37:19 am
In the UK a cheap option for the worktop its self is kitchen work tops. If you go to a kitchen fitting company and ask them for any seconds they have they are tough and cheap. They cant sell the top if there is s scratch on it but its perfect for our purpose.

Mine has a pine wood frame that has more gorrilla glue, screws and bolts than wood. Its secured to the wall with about 9 expanding bolts which are also glued in.

Hasnt moved an inch since I fitted it and has seen a lot of abuse.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: lostarrow on February 03, 2014, 09:16:12 am
 Good point, Dwardo.  My outfeed was a kitchen island countertop for years. Glue cleans of it real easy!
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: adb on February 03, 2014, 11:04:08 am
I don't use a workbench for bow making or tillering. I have a work bench, but for tillering, I made a pedestal vice.

How deeply(and how) did you anchor that into the concrete? I had a grinder on a pedestal and it broke the concrete.
Don

I just used concrete lag bolts to secure it. I think they were 3" deep. Haven't touched it in 8 years.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Mark Smeltzer on February 03, 2014, 11:18:51 am
For my bow building vice I took a vice similar to the one you pictured and mounted to one end of a bench seat....yep literally a picnic table bench seat. Its comfortable for me to sit at and my weight holds it where I put it and I can move it easily to put it out of the way or go out side in sunshine.

Mark
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: nathan elliot on February 03, 2014, 11:44:14 am
I have had many vices 8) and for me the best one for bow making is the so called parrot vice. Lots of guys who make guitars and violins use them and they are cheap. Here is mine.
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/nathanelliot_bucket/IMG_0987.jpg)
(http://i605.photobucket.com/albums/tt139/nathanelliot_bucket/IMG_0858.jpg)


Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Del the cat on February 03, 2014, 11:49:27 am
Hey Nathan, nice selection of drawknives... I think there's just about room for another on the bench >:D
Del
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Blaflair2 on February 03, 2014, 12:24:06 pm
I just have such a mess on the floor my bench is kinda wedged lol. I plan on making a new one in the summer
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: nathan elliot on February 03, 2014, 12:44:20 pm
Hey Nathan, nice selection of drawknives... I think there's just about room for another on the bench >:D
Del

Since that picture was taken my collection has grown some, I cant help it I'm as addicted to the tools as I am the wood!
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: brettd on February 03, 2014, 01:36:54 pm
I have a vise that I surfaced with pine, then surfaced with heavy leather (smooth side towards wood).  Seems to be working very well. I don't worry about how hard I crank the vise, and I never leave marks.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Del the cat on February 03, 2014, 02:25:53 pm
I have a vise that I surfaced with pine, then surfaced with heavy leather (smooth side towards wood).  Seems to be working very well. I don't worry about how hard I crank the vise, and I never leave marks.
I should really get round to doing that, or maybe cork jaws. Yew sapwood dents if you just look at it too hard :o
Del
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Thesquirrelslinger on February 03, 2014, 02:28:22 pm
ok. So bolting this to the wall is out of the question.
So would a frame of 4x4s and 300 pounds of sand do it?
Top is gonna be 4x4's covered with plywood.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: beetlebailey1977 on February 05, 2014, 06:41:46 pm
(http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x460/beetle_bailey1977/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/D70CF1D7-F21A-4408-84EF-53B55EA74327.jpg) (http://s1182.photobucket.com/user/beetle_bailey1977/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-02/D70CF1D7-F21A-4408-84EF-53B55EA74327.jpg.html)

My mobile work bench.......all out of 2" x 12" scaffold quality pine lumber.  Very heavy and works good for me.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: IdahoMatt on February 06, 2014, 11:12:30 am
That looks like a nice set up James. 
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: ajooter on February 06, 2014, 05:41:13 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/MMSM5mT.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/SQNZ1gR.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/TtLsaD4.jpg?1)

Here it is all done!!  Learned a lot from my old man on this one since im not much of a carpenter.  Need to get some shorter bolts and some carpet or leather for the vice shoes and ill be in business.  Overall it was a good time.  Ill be sad when I put the first good scratches in it since he had me finish it so nicely.
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: huisme on February 06, 2014, 05:57:49 pm
All these benches are making me jealous! I use an elm disk on top of my gravel floor to stand the bow on and protect my machete. I do all the work with the bow vertical or across my lap, and have to leave tip refinement to the very end of the build. I even do my steam bends by hand (with heavy gloves of course).
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Joec123able on February 06, 2014, 06:07:59 pm
I have a vise that I surfaced with pine, then surfaced with heavy leather (smooth side towards wood).  Seems to be working very well. I don't worry about how hard I crank the vise, and I never leave marks.
I should really get round to doing that, or maybe cork jaws. Yew sapwood dents if you just look at it too hard :o
Del

Balsa wood would probably be good for a vice to prevent dents
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: willie on February 06, 2014, 06:49:45 pm
I will never mount a vice to a fixed bench again after using a pedestal vice on a moveable steel base at my buddy's shop. It gets moved frequently as various jobs have different needs and quite often the workpiece is large or awkward. often the work needs to be painted, ground, cleaned or heated with the torch. something that you might not want around other projects on the workbench. The portable pedestal could employ a bracket for temporarily attaching to the bench when the extra weight is needed for the high leverage work
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: lostarrow on February 06, 2014, 10:45:51 pm
Nice bench Ajooter! Best pic is the one with you and your Dad. Looks like good fit and finish all around!


  The scars will only add beauty!
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: bow101 on February 06, 2014, 11:54:02 pm
ajooter.........  Now thats A bench.  Full blown beefy built for life bench. 8)
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: kayakfisher on February 07, 2014, 12:01:47 am
My bow making vise is constructed out of pressure treated two by sixes and four by four post set in concrete
Title: Re: vice, bowmaking, workbenches
Post by: Badly Bent on February 08, 2014, 10:54:07 am
That bench is one nice bow building station ajooter, nice work by you and your Dad. I could spend many hours in a shop like that working on bows and be happy as a clam. Bound to be some battle scars put into the bench,It'll be worth it though. :)