Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: southsoundjeff on February 22, 2014, 04:38:32 pm
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I've decided, after building over 40 bows, and lurking here for a couple years, it's about time I give something back.
So here's the beginning of an Ocean Spray (Holodiscus Discolor) Mollegabet that I started today.
Since Ocean Spray doesn't grow very large in diameter, I'm not sure whether to call it "a log", or "a sapling"..... Whatever....
I'm starting from a piece 52" long, 2-3/8" at the butt, and 2" at the small end.
Ocean Spray is notorious for checking and splitting and cracking right down to the pithy core in nothing flat..... So after I harvested it last year, I wrapped it up under a couple layers of cellophane and slid it under the bed with the others.....
But today the bug hit me again, and I couldn't help myself any longer. I dug it out and unwrapped it, and broke out the yardstick and marker, and plugged in the bandsaw. STAND BACK! I'm makin' another one, baby!
I'm pretty much planning on backing it with rawhide, just because I have it laying around from the doe I took last year. I think it's good magic to back a bow you use for hunting, with materials from the animals you have harvested. It's a "full-circle" relationship that bonds the spirit with the tangible.....
Pictures and more rambling to follow....
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If you can find the bigger OS good for you. 2-3/8" at the butt that is pretty hefty. I tried wraping some in
cellophane did not work for me. My best trick is to cut it now, seal it with bark on, take it out during the summer and hang it in the garage or leave it in the Hot summer sun for about a week.
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Here are the raw materials.
I've laid a yardstick and an 18" rule down so you can get some perspective...
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I'll be watching. I've got a bunch of OS almost dry. Another month maybe. I sure hate waiting.
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I hear you Don.....
As I was cutting it out, I realized how much moisture there still was in the wood.
This O.S. is sure a fickle wood......
What the heck- get it as close as possible- as QUICKLY as possible.
That way, at least I can minimize the mass, and hopefully prevent that heartbreaking splitting.
Here goes nothing....... But I'll leave those other ones I have for probably another year.....
First I cut a flat- almost to the core....
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Then I laid out all the markings on the flattened edge (which will be the back).
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Then cut out the thicknesses.....
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Now I'll be setting it aside and checking on it periodically until I figure the moisture content has stabilized.
If It's not totally split to all creation, then I'll proceed in an orderly fashion....
Or a "not so orderly" fashion, as is my usual method.....
If it splits like crazy or snaps like a twig, I'll do what I often do- grab some more wood and make another bow.......
I don't take bow building all that seriously.
C'mon...... It's a stick and a string, right?
If the native peoples had to follow all the "rules" I've heard about, they would have starved before ever shooting their bows. Or given up from frustration and discouragement.
I try to keep it light and have fun with the process. It keeps me off the street.....
Maybe I'll spend the next couple weeks pounding some sinew out.
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Did you de-crown the back?
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The first pictures, cutting it flat near the core.....
That's my idea of de-crowning.....
The rounded portion left over is what I am using for the belly.
Note the left-over bark on the handle area.
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so a backward bowout of OS, interestinggg
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I've always been told I'm a little bit odd......
Why would my bows be different?
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ive made quite a few OS bows, and ive noticed that its always a good idea to keep it simple.
but iam interested to see how turns out:)
you will loose alot of the width you have now bc of the high crown and the high density of OS.
OS is a though wood and will fret or collapse along horizontal pin knots close to the belly(<---just a heads up)
did you just cut this stave?
-Pinecone
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did you just cut this stave?
-Pinecone
Was cut last year, but probably late enough in the spring that the sap was running.
Then again, it's one of the thicker diameter ocean spray chunks I've had, so probably should have left it longer.
Come to think of it, that was the first time I've wrapped in cellophane. Prior to this, I've always just smeared the entire thing in white glue. Maybe that had an effect also.
I've always had issues along the back, when I've tried selfbows. Haven't had trouble with the belly yet, but watch- now that I've said that....... I'll get bit for sure......
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I hope than I'm wrong, but I think that you just ruined a really exceptional piece of ocean spray. If there's any moisture left in that stick at all, it's going to split right down the center of your bow.
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Yeah if i were you i wold seal the whole thing with glue and cross your fingers :-X
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I've been shooting my OS lever bow and I like it alot even though it came out too light.
I've got a mountain of OS staves all ready to make into bows and none of it is checked. You did exactly the right thing to keep it from checking--splitting it. I also debark all my OS so that it can dry more evenly.
OS splits for two reasons: When it is left in log form AND when it dries too quickly. Both are easy to manage--don't leave it in log form AND slow down the drying by covering the worked and debarked staves with a blanket or sleeping bag--something that will slow but allow the drying to occur. Not a plastic bag. I zip mine up in a sleeping bag in a 70% humid room. After a week or two in the bag I pull them out and air dry them for two more weeks. And that's what I would recommend to you.
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Oh wow, I, like everyone else, didn't get at first that you laid out the bow on the back. I didn't really look at the pics until now.
You HAVE to back the working part of those limbs. Use that rawhide.
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I've been shooting my OS lever bow and I like it alot even though it came out too light.
I've got a mountain of OS staves all ready to make into bows and none of it is checked. You did exactly the right thing to keep it from checking--splitting it. I also debark all my OS so that it can dry more evenly.
OS splits for two reasons: When it is left in log form AND when it dries too quickly. Both are easy to manage--don't leave it in log form AND slow down the drying by covering the worked and debarked staves with a blanket or sleeping bag--something that will slow but allow the drying to occur. Not a plastic bag. I zip mine up in a sleeping bag in a 70% humid room. After a week or two in the bag I pull them out and air dry them for two more weeks. And that's what I would recommend to you.
Thanks for the tip Steve!
That method makes the most sense for drying this stuff than any other explanation I've heard.
Or maybe you just said it in a way My Pea Brain could hear it.....
Either way, THANKS!
Got up this morning to a split and checked piece of kindling.....
But this afternoon I will head out and properly care for the other logs I have, the way you describe....
I don't have a spare sleeping bag available, but have a gifted comforter that I will spritz with a little water and wrap the split and peeled staves in....
I worry the humidity in the room will be too low and "shock" the OS into splitting still, so I want to temper the drying a little by raising the moisture A LITTLE in the old comforter....
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I hope than I'm wrong, but I think that you just ruined a really exceptional piece of ocean spray. If there's any moisture left in that stick at all, it's going to split right down the center of your bow.
This was the least exceptional piece of OS I had stashed, but I appreciate the input.
My experience with OS has been that it has ALWAYS split from the bark to the pithy core, if it splits.
Also my experience that if OS is taken down to exposed the pith along the entire length, then I've NEVER had a piece split.
I've had 3+" logs of it, taken green in the early summer, in active growing cycle, that I've taken to the bandsaw within 1-1/2 hours, and so long as I've sawn it to the core, it had dried without splitting or checking.
Also my experience that the core rarely runs down the center. Mostly, I find it meanders around somewhere inside, but does waver from side to side from butt to tip.
Your mileage may differ.
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Thanks to all who commented......
The stave split beyond being usable overnight, so I will be making another out of the remaining wood I have, when it dries enough.
I'll post another thread when it's ready.
Mean time, I'll probably post one of the other bows I've done....
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Sorry about that. It would have been a really cool bow.
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When i look at a nice hunk of OS, mollegabet is the last design that comes to mind, but to each his own.
I thought you were going to get away it having it sawed it down. Must have still had quite high moisture due to plastic wrap and larger diam.
Welcome! Glad you are posting. Where do you live?
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Yea, that's why I mentioned the humidity level; just because I'm not experienced in dry climates with how the OS will behave.
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I think if you tried to dry OS in somewhere like Arizona you would have kindling in about three days. I gathered a bunch over the winter and have tried every drying method I could think of. Some outside(under cover), some roughed out, some as they were cut. Most I cut ala SteveB, expose the pith. I split the handle on those that I roughed out but they open like a clam. They'll get the Rossfactor handle treatment I think. I have two sets of staves one of which I didn't split the handle. I drilled the pith out with a 6" long 1/4" drill. I'm hoping the heartwood will dry a bit faster that way. To hedge my bets I've got the handle end loosely covered with a plastic bag. So far I only have minor checking on any of it. I think the secret is exposing the heartwood so it can dry with the sapwood. There isn't actually heartwood and sapwood but you know what I mean. It may also just be cutting though the sapwood that keeps it from splitting. It does seem to need a long drying period. I have one piece that is about an inch through the handle. All I did with it was seal the ends with shellac. I weighed it every few weeks and after 5 months I weighed it every few days. It got to the point that it seemed to be going up and down with the RH so I roughed it out. That was in December. I kept on weighing it and and the next day it started losing weight again and two months later it still is. It's down to about a gram a day so it's getting close. I'm rambling, I'll shut up now.
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Don, I enjoyed your ramblings. Good info.
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Don,
Have you tried the opposite approach?? Try soaking the wood for about 30 days, after the 30 + days seal the ends with glue put it in a cool place...no extremes.
I mentioned this before, and was met with a little critcism. My belief is that wood is dryer closer to the pith, wood near the cambium layer is much more moist....if you equilize the two you will have less cracking....I said less, but I have dried some this way with NO cracking.
VMB
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Did you de-bark it first? I agree with your idea in principle. It seems fairly obvious that the outer wood is shrinking faster than the inner wood. Wouldn't wrapping it in plastic for 30+ days accomplish about the same thing(allowing the moisture level to equalize) without adding any moisture? I would hesitate to do something that would possibly extend the drying time. I'm just spitballing, I haven't tried either. I'm starting to think that outside, in the shade, protected from the rain and leave it for a year might be the answer in high humidity areas like mine. Once I get a stock of workable(dry) staves time won't be an issue. It's this da%*%ed impatience that causes most of the checking.
Don
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I never take the bark off. Dealing with a lot of wood bowl turners, they have come up with several ways to avoid cracking....one is boiling, another is to always place the preform (bowl) in paper bags with wood shavings that are close to the same MC as this with have a slow exchange between the woods to slow rapid MC loss.
Native americans would place their staves in creeks, or water ways hoping to wash the "sap" away making the wood more usable..... Personally I think they had it half right in theory....but the reality in my mind, was to stabilize the wood at a consistent MC throughout the entire piece.....This is my PERSONAL belief.
Forgot to address the wrapping...yes in theory this may work...BUT in cellephane exposed to the air temp changes are more drastic, it takes a lot more to change water temps over a given period of time....water will be more cosistent if it"s not is direct light.
VMB
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Did you de-bark it first? I agree with your idea in principle. It seems fairly obvious that the outer wood is shrinking faster than the inner wood. Wouldn't wrapping it in plastic for 30+ days accomplish about the same thing(allowing the moisture level to equalize) without adding any moisture? I would hesitate to do something that would possibly extend the drying time. I'm just spitballing, I haven't tried either. I'm starting to think that outside, in the shade, protected from the rain and leave it for a year might be the answer in high humidity areas like mine. Once I get a stock of workable(dry) staves time won't be an issue. It's this da%*%ed impatience that causes most of the checking.
Don
I have dried quite a bit of Hawthorn, OS and Choke cherry. This is the fastest way I have done it without any checking. Some of the Hawthorn was 4" the OS was smaller stuff about 1"..
[1] Cut wood in Feb. or March
[2] Seal the ends, leave bark on
[3] Place in Garden shed
[4] Place outside during Summer for about 2 weeks and never had any checking.
[5] Bring inside and hang up near the cieling of garage or inside house
[6] Strip bark near August and seal
[7] Strip bark and shape in September /October
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I'll give it a shot. I have a koi pond I can throw it in. I just have to wait until this latest dump of snow melts so I can get into the bush. It was about 10" very wet, heavy snow and I'm concerned that it flattened all the OS. Yesterday afternoon was almost continual cracking of Balsam branches giving up the ghost.
Don
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I have dried quite a bit of Hawthorn, OS and Choke cherry. This is the fastest way I have done it without any checking. Some of the Hawthorn was 4" the OS was smaller stuff about 1"..
[1] Cut wood in Feb. or March
[2] Seal the ends, leave bark on
[3] Place in Garden shed
[4] Place outside during Summer for about 2 weeks and never had any checking.
[5] Bring inside and hang up near the cieling of garage or inside house
[6] Strip bark near August and seal
[7] Strip bark and shape in September /October
How are determining if the wood(OS) is dry? Do you have a meter or are you weighing it or are you just winging it?
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I'am just winging it. I tried the Poly wrap last year on a piece of OS and it checked allright, like a crevice the size of the grand canyon. I'll never try that method agian. As long as its properly sealed and sitting outside in the hot sun it should be ok.
I forgot to mention after cutting my wood I first burn the ends untill black, then I use a sealer, usually Varathane. The Varathane has never let me down.
This may help you out, its an expensive may to go....... ::) Never tried it myself.
PEG-1000
PEG-1450
Instruction Sheet
Polyethylene glycol (PEG) is a chemical treatment used on green wood to prevent
warping, cracking and shrinking. PEG is a white waxy substance that is solid
at room temperature. It is non-toxic, non-flammable and soluble in water. No
special safety precautions are required when working with it.
The numbers 1000 and 1450 refer to the average molecular weight of the polymer
chains of PEG. PEG-1000 is supplied in solid blocks and melts at 98° to 103°F
(37° to 39°C). PEG-1450 is supplied in flake form and has a higher melting
temperature, 110° to 115°F (43° to 46°C). Because of the larger molecule size,
PEG-1450 is absorbed more slowly into wood, but will not bleed from wood as
PEG-1000 will in hot, humid conditions.
Choice of Woods
For PEG to be effective, the wood to be treated must be green, with a moisture
content (MC) above 30%. PEG will not restore dry wood to its original dimensions,
nor will it stabilize already dry wood. The higher the moisture content, the more
effective PEG is. Wood at 100% MC treated with PEG will reduce its shrinkage
by 90%. Because of this, it is important to maintain the moisture content of the
wood while working it by keeping it covered with plastic or dampened sawdust.
All woods will behave differently with PEG. Woods most suitable are low to
medium in density, and with a high moisture content. Avoid woods with high
resin or oil content. Listed below are some woods that have been effectively treated
with PEG and some that have proven to be difficult to treat.
TREATABLE WOODS:
Poplar, Walnut, Red Oak, Beech, Pine, Apple
Aspen, Soft Maple, Spruce, Fir, Redwood, Butternut,
Hickory, Elm, Willow
UNTREATABLE WOODS:
Cherry, Hard Maple, White Oak, Tropical Hardwoods
Preparing Woods For Treatment
PEG has a limited penetration into wood no matter how long it is left to soak.
The maximum penetration into exposed end grain is about 2". Penetration into
side grain varies from 1/2" to 1". Green wood should be worked quickly so that
as little moisture as possible is lost from the workpiece. Pieces should be worked to
within 1/4" of its final dimensions before being treated to get the best penetration
and to reduce the amount of PEG lost in shavings in final working.
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Somewhat sounds fimiliar...
"nor will it stabilize already dry wood. The higher the moisture content, the more
effective PEG is. Wood at 100% MC treated with PEG will reduce its shrinkage
by 90%. Because of this, it is important to maintain the moisture content of the
wood while working it by keeping it covered with plastic or dampened sawdust"
VMB
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Jeez guys.
I just dip the ends in glue. Wait a day seal the whole stave with shellac. Wait a year. No checking and the stave is ready. I like to leave the bark on and the handle whole on the finished bow.
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Jeez guys.
I just dip the ends in glue. Wait a day seal the whole stave with shellac. Wait a year. No checking and the stave is ready. I like to leave the bark on and the handle whole on the finished bow.
Yeah, I think so. I want to take the bark off some of them. Couple coats of shellac on the whole thing. I'm beginning to think the year is the key. It's hard when you're just starting out. I've been filling the time gathering stuff, sinew, staves, feathers. Unfortunately there is no knapable rock in the area. I've got some arrow shafts drying so they should be ready to go soon. Impatience is not a virtue
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Jeez guys.
I just dip the ends in glue. Wait a day seal the whole stave with shellac. Wait a year. No checking and the stave is ready. I like to leave the bark on and the handle whole on the finished bow.
All VERY good ideas.....
I forget who asked, but I live in Tacoma, WA...
Most of my OS comes from my folks' place in Sequim, WA..... Going to be my place after I lose the fight to keep the ol geezers breathing.......
But some of it also comes from property south of me about a half hour drive....
I've had good luck like you- sealing 1" sticks- (even 1-1/2" sticks) with glue, and then the whole thing a week or so later. I've used both Elmers school glue, and spar varnish......
But when I get over about that 1-1/2" mark, leaving it whole has been disastrous no matter what I've done. Like a previous comment- it opened up like the grand canyon.....
What I haven't tried yet- is the immersion concept. The old natives maybe thought they were "washing the sap out", but your idea that it evens out the MC throughout the entire piece is probably closer to the truth. There's an irrigation stream on the property, so I might try that with the next big chunk I cut up there....
I am trying to "manage" the supply I have growing, so I don't end up cutting myself out of my stock. Near as I can figure, I have a sustainable supply for probably 10-12 bows a year and several dozen arrow shafts.
Back to the plastic wrap disaster-
I think by wrapping in plastic, I actually sealed all the moisture inside, and it had no way to dry- not even through osmosis....... SO- I won't be trying that again..... I unwrapped them today- all were on the verge of getting moldy- and cut them to the core (except for a really long skinny one, which I merely sliced a slab about 1/3 off), and then wrapped in that old comforter. Slid them back under the bed, and I'll check them again in a couple months.
Previously, on 2"-4" diameters, I've done okay by ripping them through the bandsaw and exposing the core along the whole length. My only bummer about the really big diameter chunks I've had is that they tend to be really short, and then I have to splice at the handle.
Talk about rambling! Sorry everybody.... I'm done... really....
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I guess I still don't get the problem? Jeff and I described how other than the handle opening up the stave will not check when handled such and such.
My first OS bow was cut in March, by Bryce, and shooting arrows in April. No set, I decrowned and rawhide backed it and where the rawhide didn't stick down it lifted a splinter so I set it aside.
I cut some this August, again with Bryce, and almost immediately made a kids bow from one and again, no set, and no checking.
I made a TD lever bow from two big billets from the same batch and it was complete by the end of the year. I weighed those floor tillered billets for weeks and they never lost an ounce, every day in the heat box. No checking. No set.
If the widening handle area is making you wait a year then so be it, if that is what you want, but why can't you just fill the void, or splice on the handle, or let the handle bend?
I think other woods are worse, like plum. I don't understand all the fuss about OS.
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As far as the PEG treatment goes, was just something worth mentioning but then again I know it does not belong in this forum because its not a primitive way to do things. So for that I apologise.
"cut in March, by Bryce, and shooting arrows in April. " how in the dickens could it be dry. .? Will it possibly split down the road..?
"I don't understand all the fuss about OS." It is extremely dense compared to most woods, and unusual because its a "deciduous shrub" and not a tree.
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If the widening handle area is making you wait a year then so be it, if that is what you want, but why can't you just fill the void, or splice on the handle, or let the handle bend?
I plan on filling the void like Rossfactor , http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,44857.0.html
but unlike him I only want to do it once :D so I want to make sure it's finished moving.
I would love to run the trunks through the bandsaw and get two staves per trunk but I keep hearing that gluing on a riser doesn't work.
Some bendy handles are in the plan but only for trunks that are roughly 1 1/4" or less.
Don
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I'm not entirely certain if it is relevent to the discussion, but I'll share anyway, and invite all who might prefer to ignore as they please :) ...
My Grandfather used to make custom tool handles out of hickory. He made a pretty good bit of side cash doing so. He also raised pigs. He would cut his hickory baughs and split staves, and bury them in the mucky and wet part of the hog wallows. He left them there to 'season' for 1 - 5 years. (Sorry, I don't recall how long for which type of project, but he was particular about it.) When he pulled them out he'd hang them up in the top of the barn to finish drying, (...and to air out too I'm sure!), before he made the handles out of them. He said the hog manure had minerals in it that permiated the wood and made it stronger than if he just used it green.
I wonder if he wasn't also getting a moderated and controled rate of loss of MC by this method???
OneBow