Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: lebhuntfish on May 18, 2014, 10:35:57 pm
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I have been working an Osage recurve for a while now. I have it in another post as well. I worked on the tips for about 4 hours today and just got it cleaned up and ready to tiller. Before I called it a day I put a long string on it and just flexed it a little bit the bend was ok but that's not what I'm freaking out about. When I looked at the tips I seen that they BOTH were leaning towards me I quickly snapped a pic then got it off the tiller. Both tips are leaning the same direction. I noticed when I rested the bow on the handle it leaned to one side so I just flattened the bottom of it until it rested level then tried it on the tiller again. I had the same results.
What should I do? Is the bow screwed? Do I need to bend it in some way with heat? Do I need to take wood off of one side or another (left or right) until the tips straighten up? Thanks for all your help, Patrick.
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1202-1_zpsq1ruzw0a.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1202-1_zpsq1ruzw0a.jpg.html)
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Here is the link to the other post that I made with this bow. It has a lot of pictures of different stages of this bow.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,45674.0.html
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I assume that as you noticed it when you put it on the tillering tree your noticing this twist when you put stress on the limbs.
If it only shows up when you pull on it, one side is weaker than the other, the direction it is twisting is the weaker side, weaken the stronger side and it should stop twisting. If it's there without being on the tillering tree, it's more of a heat correction.
Here is a helpful little image i found.
(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h241/123sharo/Circular%20-%20elliptical/twistedtip.jpg)
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This is very useful as a beginner, thanks for the insight, you guys.
I guess you could think of it like one side is being pulled further with the same force, therefore it must be weaker, therefore remove wood from the OTHER side.
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Don't be afraid to just manually wrestle the tips into line. Place the bow in a vice and use a deeply notched stick short "tiller stick" to hold the handle and string apart with the limbs at "brace height" to give a fair amount of bend to it and just grab the recurves and torque the whole limb in the direction it needs to go to straighten it.
Do each limb alternately and then brace the bow properly and keep working on it until it sits evenly. Then start flexing it and refining the tiller.
I prefer to do that than make the limbs wedge shaped from side to side in an attempt to weaken one side and bring it into line.
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Thank you guy's, I will make an attempt tomorrow and post the results afterwards. I should probably check my recent tip work to see if they are even first.
Wiley thanks, that's a really good picture to explain my problem as well as a solution.
PatM, do you just twist the tips with your hand or do you apply heat as well? I think I understand your method. It's the same way I would straighten a bend in a piece of conduit.
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Just hand twist it. You don't want to apply heat because you'll also set the strung bend into the limbs. You just want to "set" the twist out and you can do that cold.
Another tip is to flip the bow on the tiller stick so the tips are leaning "in". If the tips are leaning towards the notches in your tiller stick you will tend to torque them even more that way every time you advance the string a notch.
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Keep your tips wide like in Wiley's graphic. You don't need to shape the tips(or the handle area) until you know how the string will track or even later in the process. Get the tiller right first then bring the bow to weight. The tips and handle area don't have to be shaped to tiller a bow. Put your energy in to the proper tiller of the bow then its time to reward yourself with shaping the tips and handle and the finish work. This is where you do make a silk purse from a sows ear. ;)
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Thanks guy's, I'm learning the process from start to finish the hard way I guess. But next time will be easier. It always is once you learn something the hard way. Thanks for all of your input! Patrick
PatM, I will give that a shot after I check my wood removal to be sure it is even.
PatB, I would be satisfied with a blue jean hand bag right now, lol!
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Patience Grasshopper. Success comes with time. ;)
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Thank you Master! ;D
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I would use heat on that for sure.
Rig up a jig that allows you to heat the tips but doesn't allow them to 'uncurl'. Heat then clamp laterally where you want.
Recurves should be straight atbrace the rest is unimportant.
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I would use heat on that for sure.
Rig up a jig that allows you to heat the tips but doesn't allow them to 'uncurl'. Heat then clamp laterally where you want.
Recurves should be straight atbrace the rest is unimportant.
+1 ....its osage and will move ten thousand times easier with heat than trying to do it cold by hand...I highly doubt you could get it to move and correct by just yanking on it by hand cold..not to mention running the risk of breaking it...especially if your levers are still thick there's no way your gonna correct that by just pulling on it the other way cold...osage just doesn't give like that..it needs heat to be corrected imho
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Is it just the levers that are tipped though or has the sinew twisted the limbs a bit? That will govern which is the best way to bring the tips into line. I am assuming that the whole limbs are leaning a bit.
Not sure about Mike's statement that the shape at rest is more important. A bow can be twisted at rest and come into line at brace and beyond. The opposite is also true.
I was basing my advice on the previous thread on the bow that seemed to show that alignment issues had been worked out with the tips. If the bow has drifted in the ensuing months I'd be inclined to think that the limbs rather than the tips are the culprit.
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Thanks once again guy's! I'm getting ready to work on it now. I will first try the wood removal and make sure my work is more even. Then I will try the cold method, then heat.
PatM, it is just in the tips where I removed all the weight from the curve.
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Here is a pic of the tips. If that helps.
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1200_zps93903i6p.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1200_zps93903i6p.jpg.html)
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How straight are they when unstrung and viewed from the end like the pic on the tiller?
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Looking at your previous post of this bow I can see you just need to heat correct your levers over..both of them are leaning the same way...easy peasy diagnosis man,and I've done and had to do it many times...and even in the first pic you shown in this thread you can see its in the levers and not in the limbs..the limbs appear to be bending pretty much mostly straight down and aren't twisting...its in your levers...good thing you have no sinew there,and they'll heat correct like butter if done right and won't uncurl...don't go trying to correct that by yanking on that cold cus it won't work plain n simple.
.but if you wanna listen to someone who's never made an osage bow ,then be my guest :-X
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I'd need to see the WHOLE length of the bow before I would say that but your assessment based on a closer look at the tiller pic does look more likely. Especially in light of what the stave looked like originally.
I did NOT say to try to straighten just the tips by brute force.
Your statement about my production of Osage bows is a bit off. Not by much though.
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Ok guy's I appreciate all of the advice and the opinions. But I got it lined up and uhey are pretty close to straight at least enough that they are tracking nicely when they have some tension on them. With this stave I did have some propeller that I fixed a while back. One of the tips had a knot in the middle of the bend that I had to work around so for the first bow I worked on its finally coming along. I owe a lot to you all for all of your advise.
But here is the end result of my tip alignment. I had to do a combination of heat straightening and wood removal to get them lined up.
I also worked on the tiller for a while afterwards. What do you think of the tiller? I have the tips moving about 20 inches or so with a long string. And I think it's bending pretty good, if you don't see any problems, should I brace it now? Thanks for all of your help again, Patrick!
Tip alignment
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1204_zpstcv33ghv.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1204_zpstcv33ghv.jpg.html)
No set at all so far, it's pulling 34lbs at what I would consider brace height.
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1206_zpsan7ffzjj.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1206_zpsan7ffzjj.jpg.html)
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1207_zpsquoae3lm.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1207_zpsquoae3lm.jpg.html)
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Brace that sucker, it looks pretty good to me.
DBar
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Brace it. Looks like your lever/recurves are low enough angle to basically be non-contact at brace. You might want to stick a couple of string bridges on just before the elbow of your curves.
Take a look at Blackhawk's bow on the Mollie thread to get an idea of what they should look like on a bow with lower angled levers.
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Thanks PatM, I will check that out if I can find it. Is it a necessary thing to do, or does it just help?
Danzn Bar, thanks man I was kinda thinking the same thing.
I have been analyzing this picture, I wonder if you guy's think the outer third of the right limb needs a little more bend to it?
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It is good for a bow that has stability issues and it is also good for stopping the string in a sharper fashion as it strikes the bridges.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,38078.0.html
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Cool, thanks Pat! I look into it!
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Looking good - I agree - time to brace it.
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Thanks mwosborn, I'll make that my project for tomorrow evening!
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Well I got it braced, and it didn't look too bad, I done some minor adjustments and worked on the tiller for about an hour or so. I think I know what is wrong with it but not sure. So here it is unstrung and pulling 22 inches. My scale shot the wad but, I would guess it's about 45lbs at 22inches. The brace could be about an inch higher too. What do you guys think? Thanks, Patrick.
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1210_zpsnettur8n.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1210_zpsnettur8n.jpg.html)
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1209_zpsefjsbpgb.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1209_zpsefjsbpgb.jpg.html)
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The right limb looks a tad stiff just outside the fade.
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Little flat spot on the left limb about two fist widths from the fade?
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one thing to help is get the bow set correctly in the pocket on tree..looks tilted which will give you a false reading on till..JMO
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You was right gutpile, I checked the alignment of my bow on the tiller and the position of the string on the hooks. It made a big difference. I have worked on it some more and I have it close. I will try to post some pics tomorrow for another tiller check. Thanks, Patrick
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8) cool..glad I could be of assistance...
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Also, try to set it against a background of consistant contrast. It makes it much, much easier to critique accurately. Good job bringing those limbs into alignment by the way.
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Thanks dances, I am learning.
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Well I promised to get some pics up tonight. I have done a lot of tillering and some other tweaking. I had the end break off right at the string knock. I missed my draw weight but decided to cut 2in off each end which got me to a decent draw weight that I will be happy shooting. I thought I wanted this at about 50 lbs but I ended up with 44 at 27" it is my first finished tillered Osage bow. What do you guys think? It only took just a very little set. Which after setting for about 20 min is all but gone. Thanks Patrick.
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1217_zpstslnsdsz.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1217_zpstslnsdsz.jpg.html)
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1214_zpsxjqambx9.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1214_zpsxjqambx9.jpg.html)
(http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w668/lebhuntfish1/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1215_zpsqjpo3y3k.jpg) (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/lebhuntfish1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1215_zpsqjpo3y3k.jpg.html)
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Looks pretty good to me. Why did the tip break off? Did you cut in to the back of the bow making the string nock?
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No that's a funny story bubbles. I was stringing it by hand with an old pair of sandals on and I stepped on the tip at a little bit of an angle and it broke right where I cut the string grove in. I wasn't too upset because I already decided to pike it. Note to self, buy new shoes! Patrick
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Could I get a tiller check please???
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That tiller looks pretty damn good to me. If anything hypercritical I would say your right limb is a tiny bit stiff in the outer bit. But that's just being hypercritical as I said. It looks pretty damn good.
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Hey thanks IdahoMatt, I have worked very hard on this bow. This is actually what I would consider my first bow. Now should I lighten the tips some and then but in an arrow rest? Them a snake skin and a handle wrap.
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That tiller looks good. I think you should just leave it as is. However, I like that bend in the left limb more than the bend in the right limb. The right limb has a slight weak spot in the fade, just out from the handle. Then it also has a slight stiff spot in the mid limb. It's all really minor, but it would be good for your next bows if you can see these two spots yourself as well. There's no need to change them at this point, however.
Since the tiller is good and the bow didn't fail, it's time to tidy up the tips and the handle. You could probably lighten the tips, although I can't see how wide (heavy) they are. Also cut off some of that excess wood after the string groove. You should also round the handle, but try not to cut in an arrow shelf. Trust me, you will regret that later on. If you insist on some kind of arrow shelf, it's better to glue on a shelf as opposed to cut a window into the handle. A few pieces of leather or some cork is plenty to make a tiny bulge that will hold the arrow. Wrap it with leather and presto.
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Thanks DarkSoul, now that you point them out I do see the stiff spot on the right limb. That weak spot on the right side has been there ever since I started tillering. I thought about wrapping it with sinew because I think it's in the wood.
The tips do need some work, especially after I cut them off.
I have been toying with the idea of a shelf or just making a nice sleek handle with a "external" shelf built up with leather or something. Thanks again, Patrick.