Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: TimothyR on March 03, 2014, 03:33:24 am
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Hey y'all Tim here. I have this ipe board that I have 1 1/2"x1 3/4"x83 3/8" long. I'm wondering if I can do anything with
This it has several knots I would like to try elb and back it with hickory or linen. What do y'all think should I scrap it because of the knots or is it salvageable. Thanks ahead of time for any input. Tim
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Well it's hard to tell from here wether the knots will actually be in the bow once it's roughed out.
If the knots are on the belly face once roughed out then forget it. Ipe needs to be clean. I've tried to use pieces with tiny pin knots and they always come and bite you on the as# ;) They can hold up to full draw but....eventually they chyrsal.
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The pictures are too small for me to see the knots. Try uploading the pics to www.tinypic.com and post the new pics. This message board downsizes most pics so much, that it almost becomes a thumbnail icon.
Judging from the number of circles I can see you drew onto the board, I'm afraid there might be too many knots to make that board salvageable. You can sometimes lay out the bow so a knot ends up in the handle or tip (where the knot won't bend). But with this many knots, there's a high chance at least a few knots will end up in the bending portions of the limb. And ipé does not fare well around the knots...
A linen backing will not have the capacity to save the board. Hickory might, but that depends on the knots.
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I thought it wouldn't work but I just thought I'd ask...I can use this board in other projects so I won't be losing anything. Thanks for the input. :)
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That piece of ipe is junk. I'm going to send you my address in a PM so you can send it to me for proper disposal. 8)
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adb...should I through caution to the wind and just give itna try.?. :laugh:
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Unlike Mike, I've never had any problems with little knots or grain swirls with ipe belly wood in a laminate. Hell, yah... make a bow out of it! Laminate some maple, ash, or hickory on the back, and have at it. ELB, flatbow, pyramid bow... ipe will do all those with ease.
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adb...I'll try it...can't hurt nothing. I have a good pcs. Of hickory for the back. We have some good weather coming to town so I'll be able to get outside and work. I'll post some pics. I think I can keep most of the knots in the handle area. Thanks for the advice.
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I'm very surprised you haven't had any problems with pin knots in ipe. I guess it's to do with how strained you make your bows?? How wide would you rough out a 72 ntn elb if you were aiming for a 60# ipe/hick combo.
They don't always give up but they can so I stay well away from them now.
By the way remember the handle/fades area is the most strained of all......unless it's not bending at all.
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I'm with ADB . back it with a wood backing, and it will be fine. The shot of the end grain tells the rest of the story. Rift sawn boards give you more leeway . The grain run offs and swirls are reinforced by the growth rings next to it (in most cases). I've made bows that look terrible (as far as grain ) when viewed from one side , but with the rift sawn you have to look at the whole thing to wrap your head around what's going on.
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So should I try to bring it down to a growth ring or just back it as is? I can use all 83" if need be. The rings or so small its hard to follow. I have two pcs. Of 60" hickory and one pcs. Of 73" for backing. I know 83" would be a looong bow but if it puts less stress on the limbs I will do what I have to.
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Unless you're making a high draw weight warbow, more than 80" is too long. You'll have too much limb mass. If you want an ELB, make it 72", a flatbow 64-68" and no more than 1 3/8" at the fades. Ipe is very tough wood, and compression strong, and it doesn't take much ipe to make a bow.
Don't chase a ring if you're backing it. Not likely possible anyway, and not necessary.
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I'm very surprised you haven't had any problems with pin knots in ipe. I guess it's to do with how strained you make your bows?? How wide would you rough out a 72 ntn elb if you were aiming for a 60# ipe/hick combo.
They don't always give up but they can so I stay well away from them now.
By the way remember the handle/fades area is the most strained of all......unless it's not bending at all.
If I'm making an Elb backed ipe longbow, I go no more than 1 1/8" at the grip, tapering evenly to 3/8" tips with a 4" handle. I start at 1" thick, and floor tiller from there.
I've never had a backed ipe bow fail. Probably made 50 or 60 ipe bows, maybe more. I've broken a few on the tiller, but very rare. I like ipe, it's tough wood, and I can get it easily and for low cost.
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I dont think I have made one that didn't have at least one pin knot. I have yet to see ipe fret. Im sure it can I just haven't had it happen.
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Is it ok to back ipe with ash? Im wondering because I can get that pretty easily. Thanks. Timothy
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Is it ok to back ipe with ash? Im wondering because I can get that pretty easily. Thanks. Timothy
I'd say yes. Any normal wooden backing should work with ipe.
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I dont think I have made one that didn't have at least one pin knot. I have yet to see ipe fret. Im sure it can I just haven't had it happen.
I've never seen it fret either.
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Is it ok to back ipe with ash? Im wondering because I can get that pretty easily. Thanks. Timothy
I'd say yes. Any normal wooden backing should work with ipe.
Well, not sure of that: have seen a lightweight ipé trilam ripping a nice elm backing apart.
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The problem then would have been the grain in the elm.
I guarantee you that ipe can and will chyrsal at pin knots when it's heavily strained (even with good tiller) just like any other wood. I have pictures!
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The problem then would have been the grain in the elm.
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Perfect grain elm. (Perfect piece of ipé, too) The problem has been analysed by several bowyers, all came to the same conclusion.
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I guarantee you that ipe can and will chyrsal at pin knots when it's heavily strained (even with good tiller) just like any other wood. I have pictures!
Yes, I have seen that, too. Several times.
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So if I made it light say 35-40# would that be ok? 40# is the minimum hunting weight here. I have most of the knots in the handle. But there are two knots one on the back and one in the belly. But I think I can get the one in the belly out. And I also read about sealing the knots with super glue. I want to try at least I don't have anything to lose. If it holds up I will have a good bow and if it don't I'll have a good learning experience. But you guys know more than i do.
Thanks Timothy.
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And what pictures are you guys talkin about? I'd like to see them if that possible.
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You might get lucky with 50 or 60# even. I'm not saying it happens all the time, just saying I've seen it happening. That is why myself, I wouldn't try. JMO so to speak.
Knots in the (stiff) handle are no problem of course, in the working part you want to try to avoid if possible. But even if they are there and develop frets it might still be a fine shooter.
A lot of 'problems' might not even appear if the tillering process runs perfect from floor tiller to full draw.
If it runs perfect...
8) 8) 8)
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I guess with bow making, ya don't always get the same answer. :) Instead of blaming each other, I think we should blame wood for being inconsistent itself in nature!!! >:( lol I thought elm was fantastic in tension by the way, I have heard it is better than hickory, and some warbow shooters have remarked they would prefer an elm backing to a hickory one? I remember reading that somewhere on here.
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I've had poor luck with elm backings. Very prone to lifting a splinter. I've filed it with bamboo as a secondary and not very good backing material.
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I'm going to give it a shot and post some pics as soon as I get it floor tillerd. I looked again and I have no knots in the belly..just one in the back hopefully I can seal the knot with super glue and maybe the hickory back will hold it together... we shall see. Thanks for the advice. It helps a lot. I've been trying to learn all this stuff on my own from reading and trial and error. Im glad I found this forum. :)
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I've got this thing ready for tillering. It is backed with ash. I had to put two together for the length so I put a thin stripe of ipe over the center. I know you cant see it but there are small ripples in the limbs...ive tried using a pocket knife and a sanding block but I cant seem to get them out. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Tim
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Ipe is hard wood, and it's prone to washboard if you only work it with a scraper. If you want to get rid of the washboard, go over the limb with a fine rasp.
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Use a rasp or machinist file to get the ripples out. Run it the length of the limb, keeping it as close to parallel as you can to the limb. This will knock the high spots off while leaving the dips untouched.
I use a rasp early on in the tillering process, and then switch to a file later on to avoid making deep scratches in the wood. I do this often in between scraping sessions, because sometimes the scraper itself induces a bit of "washboard" into the belly wood.
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Adam beat me to it :)
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I forgot about that first pic. How can I fill that piece? Its at least 2 mills deep.
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I've had poor luck with elm backings. Very prone to lifting a splinter. I've filed it with bamboo as a secondary and not very good backing material.
no experience with elm as a backing. I have a nice elm selfbow. I have a love hate relationship with bamboo as a backing.
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My first thought was what about a plug or gorges patch where the knots are...anyone done this with Ipe? I've heard of gluing problems because of the oil, but it should work right? Either way looks like you're getting that thing ready to bend, good deal!
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I forgot about that first pic. How can I fill that piece? Its at least 2 mills deep.
Looks to be inside the handle, so that spot won't see any stress. You can fill it with anything, or nothing ;) An easy fix would be to pack it with fine sawdust and then soak some crazy glue in.
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This is only on the long string but can I get a tiller check please? And Im sorry about the pic. But its was the best I could do.
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someone with more experience will offer better tillering advice, but have you see the tillering gizmo? You may need a different color of pencil on the ipe, but it will let you know where you have flat spots and places with more bend than the rest of the limb.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,23134.0.html
Just my thoughts, trust someone else's advice more, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. I like the bend in the left limb better than the right, its a nice curve, a bit more of the bend happens midlimb. The right limb coming out of the fade to mid limb looks to me to be bending more than the rest of the limb. I would scrape mid to outer limb on the right until it gets a more even bend to it. On the left focus more on inner and outter thrids until it evens up with the other limb. After I felt I had enough bend to get it to a low brace I would do so, probably not far off from that.
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someone with more experience will offer better tillering advice, but have you see the tillering gizmo? You may need a different color of pencil, but it will let you know where you have flat spots and places with more bend than the rest of the limb.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,23134.0.html
I have one...I have been using it on this bow. But your right I do need a different color or an artist charcoal pencil.
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The right limb is hinging at the fade. Don't pull it any farther until you get the outer 2/3rds of that limb bending more, or you'll get a bunch of set at the fade, which is the worst place for it to take set.