Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Crogacht on April 20, 2014, 07:08:00 am
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Hi guys,
Well, I finally started on my first bow about a week ago, and I thought it was about time I posted a few photos.
I got TBB's 1-3 when I was 15, and I promptly went out and cut down a small elm by the creek near my parents home and put the whole log, unsealed, into the woodshed :P Then I went and did some study, got married, had a few children, moved towns a couple of times and eventually decided it was time to haul them back out 12 years later and see if I could build a bow.
The staves are not the best, but it would be cool to get a bow out of one of them if I could.
I have a few pictures of the first stave below, it will need some side to side straightening with the heatgun soon I think.
For anyone else who is just starting out, I am using the following tools: sharp hatchet, drawknife, pocketknife (I think I prefer this to a cabinet scraper), large nicholson rasp.
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More...
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Carried away with the photo taking :)
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Had a bit more spare time today, so I reduced the width on both limbs to near final width and started reducing the thickness on one of the limbs. That limb is still not bending, but I'm going to take a little more off, then do the same with the other side, and then straighten the lateral kink out with the heatgun.
I've learnt a lot so far, and the design is slowly changing as I uncover earlier mistakes. I was aiming for a stiff handle, but I don't have enough wood fades-midlimb for that so I need the handle to be doing some work too. A stiff handle on a 60inch bow at my non existant skill level with an average stave was probably asking a bit much, ohwell ::)
The drawknife is great, but I understand why everyone rates a nice big rasp so highly.... it's incredibly useful.
I have ordered some B50, and will try to get a tillering tree setup by this weekend ready for the long string.
In the pics, the limb at the top has not had the thickness reduced yet.
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Looks like you are starting out the hard way with a tough stave.
On the other hand it looks like you know how to work wood.
My only criticism would be the two rings grooved round the bow, it's bad practice to cut across the back like like... ok the handle may not be flexing visibly, but it's still under strain. I've had stiff handled warbows with spliced grips explode because of slight defects at the grip... so take care of the back and it will take care of you!
Good to another victim, I mean member of this community :laugh:
Del
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I have easier staves in the rafters, but I cut these when I first got interested in bow making, so I felt like it was appropriate to attempt a bow... maybe it will kick me in the teeth and send me crying to the lumberyard, but we'll see :P
Not 100% sure which pic you're looking at Del, but if it's that last one, the top of the photo is the belly and there is definitely a ring or two cut through there by the tip :laugh: the thickness still needs a lot of reduction there.
I'll see how it goes with the handle, I'm just worried that the limbs won't take the strain as I have to make them quite thin due to earlier mistakes while reducing with the hatchet ::) I think I'm only aiming for about 40" @ 26 or something though... so maybe I'll be alright. It's amazing how thin the limbs actually need to be before they start moving.
Hehe, thanks Del. It's good to finally get moving on a stave... sometimes there's not enough hours in the day.
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Looks like you are getting it under control,didn't know Elm came that crooked. ;) :) :) Looking forward to seeing more. :)
Pappy
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If anything I can assure you that stave is gonna teach you being your first victim ;) good luck...focus on perfecting each step and doing the best ya can at each stage,and not the final outcome ...and be patient in tillering(hard to do for new folks)
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Del was just having an elderly moment and confused the close-up of your drawknife handle with part of the bow. ;)
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I wondered the same thing for a minute Del ??? (and sorry to say it has given me an idea).
You've got a challenge there, but looks like you're on the right path.
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Del was just having an elderly moment and confused the close-up of your drawknife handle with part of the bow. ;)
I knew that :-[ ::)
Del
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Wow. That's a challenging stave for your first bow.
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All the nice exotic trees are in the parks and reserves :P, elms like this one grow wild near streams or rivers close to the city where seeds have washed up and self sown. If you head out into the native forest there's plenty of nice straight trees, but the weather here is a bit wild, so they often have more propeller twist than a squadron of spitfires.
I think this one in particular dried into a bit of "sideways reflex" (new term from I learnt from another thread ;)), as I remember it being straighter when cut, but it WAS a long time ago.
I usually end up measuring everything repeatedly and being mechanical and precise, but with this bow building business I seem to be preferring other methods of working... like running your fingers over the limb to determine correct taper, and just using sight sometimes, instead of drawing hard lines and measuring... I still laid the bow out before I started, but the whole process is tending away from rules and measuring and more towards intuition... it's kind of nice. Intuition based on 0 experience may turn out to be wrong intuition, but it's pretty fun anyway :D I guess if the stave is lumpy and twisted, straight lines and measurements seem to become a bit pointless rather quickly.
Children contribute to a deterioration of mental health and I have 3 already, so I know how you feel ;)
Certainly is a challenge, but it's providing a lot of opportunities for decision-making, so it's turning out quite fun.
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Alright, did a bit more thinning work on the other limb in preparation for heat straightening.
Back, Belly and Side.
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So I needed to bend the bow near the handle/fade area of one limb quite a way to line it up with the handle.
This is my very basic setup, but I think it does the job OK.
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I have brought it back all the way to where it needed to be to line up the string, then maybe another 3/4 of an inch or so past that.
A crack has developed on the side of the bow on the belly side of the handle. It was in a spot that I wasn't applying much heat/oil to, as I thought it was too far away to be bending, but I think I was wrong. I'm not sure if I bent it too quickly, or if the lack of heat and oil applied at that spot caused it to crack instead of bend.
The bow will not be doing much bending/work in that spot so I'm wondering if it will be OK as it is. If not, any suggestions what I can do about it? I don't really want to cut the thickness down and glue on a new riser.
The handle is still quite thick, so I'm wondering if I thin it a little, then I could get rid of most or all of that crack anyway. I was planning on making the handle work a little bit more than it's currently designed to do anyway.
Thoughts?
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Alright, it's had a couple of hours to cool down in the vice, so I slowly took it out. The tip came back towards centre by about 3/4 of an inch :D So it's nearly perfectly aligned with the centre of the handle.
It's a bit of a shame about that crack, but I think I can find a solution.
The pulley for my tiller tree arrived too, so I've got all the bits I need to build it... except maybe some long screws or bolts, I'll have to go and get more of those. I guess I should let the bow rehydrate for awhile before I start bending it too much.
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Fille the crack with super glue and saw dust. It should be fun
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Ok, I was thinking of either doing that, or removing handle thickness until the cracked wood is sawdust on the floor. The handle would be much thinner (slightly over 1 inch thick but still more than the limb thickness), and it would become a bendy handle rather than a stiff handle.
Those are my two options I think.
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Floortillering has begun and the tips are moving about an 1-1.5 inches.
Pretty happy with where it's at now, apart from that crack... but it's not looking so bad, it's half filled up with sawdust now anyway so I'll probably just pump some glue into it tomorrow and leave it at that.
Tomorrow is Tiller Tree building day, should be fun. I'm still waiting on my B50, but it should be here on Monday... then I have to figure out how to make a couple of strings.
Last photos for the day. Looks waaaaay better now the tips are lined up.
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Just beware that it checked like that because it isn't dry enough yet. Keep it somwhere dry inside or in a hotbox all the time you aren't actually working on it.
Good luck!
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What final dimensions you shooting for? Are you planning to sinew the back? I can't tell by the pics but it looks pretty short for stiff handle...
Don
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It's about 2 inches wide at the fades, tapering straight to the tips. I'm only looking for about 40# @ 26-27 inches or thereabouts. Stave is 60 inches long. I'm pretty sure I could thin the handle down and get it bending slightly, and it may be a good idea.
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Right. I've spent the last 2 weekends harvesting black locust so haven't had much time for my elm (hoarding is pretty important though >:D), but tonight I managed to make my first flemish bow string (tillering string)
I'm pretty sure the jig I made is designed for the type of string where you reverse twist one end into a loop and reverse twist the other end for a timber hitch then just give the whole thing a few turns for good measure/length adjustment. But I wanted to do a full length flemish twist for my first string, so I set the peg at 70 inches and did a 14 thread string in two colours and the final length ended up about 60-61 inches. This should work out pretty well as the bow is about 58 inches ntn, so I figure once the string stretches a bit it should be about the right length for a tillering string... I hope.
I couldn't stop there, so I got one set of nocks done and the wee loop fits nice and snug, so tomorrow I will deal with the other end and hopefully get the long string on... phew.
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Looks like it is coming along quite nicely! Especially if you consider what you started with. Josh
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Yeah, I'm happy so far, even if it doesn't make it, I learnt heaps.
I know a bowstring is probably about as exciting as watching grass grow and paint dry at the same time for some of you guys :laugh: ;D, but it was the first bow related thing I've made and finished so far, so I was quite excited, hehe.
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Knowing how to make a bowstring is no small thing. Without it your bow is just a funny lookin' stick! ;) ;D. Josh
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Hehe, I was "packing myself" as we say over here before I made it, but I got the hang of it about 1/4 of the way in and then by half way you can almost do it with your eyes closed. It did take me a good hour and a half though, 70 inches is a lot of string to reverse twist :P
Yeah I got quite excited when I made the nocks and the loop fit reasonably well. It really does just look like a shapely stick before, but when the nocks are cut man it starts looking awesome ;D
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70 inches is a lot of string to reverse twist :P
If you're not sure if you have arthritis in your hands you will definitely know after that. It takes me a day to get over a long twist so I just do the ends now.
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No need to twist the while thing! Just do the ends, then twist the whole string in that same direction, easy as that. A string takes me 10 min tops like this
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No need to twist the while thing! Just do the ends, then twist the whole string in that same direction, easy as that. A string takes me 10 min tops like this
Yeah :P I know that's how most people do it, but for some reason I had to do the whole thing... it looks pretty nice though ;D One's in future will just be the ends probably.
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I'm getting there I promise! 8)
Still a lot of wood to take off to get it bending more than a few inches. Maybe this weekend :laugh:
Probably should have taken the photo when I was pulling on the rope... >:D Oh well.
Had to deal with the black locust and get it inside and also have to tidy up my new toy sometime too.
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Actually, I've been wondering about this for a few days.
If you look at the first pic in my last post, you can see that the limbs leave the handle at quite a different angle.
How do you deal with this when tillering?
I see bows on PA that look similar from the side, but when at full draw, the tiller looks perfect. Does this mean that the limb without the deflex (?) just moves a couple of inches more to reach full draw? Does this effect anything, or is there anything I need to consider when dealing with this kind of bow?
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You just have to deal with what you have, I sometimes take some of that out with heat but you must be careful not to spilt it up into the handle area,most times I just go with it and make it work.I can't tell any difference. :) You are for sure making progress. Just remember the hump's and reflex/de flex as you are tillering and don't let them fool you into thinking you have a stiff or weak spot,a good even limb thickness will help a lot to start. :) On staves like that sometimes the tiller don't look prefect when it really is. Slow and easy and be sure to look at both sides often,study it before you move on.
Pappy
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Thanks for the encouragement Pappy :)
I'll try and get it bending a couple more inches so I can actually see what it's doing, then I'll work on getting the bend nice and even before I pull it any further. Will post a pic here probably.
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Alright, I've been working on getting this thing bending a bit today.
Any advice regarding the tiller?
The first pic is with the long string, and it is taut, but not enough to make the limbs move.
Second pic I've pulled it to 30lb at 12 inches draw measured from the back of the handle (note masking tape measurement in inches, thanks to George T :), solves all my problem with different kinds of handles etc)
It LOOKS like the right limb is bending only at the fade, but if you compare to the first pic, it's already at that angle when it leaves the handle. I might do a bit more on it today, but wanted to get opinions/advice/yelling etc. if anyone is able, Thanks guys :)
I'm thinking about working the mid limb a bit on both side to get it to come around another couple of inches.
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Another couple of questions.
There was a strange bulge in the stave when I started, and it wasn't until I got down further on the belly that I realised it was a decent sized knot/crack that never seemed to form into a branch. Anyway, it ended up being in the middle of the limb just before the tip. Seems relatively sturdy, as it still has the bulge of wood to (hopefully) hold it together. The crack is quite wide though... sawdust and superglue???
Also, the deflexed limb. Should I make it the top or bottom limb?
Thank you,
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Thinned the tip with the bulge a bit. Still leaving the tips non-bending for about 5 inches currently.
Took a bit more wood off both sides.
Took some wood off the handle to make it a bit more comfortable to draw while tillering.. still probably a lot of removal/shaping to be done there.
These pics are 0@0 and 35@16
Aiming for about 40-45@26-28... really need to decide now I suppose. Not even 100% what my drawlength is.
I could be wrong, but I THINK it's looking alright... It has probably 25-30 degrees prop twist + the deflexed limb, so maybe it's throwing me off, but I hope I'm on track. Should I be making a proper string and bracing soon?
Do I need to have more limb working to reach my goal? Is stiff handle still realistic? Help! :laugh:
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It's not looking bad :) But you're not yet ready for a low braceheight.
Such a deflex in one limb, near the handle, is always tricky to tiller. You want that deflex to be still showing in the full draw pic. That means the fade will appear a bit hinged when you draw the bow. In your current pic, the right limb has about the same tip deflection as the left limb. Yet, the deflex dictates that it should bend more for equal tiller. So you need to scrape the right limb a bit more, so it shows more tip deflection than the left limb. Especially the fade (that area that is deflexed) is too stiff. I can even see from the picture it is much thicker than the midlimb. The left limb is looking fine, although most of the bend is in the midlimb. Stay away from that midlimb for now.
That crack in a knot near the tip might scare you, but it's not much to worry about. It's cracks in the BACK of the bow that you need to be careful with. I can only see three pictures of the belly side of the knot. What does the back look like? I'm guessing clean? I would just leave it as is, for now. Once the tiller is finished, you want to narrow the tips and refine them. Only then you could consider filling it if there is any crack left. But this near the tip, the forces on such a crack are small. A drop of super glue won't hurt, but it's probably not strictly necessary. If it was near the midlimb or fade, then it would be a whole different story.
Perhaps I missed it, but what it is the length of the stave, nock to nock? A stiff handle seems doable.
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Excellent advice, thanks very much :)
I was a bit scared of that right fade with the deflex, I didn't know what to do with it so I hadn't really touched it yet. I think I was trying to tiller it so the deflex disappeared (and succeeding I think :P), but looks like I need to do the opposite. Instead of making the tips line up, I should be making them deflect by the same amount, which will bring the right tip down a bit further than the left.
I'm trying to leave the tips stiff for the last 4 or 5 inches, and that crack/knot is right there at about 3-4 inches, so as you say it should be OK hopefully. The back of the bow is pretty clean there, just a bulb of very hard wood. It's like there was a branch there or something and it rotted out a bit and then the tree grew over it? Kind of like scar tissue, it's quite strange.
If you check out my original post in this thread, the third pic down is the lump on the back that covers the knot/crack.
The stave is 60 inches ttt and about 58 ntn.
Exactly what sort of tiller should I be aiming for on this one? It's supposed to taper more or less in a straight line from fades to tips, but my fades aren't very wide due to mistakes made at the start, so the difference in width between fades and tip won't be as much as usual for an elm 60 inch bow I don't think.
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Well impressed as a first bow. I'm also trying my first bow in elm (see my "elm stave" post). I thought mine was difficult to tiller allowing for undulations in the back, but yours looks a whole level more challenging!
Looks like your doing well so far. Good luck
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Thanks Richard, it's been a learning experience to say the least... and I've still got 3 staves from the same log to deal with ::)
Alright, this is ~35 lb @ 20 inches. I took darksoul's advice, and tried to make the deflex visible when you draw the stave
The limb thickness looks really strange in the photo, but I think it's the prop twist distorting things. My next step this afternoon will be to scrape the left limb in general with focus on the inner-mid area. Once I've got that bending a little more I'm going to make a string and brace it. Assuming no one intervenes and tells me I have made something better suited to hang a door with (lots of hinges.... get it? ;))
I'm going to take it to 50@28
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Well, I know you guys like a good break, so here she is :P ::)
I took a bit more wood off, was pulling about 35@23, and I was happy with it so I made up a new string and braced it. Had quite a nice shape, should have taken a picture...
It was pulling 35 @ 20 and looked really sweet to me, so I took it down and was exercising it by hand and I must have over drawn it by a couple of inches and it went CRACK.
I honestly think it would have made it if I hadn't overdrawn it. It was so close, but not close enough.
Oh well. I have another bow ready for the tiller tree, so I might start work on that this week, and if that one breaks, back to elm for the next few staves.
I'm fairly happy with how it went, given how many issues the stave had, but can't do much about it now ;)
EDIT: Looking back at the pics on the tiller tree, the spot where it broke is a bit straighter when unstrung, so I'm wondering if the bend that looked so nice was really a hinge hidden by the slight reflex at that spot. Maybe that + pulling it a bit far was the cause.
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Here are a couple things to consider. I think you pulled it to far past some clear problems. You only want to pull the bow far enough to see a problem and then you take the bow down and fix it. that right limb was doing way too much work compared to the left limb. You should have fixed that before you pulled any further.
The other issue is how long you stuck with the long string. Your long string should be just long enough to slip into the nocks with out putting the bow in tension, any longer and you're making your tiller harder to read. The long string is deceptive and doesn't truly give you a good read on your tiller. It can be useful for looking for major problems during that brief time between floor tillering and first brace. You want to brace the bow as soon as the tiller looks decent when you pull the tips down 4-5". Weight and draw length mean little at this stage.
Learn to listen to your fingers, especially on a stave like this one. Your eyes can trick you with all the whoopdy-doos but your fingers can tell you if the thickness taper is smooth and constant without any thick spots or thin spots. If the thickness taper is perfect then your tiller should be darn near perfect. Calipers can be a helpful aid as you hone your magic fingers. I still use calipers sometimes to confirm what I'm feeling.
I hope that makes sense and is helpful. You seem to have the right attitude about all of this and that will take you far. You picked a tough stave for your first bow so don't be discouraged that it didn't work out. Can't wait to see your next project.
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Too bad man. It was looking real interesting.
Lots more wood out there so keep after it and keep us posted ;)
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weylin pretty much hit all the points, step back, have a ice cold adult beverage, and get another stave out and make some shavings, try and get a less challenging stave if you can ;),and most important, have fun
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Thanks Weylin, Dub, bubby
It wasn't as bad as that by the end, I had done a lot of work on the left limb and it was coming around nicely, but you're still probably right.
I definitely used the long string for too long, it kind of snuck up on me, but I'll brace it much earlier next time.
I did a lot of finger checking of thickness taper, and I like that method a lot. Need to get better at it though.
I have a lot of challenging staves in my future, so the punishment will be frequent and painful :P
It was pretty fun, apart from the destruction part ::)
I also know I could have waited after I first posted this morning for feedback before proceeding, but I decided to go on ahead.
I'm pretty happy, I made some major mistakes at the start which made the rest of it harder than it needed to be, so next time should be better
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Bad luck. Must be very frustrating after all that work. I guess that will make your first working bow that much more satisfying. I am about to do some more tillering on my first bow. I am thinking of moving from the long string to a low brace height now. Fingers crossed!
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Was a bit for half an hour or so, but ready for the next one now, and will do a lot differently :)
Hope yours goes well Richard